Rapture - For or Against
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Red Sky at Morning
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I like the way you think! Just the facts, forget the polemics.My aim here is to summarize all the passages you guys provide (for/against) rapture into this thread for anyone to read and come to their own conclusion. Good science
Red Sky at Morning
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Useful reference on Adventist eschatology
Seventh-day Adventist eschatology
The Seventh-day Adventist Church holds a unique system of eschatological (or end-times) beliefs. Adventist eschatology, which is based on a historicistinterpretation of prophecy, is characterised principally by the premillennial Second Coming of Christ. Traditionally, the church has taught that the Second Coming will be preceded by a global crisis with the Sabbath as a central issue[citation needed]. At Jesus' return, the righteous will be taken to heaven for one thousand years. After the millennium the unsaved cease to exist as they will be punished by annihilation while the saved will live on a recreated Earth for eternity.
The foremost sources are the biblical books of Daniel and Revelation. Jesus' statements in Matthew 24 for instance, as well as many other Bible verses are also used. The classic Adventist commentary on the end-times was Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation. The writings of Ellen G. White have also been highly influential, particularly the last part of her book The Great Controversy. "Prophecy seminars", developed since the mid-20th century, have been a key popular source.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church holds a unique system of eschatological (or end-times) beliefs. Adventist eschatology, which is based on a historicistinterpretation of prophecy, is characterised principally by the premillennial Second Coming of Christ. Traditionally, the church has taught that the Second Coming will be preceded by a global crisis with the Sabbath as a central issue[citation needed]. At Jesus' return, the righteous will be taken to heaven for one thousand years. After the millennium the unsaved cease to exist as they will be punished by annihilation while the saved will live on a recreated Earth for eternity.
The foremost sources are the biblical books of Daniel and Revelation. Jesus' statements in Matthew 24 for instance, as well as many other Bible verses are also used. The classic Adventist commentary on the end-times was Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation. The writings of Ellen G. White have also been highly influential, particularly the last part of her book The Great Controversy. "Prophecy seminars", developed since the mid-20th century, have been a key popular source.
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Karlysymon
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I've moved your post here for obvious reasons.The other day I was listening to a Christian talk show and the radio host made the point of bringing the listeners attention to how the Cross is used in so man TV and Hollywood movies. Now, we all know how much programming happens in those movies and how much is subliminal or under our conscious awareness. He has made it a point to observe for this phenomenon and this is what he has to say; whenever a cross is in obscure view in so many of these shows, there is often a negative moment occuring that elicits emotions of distrust and often very contradictory feelings. Without even knowing it the cross is being associated with these feelings.
Have you ever run across someone who just hates the cross and all that it stands for without even knowing why.
Be as wise as serpents, gentle as doves...unless of course a serpent is trying to punch you in the face
I've never heard that theory before and it's certainly an interesting one. So upon reading your post, i decided to rack my brain for any movie with a memorable scene with the cross in it to test your theory. So here's Nick Cage's 2014 "Left Behind" movie and what do you have to say about the theory you've fleshed out in this trailer...does it hold up?
This is a christian movie correct?
Red Sky at Morning
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I think the Hollywood version of “Left Behind” is very much a twist (and a dilution) or the original story. Just saying.
I don't think a christian themed movie would be the one to look at for what is aspoused about the cruxifix
The Truth About 'Left Behind'
On October 3, 2014, another Left Behind movie was theatrically released. It’s actually the fourth film in the Left Behind series of movies and a reboot of the 2000 release called Left Behind: The Movie. The script is based on the bestselling book series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. All the films have received mostly negative reviews, had mediocre box office runs, and were criticized for low production quality.
While this version rose to prominence because it stars Academy Award winning actor, Nicolas Cage, it's also one of the worst-reviewed films of 2014 (Rotten Tomatoes rated it at 2%, and Metacritic gave it a score of 12 out of 100). Still, it's managed to gross $11 million worldwide. Is it because it’s another apocalyptic disaster film or is there still interest among many in the popular rapture theory?
Some are startled to discover the diverse views floating around about the end times. Jim Denison, who attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, grew up accepting the "pre-tribulation rapture" presented in the film as fact, but he was surprised when he took a class in college on the book of Revelation. In a recent article, he shares:
“ … discovered that conservative biblical scholars have held at least seven different approaches to the end times. In addition to the rapture position (usually called ‘premillennial dispensational’), popular options today range from ‘preterist’ (the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century, with no predictive elements) to ‘historic premillenialists’ (Jesus will return before the millennium, but there will be no rapture), to ‘amillennial’ (Revelation is intentionally symbolic, with no literal rapture or millennium), to ‘postmillennial’ (Jesus will return after the millennium).” [1]
Denison then writes, “Whether he raptures the church before (or during, or after) a Great Tribulation, or returns to begin the millennium, or simply returns to end history and begin eternity, is not the practical question. You and I have no say in the matter.” That’s exactly right.
But the next question should be, “Does God have a say in the matter?”
Instead of throwing up our hands when many disagree about the final events of earth’s history, perhaps it would be wiser to search the Scriptures and set aside the theories of people. Doctrinal confusion is no reason for ignoring or minimizing Bible truth.
Christ never taught that His coming would be two different events separated by seven years, with the antichrist supposedly coming into power during this tribulation period. The word “rapture” is not even found in the Bible. There is nothing secret about Jesus’ return. Scripture states that when Jesus comes there will be a resurrection and all the saints will meet Him in the air, all at the same time at the end of the world. Those left behind are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
If you are counting on a second chance at salvation based on the rapture theory for yourself, family, or friends, you will want to rethink this view before saying, “Oh well, I guess it doesn’t really matter.” There are serious consequences to being left behind if you don’t study your Bible carefully!
Link.
On October 3, 2014, another Left Behind movie was theatrically released. It’s actually the fourth film in the Left Behind series of movies and a reboot of the 2000 release called Left Behind: The Movie. The script is based on the bestselling book series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. All the films have received mostly negative reviews, had mediocre box office runs, and were criticized for low production quality.
While this version rose to prominence because it stars Academy Award winning actor, Nicolas Cage, it's also one of the worst-reviewed films of 2014 (Rotten Tomatoes rated it at 2%, and Metacritic gave it a score of 12 out of 100). Still, it's managed to gross $11 million worldwide. Is it because it’s another apocalyptic disaster film or is there still interest among many in the popular rapture theory?
Some are startled to discover the diverse views floating around about the end times. Jim Denison, who attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, grew up accepting the "pre-tribulation rapture" presented in the film as fact, but he was surprised when he took a class in college on the book of Revelation. In a recent article, he shares:
“ … discovered that conservative biblical scholars have held at least seven different approaches to the end times. In addition to the rapture position (usually called ‘premillennial dispensational’), popular options today range from ‘preterist’ (the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century, with no predictive elements) to ‘historic premillenialists’ (Jesus will return before the millennium, but there will be no rapture), to ‘amillennial’ (Revelation is intentionally symbolic, with no literal rapture or millennium), to ‘postmillennial’ (Jesus will return after the millennium).” [1]
Denison then writes, “Whether he raptures the church before (or during, or after) a Great Tribulation, or returns to begin the millennium, or simply returns to end history and begin eternity, is not the practical question. You and I have no say in the matter.” That’s exactly right.
But the next question should be, “Does God have a say in the matter?”
Instead of throwing up our hands when many disagree about the final events of earth’s history, perhaps it would be wiser to search the Scriptures and set aside the theories of people. Doctrinal confusion is no reason for ignoring or minimizing Bible truth.
Christ never taught that His coming would be two different events separated by seven years, with the antichrist supposedly coming into power during this tribulation period. The word “rapture” is not even found in the Bible. There is nothing secret about Jesus’ return. Scripture states that when Jesus comes there will be a resurrection and all the saints will meet Him in the air, all at the same time at the end of the world. Those left behind are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
If you are counting on a second chance at salvation based on the rapture theory for yourself, family, or friends, you will want to rethink this view before saying, “Oh well, I guess it doesn’t really matter.” There are serious consequences to being left behind if you don’t study your Bible carefully!
Link.
Red Sky at Morning
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I had a look at th and one of the comments really intrigued me….
“Since Christ did say "...the meek shall inherit the earth..." imagine those who think they are saved/ "called" by rapturing, when in fact those that are Left Behind, are the saved ones!?
I really hadn’t come across many Adventists till visiting this forum as I don’t believe it’s very prevalent in the UK. What does seem to be common in what I am hearing from the SDAs is that there will likely be an event interpreted by some as the Rapture, but this will be a deceptive event. The real, true Christians will be those “left behind” while [presumably] those who have given their itching ears to false teachers will be caught up. The notion that getting left behind is a good thing worries me (for them).
Stucky
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How would you interpret Matthew 24:37-41
"37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."
GOD's timing not ours and that sure sounds like a being caught up moment right there.
So lets look at the "WHOLE" chapter think its a good one.
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Red Sky at Morning
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Now this is getting interesting! Which group of people is Jesus addressing in Matthew 24? The answer you give will have considerable bearing on your eschatology @Stucky
Part 34 - Matthew 24:40-42 One Will Be Taken by Thomas Ice
Thomas Ice :: Part 34 - Matthew 24:40-42 One Will Be Taken
www.blueletterbible.org
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Karlysymon
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I've actually never bothered to look into who funded the movie and why Hollywood would go to great lengths to toy with Christian eschatology. Granted, the Christian market is lucrative...they'll make money from the moviegoer...but a financial incentive cannot possibly be the only incentive to make the movie, right?
Iam yet to hear a Christian actor or the christian broadcasting networks that promote these films actually espouse the criticism you just levelled at them.
Yes, there is an older "Left behind" film with Kirk Cameron. I wanted to mention it to Red...that since he didn't like my original choice with Nick Cage, the older version, a "proper" Christian film with Christian actors (that was shown on all the Christian networks back in the day) would perhaps suffice? Anyway, i'll have to rewatch both of them to test the theory that @Jackfists mentioned.
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Karlysymon
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I thought i would use my scripture reading for last night to start a thread but your post has given me the opportunity to explore the idea here. I want to follow up on your question to Stucky aswell. I won't write down all the verses, so people can look them up themselves. Who do you think was being adressed here, admonished to "stand firm", if the Church is going to be raptured and spared from what we all know is coming (digital ID, mandatory vaxx, martyrdom, persecution etc)?Now this is getting interesting! Which group of people is Jesus addressing in Matthew 24? The answer you give will have considerable bearing on your eschatology @Stucky
Part 34 - Matthew 24:40-42 One Will Be Taken by Thomas Ice
Thomas Ice :: Part 34 - Matthew 24:40-42 One Will Be Taken
Revelation 14:12
"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints, who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus."
James 5:7-8
Be patient, then brothers until the LORD's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield it's valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm because the LORD's coming is near
2 Peter 3:11-14, Rev 15:2-3 (saints who are victorious over the beast, its image and number of its name), Luke 21:17-19, Mark 13:23, James 1:12, Rev 3:11, etc
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As the topic addresses rapture for or against - i'm for it why would i be against it? Question would be why are believers getting the full wrath of GOD if not raptured? Not condemation for those in Christ JESUS so.... the wrath is stored up for those that are condemned not those that aren't under GODs wrath just saying and scripture points this out. There will be those left that maybe believe in GOD per se but don't believe in Jesus & lets say the husband does wife doesn't that is matthew one taken one left. Think alot will come to realize that oh GOD does exist...and then now what...those are the ones to pray for.
A Freeman
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What is commonly referred to as "the rapture", where "good people" are spared the trial/tribulation of this world growing darker by the day (if not by the hour) is a Christian myth based upon a gross misunderstanding of Scriptures.
The key to understanding Scripture is to see it through SPIRITUAL eyes rather than human ones, exactly as Christ (the immortal Spirit-Being and Son of God) said through the mouth of Jesus (the mortal human/Son of Man) in John 3:3-7.
The Scriptures plainly state the following:
1) that there MUST be a falling away first (2 Thess. 2:3-12), i.e. that this very dark and evil world MUST get exponentially darker and more evil as we approach Judgment Day to awaken the Elect from their spiritual slumber (Dan. 12:1-2);
2) that Christ WILL be here again during these end-times (Matt. 24), in a NEW human body (from Joseph-Ephraim, NOT Judah -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12) to bring spiritual enlightenment to this very dark world, thereby gathering the Elect (Rev. 7:4-9, 14:1-4);
3) that Christ's Second Coming will be as a thief in the night for most (1 Thess. 5:1-7, 2 Pet. 3:10), i.e. most will remain spiritually asleep and in the dark, and thus unable to see The Light of the world;
4) that when His Mission to gather the Elect has been completed, Christ will shed the human body He is CURRENTLY using (Matt. 24:28), and be seen by everyone on Earth (Matt. 24:30, Rev. 1:7), coming in the "Clouds" with the heavenly host (aka "eagles"), i.e. with great power and glory, to begin THE REAPING (Rev. 14:14-20); and
5) everyone will be judged according to their works (Matt. 16:27, Rev. 20:12-15) by Christ (John 5:22).
Anyone who believes they have some sort of "get out of jail free" card because they are "good people" who "believe in Jesus" is sadly mistaken.
We are all sinners (i.e. criminals) who think, say and do evil things, which is exactly why this Earth is so dark and getting darker. Only by living (believing) and thus applying Christ's TRUE Teachings (keeping God's Law and Doing His Will here on Earth) can we allow His Light to shine through us.
And that's exactly what The Light needs to do to burn out our own imperfections, which is the only way any of us can truly help another.
We will ALL face Judgment. What we do between now and Judgment Day (the day and the hour that no one but Father knows -- Matt. 24:36) matters. It's time to wake-up.
The key to understanding Scripture is to see it through SPIRITUAL eyes rather than human ones, exactly as Christ (the immortal Spirit-Being and Son of God) said through the mouth of Jesus (the mortal human/Son of Man) in John 3:3-7.
The Scriptures plainly state the following:
1) that there MUST be a falling away first (2 Thess. 2:3-12), i.e. that this very dark and evil world MUST get exponentially darker and more evil as we approach Judgment Day to awaken the Elect from their spiritual slumber (Dan. 12:1-2);
2) that Christ WILL be here again during these end-times (Matt. 24), in a NEW human body (from Joseph-Ephraim, NOT Judah -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12) to bring spiritual enlightenment to this very dark world, thereby gathering the Elect (Rev. 7:4-9, 14:1-4);
3) that Christ's Second Coming will be as a thief in the night for most (1 Thess. 5:1-7, 2 Pet. 3:10), i.e. most will remain spiritually asleep and in the dark, and thus unable to see The Light of the world;
4) that when His Mission to gather the Elect has been completed, Christ will shed the human body He is CURRENTLY using (Matt. 24:28), and be seen by everyone on Earth (Matt. 24:30, Rev. 1:7), coming in the "Clouds" with the heavenly host (aka "eagles"), i.e. with great power and glory, to begin THE REAPING (Rev. 14:14-20); and
5) everyone will be judged according to their works (Matt. 16:27, Rev. 20:12-15) by Christ (John 5:22).
Anyone who believes they have some sort of "get out of jail free" card because they are "good people" who "believe in Jesus" is sadly mistaken.
We are all sinners (i.e. criminals) who think, say and do evil things, which is exactly why this Earth is so dark and getting darker. Only by living (believing) and thus applying Christ's TRUE Teachings (keeping God's Law and Doing His Will here on Earth) can we allow His Light to shine through us.
And that's exactly what The Light needs to do to burn out our own imperfections, which is the only way any of us can truly help another.
We will ALL face Judgment. What we do between now and Judgment Day (the day and the hour that no one but Father knows -- Matt. 24:36) matters. It's time to wake-up.
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A Freeman
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One verse that is repeatedly misquoted and thus misunderstood is Matthew 24:27, where many English translations have wrongly translated the Greek word ἀστραπὴ (astrapē), which means LIGHTENING in English (NOT "lightning").
The KJV 1611 and the King of kings' Bible correctly translate that term, to keep from rendering the verse nonsensical.
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightening cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the West; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
Lightning is a brief flash of light in the night sky, that is quickly swallowed up again by the darkness. Lightning obviously can and does come from multiple directions. In fact, lightning rarely strikes twice in the same place, making it very unpredictable.
In stark contrast, the sun appears every day in a very orderly and predictable manner, always coming out of the East and shining forth unto the West. And the sun brings with it light, warmth (love) and LIFE, as it destroys the darkness.
Christ, the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God, is also referred to as "the Sun of Righteousness" (Mal. 4:2) and "the Light of the World" (Koks -- John 8:3, KJV -- John 8:12) because His ETERNAL LIGHT is the same today as it was yesterday, and as it will be tomorrow and forever more. And that eternal light brings eternal, spiritual ENLIGHTENMENT.
The KJV 1611 and the King of kings' Bible correctly translate that term, to keep from rendering the verse nonsensical.
MATTHEW 24:27 1611 KJV For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto the West: so...
Matthew 24:27 1611 KJV: For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightening cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the West; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
Lightning is a brief flash of light in the night sky, that is quickly swallowed up again by the darkness. Lightning obviously can and does come from multiple directions. In fact, lightning rarely strikes twice in the same place, making it very unpredictable.
In stark contrast, the sun appears every day in a very orderly and predictable manner, always coming out of the East and shining forth unto the West. And the sun brings with it light, warmth (love) and LIFE, as it destroys the darkness.
Christ, the Firstborn/Eldest Son of God, is also referred to as "the Sun of Righteousness" (Mal. 4:2) and "the Light of the World" (Koks -- John 8:3, KJV -- John 8:12) because His ETERNAL LIGHT is the same today as it was yesterday, and as it will be tomorrow and forever more. And that eternal light brings eternal, spiritual ENLIGHTENMENT.
First there will be a resurrection... and after that a rapture.
1 Thess 4 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
When ? Well it's after the mark of the beast...
Rev 20 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
You may have heard that the elect or chosen ones are not appointed to suffer God's wrath... and God's wrath begins at the 6th seal in Revelation.
At the 5th seal we are told a lot of christians will be persecuted and killed... and that might naturally trigger God's fury.
So when is the 6th seal ? Well when we are in the 2nd seal now and it seems like a seal a year... then 2026 or thereabouts.
1 Thess 4 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
When ? Well it's after the mark of the beast...
Rev 20 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
You may have heard that the elect or chosen ones are not appointed to suffer God's wrath... and God's wrath begins at the 6th seal in Revelation.
At the 5th seal we are told a lot of christians will be persecuted and killed... and that might naturally trigger God's fury.
So when is the 6th seal ? Well when we are in the 2nd seal now and it seems like a seal a year... then 2026 or thereabouts.