Islam Cross Examined

Thunderian

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:):rolleyes:
https://islamqa.info/en/98689

"However, we would like to point out that Allah, may He be exalted, cannot be described as masculine or feminine in any true sense; rather that (use of the masculine pronoun) is necessary for the purpose of communication in human languages and what people need in communicating ideas about Allah. Everything that is either masculine or feminine is something that is created and Allah, may He be exalted, is the Creator of the masculine and feminine.

“And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female”

[al-Najm 53:45].

Exalted be Allah above having any rival or peer, spouse or child.

“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.”

[al-An ‘a am 6:101]. "

“Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power! (He is free) from what they attribute unto Him!”

[as-Saaffaat 37:180].
@TempestOfTempo says Allah isn't a he, but the Quran says he is.
 

DesertRose

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@TempestOfTempo says Allah isn't a he, but the Quran says he is.
I see and pray tell why did thou not read my response? Here I brought it for thee to this page.....read carefully and ponder.;)

https://islamqa.info/en/98689

"However, we would like to point out that Allah, may He be exalted, cannot be described as masculine or feminine in any true sense; rather that (use of the masculine pronoun) is necessary for the purpose of communication in human languages and what people need in communicating ideas about Allah. Everything that is either masculine or feminine is something that is created and Allah, may He be exalted, is the Creator of the masculine and feminine.

“And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female”

[al-Najm 53:45].

Exalted be Allah above having any rival or peer, spouse or child.

“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.”

[al-An ‘a am 6:101]. "

“Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power! (He is free) from what they attribute unto Him!”

[as-Saaffaat 37:180].
 

DesertRose

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So Allah could also be called she?
Read the link, Thunderian. You will get your answer it is in regards to the structures in grammar and not actual gender.

"It should be noted that one of the basic principles of communication is that everything is to be spoken of in such a way that it makes it stand out and distinguishes its gender. This is an ancient phenomenon in human languages, but there are some things that have nothing to do with real gender, as is the case with inanimate objects such as stones and mountains, and concepts such as justice and generosity, and so on. In these cases, masculinity and femininity are not applicable in the true sense of these two words. It seems that this is the reason why some languages divide nouns into three categories: masculine, feminine, and a third category which in Indo-European languages is called neuter; this refers to that which is neither masculine nor feminine.

But not all human languages have this category. Semitic languages, for example, divide nouns of the third category, which is neuter, between the first two categories. So nouns in these languages are all either masculine or feminine.

This is also the case in the French language, in which all nouns can only be either masculine or feminine. English differs from French in this regard. "
Same link as above.

“It is He Who has created the heavens and the earth in truth, and on the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) He will say: "Be!", - and it shall become. His Word is the truth. His will be the dominion on the Day when the trumpet will be blown. All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the All-Wise, Well-Aware (of all things).”

[al-An‘aam 6:73]

“And He it is Who originates the creation, then will repeat it (after it has been perished), and this is easier for Him. His is the highest description (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”

[ar-Room 30:27]

“It is He (Allah) Who is the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) in the heaven and the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) on the earth. And He is the All-Wise, the All-Knower.”

[az-Zukhruf 43:84].
 

Thunderian

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Read the link, Thunderian. You will get your answer it is in regards to the structures in grammar and not actual gender.

"It should be noted that one of the basic principles of communication is that everything is to be spoken of in such a way that it makes it stand out and distinguishes its gender. This is an ancient phenomenon in human languages, but there are some things that have nothing to do with real gender, as is the case with inanimate objects such as stones and mountains, and concepts such as justice and generosity, and so on. In these cases, masculinity and femininity are not applicable in the true sense of these two words. It seems that this is the reason why some languages divide nouns into three categories: masculine, feminine, and a third category which in Indo-European languages is called neuter; this refers to that which is neither masculine nor feminine.

But not all human languages have this category. Semitic languages, for example, divide nouns of the third category, which is neuter, between the first two categories. So nouns in these languages are all either masculine or feminine.

This is also the case in the French language, in which all nouns can only be either masculine or feminine. English differs from French in this regard. "
Same link as above.

“It is He Who has created the heavens and the earth in truth, and on the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) He will say: "Be!", - and it shall become. His Word is the truth. His will be the dominion on the Day when the trumpet will be blown. All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the All-Wise, Well-Aware (of all things).”

[al-An‘aam 6:73]

“And He it is Who originates the creation, then will repeat it (after it has been perished), and this is easier for Him. His is the highest description (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”

[ar-Room 30:27]

“It is He (Allah) Who is the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) in the heaven and the only Ilah (God to be worshipped) on the earth. And He is the All-Wise, the All-Knower.”

[az-Zukhruf 43:84].
Yes, I read it. It says that Allah has no gender, but Allah can only be referred to in the masculine because females are inferior, while the masculine is "nobler and more sublime".

And, as if that's not compelling enough of an argument, the imam reminds us that we "will not find anyone, knowledgeable or ignorant, monotheist or polytheist, who does not refer to God, may He be exalted, as “He”. If anyone were to refer to Him in the feminine, as this poor girl said, he would be opposed and accused of ignorance and clear misguidance."

In other words, everyone knows God is a "he", stupid.

How does God reveal himself in a language that doesn't even have a way of properly referring to him?
 
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Ron Wyatt was a fraud.
You would say that wouldn't you?
However his critics attack him for research/conclusions related to the ark of covenant.
His research and discovery of the rock or Horeb, Mt Sinai and so forth have not been criticised because it's kind of hard to do so.

Now even in the hadith mt Sinai(at-tur...the mount) was known as a place in the Arab peninsula. Jews and Muslims were visiting it to pray.
Yet your side...the delusional one..believed 40 years in the wilderness occured in the Sinai peninsula...
Think about that? Your side got its own geography wrong yet wants to tell us Petra is Mecca. Delusional.
Paul said Sinai was in Arabia. Sinai is also part of "sham" not Arabia.
 

Thunderian

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You would say that wouldn't you?
However his critics attack him for research/conclusions related to the ark of covenant.
His research and discovery of the rock or Horeb, Mt Sinai and so forth have not been criticised because it's kind of hard to do so.
So as long as he agrees with you on the stuff that's important, who cares what he lied about.

You have to realize that doesn't bolster your arguments.
 
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So as long as he agrees with you on the stuff that's important, who cares what he lied about.

You have to realize that doesn't bolster your arguments.
I only mentioned his name in light of the fact Mt Sinai and the other important "wilderness" sites are in arabia. Ron Wyatt's videos on this reveal enough info and are well known......but that was already known by Muslims.

Good look refuting my actual points though.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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LOL
I did not see this... :D


Discredited by whom?

The onus is actually on you, here. Either islam can stand up to scrutiny, or it cannot. OP has received maybe one semi-legit response, and the rest are just garden variety insults.. the stuff of petulant children.

Can we talk about Islam without invoking the thinly veiled contempt for Jesus (not "isa")?

Truth has nothing to fear from cross examination...

Islam, on the other hand, is not looking so good right now.
You might like this one from CS Lewis on God and gender...

https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=04-01-005-f
 
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Did you have any points that you didn't use liars to help you make?
Ron Wyatt is a christian so it makes sense that he's a liar on some level, but at least he got it right about Sinai...
'a broken clock is right at least twice a day' right?


See if you people have the location of jebel al lawz, sinai, the wilderness etc so wrong for such a long time, what the credibility do you even have?
you didn't even know where Jesus was baptised ie the diff between Bethany beyond the jordan and Bethany.
In the Torah locations like Kadesh, Kadesh Barnea, are not even 'easy to identify, what exists is just interpretation.
A guy like Ron Wyatt didn't 'discover' jebel al lawz for example he only found out about it whilst it was already fenced by the saudis.

I also find it piss funny you're trying to discredit these points when they actually would be a proof for the bible. You're rejecting/arguing against purely because for you it's an ego thing.
You should be praising ron wyatt for showing you something you would not otherwise know.
 

Thunderian

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I also find it piss funny you're trying to discredit these points when they actually would be a proof for the bible. You're rejecting/arguing against purely because for you it's an ego thing.
You should be praising ron wyatt for showing you something you would not otherwise know.
I'm being consistent. The truth doesn't need to be supported by lies, or liars.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Ron Wyatt is a christian so it makes sense that he's a liar on some level, but at least he got it right about Sinai...
'a broken clock is right at least twice a day' right?


See if you people have the location of jebel al lawz, sinai, the wilderness etc so wrong for such a long time, what the credibility do you even have?
you didn't even know where Jesus was baptised ie the diff between Bethany beyond the jordan and Bethany.
In the Torah locations like Kadesh, Kadesh Barnea, are not even 'easy to identify, what exists is just interpretation.
A guy like Ron Wyatt didn't 'discover' jebel al lawz for example he only found out about it whilst it was already fenced by the saudis.

I also find it piss funny you're trying to discredit these points when they actually would be a proof for the bible. You're rejecting/arguing against purely because for you it's an ego thing.
You should be praising ron wyatt for showing you something you would not otherwise know.
I don't know much about Ron Wyatt but as regards the real location of Mt Sinai, I have no issue with it being in Saudi (ancient Midian area) at all!


And also "The Exodus Case" by Lenart Moller. A good line of investigation.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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As this thread is "Islam Cross Examined", not Ron Wyatt, I suggest moving on - the information and attempted rebuttal of the Qibla information is available for others to review.

The next area I wanted to discuss was Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī. Is this a body of writing Muslims here feel confident on? If so, why, if not why?

 
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^^
The imam is shia. Shias have their own source of hadith and not any of the sunni imams.


Hadith collections are meant to be taken as sources of historical information.
The issues of contention, the ones to be wary of, are any that have potential for political design or later sectarian design.
So it's important to have a high level of intelligence and knowledge to know what's what.

The one i like listening to generally on this topic is Mufti Abu Layth.

incase you think this guy is anti-islam, he is anything but. He is highly regarded by many sunnis inc myself. The only people who seem to be attacking his views are those who are sectarianists, extreme, backward, judgemental or ignorant about him.

So if you were thinking you'd found a new stick to beat islam with, fail yet again. We're already way ahead of you.
Although i do urge you to listen to the entire speech.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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^^
The imam is shia. Shias have their own source of hadith and not any of the sunni imams.


Hadith collections are meant to be taken as sources of historical information.
The issues of contention, the ones to be wary of, are any that have potential for political design or later sectarian design.
So it's important to have a high level of intelligence and knowledge to know what's what.

The one i like listening to generally on this topic is Mufti Abu Layth.

incase you think this guy is anti-islam, he is anything but. He is highly regarded by many sunnis inc myself. The only people who seem to be attacking his views are those who are sectarianism, extreme, backward, judgemental or ignorant about him.

So if you were thinking you'd found a new stick to beat islam with, fail yet again. We're already way ahead of you.
Although i do urge you to listen to the entire speech.
Don't be so defensive ;-) The issue I had is simply the gap in time between Muhammad and these hadith and just considering what historical water may have moved under the bridge in the gap.

As many Muslims seem keen on these writings, I just wondered why? They remind me of the issues UK history have over the true identity of Richard III. Accounts written later here were not without political agendas, as Shakespeare's play illustrates.
 
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Don't be so defensive ;-) The issue I had is simply the gap in time between Muhammad and these hadith and just considering what historical water may have moved under the bridge in the gap.

As many Muslims seem keen on these writings, I just wondered why? They remind me of the issues UK history have over the true identity of Richard III. Accounts written later here were not without political agendas, as Shakespeare's play illustrates.
i'll give you an example
a year ago i got into some fairly heated discussions with 1-2 muslims on here on the topic of astrology, angelology etc. I quoted a hadith where the prophet SAW initially forbade 'incantations' (a form of magic). He was later questioned by someone who insisted that his form of incantation was for healing people from scorpion bites. He was asked to recite his incantation and the prophet SAW said "as long as there is no shirk (polythiesm) or harm/evil in it, you are encouraged to do it" (not these exact words but you get the gist of it).

The logic i was using here was that incantation (called Ruqya) in islam and yet incantations are a type of magic. Ie altering physical reality with words. Although these days we understand matter is energy anyway. The point here was there are forms of magic that are sanctioned in islam and that we can called 'white magic' OR in the case of ruqya/incantations 'ruqyah al shariah'.
To these posts, a certain @Etagloc responded by saying something like
"i used to read the quran and it felt like it was magic" (in an evil way of course).

A year later, he was posting mufti abu layth content to attack him...implying he is an anti-christ (dajjal) type figure too. I defended abu layth...and then he accused me of being a Quranite, a hypocrite/munafiq (in the way Jesus accused the pharisees) and possibly not even a muslim.

We have far too many @Etagloc type entities amongst us. Abu Layth also pointed out in the clip i posted, very early on that this phenomenon of elevating hadith is relatively recent ie past 100 years.
you know what occured in that time? crude oil in arab lands, making house saud filthy rich, meaning their salafist sectarian agenda began...
and these people, are the furthest thing from islam despite appearance.
IRONICALLY they are condemned in the hadith prophecies (although they insist it doesnt refer to them but to someone else ie shias/sufis).

Also given we were discussing Jerusalem/islam before, one of the major signs to prove a religious group is 'right with God' is it's position in Jerusalem/the temple mt.

Carefully read this hadith
(1) Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman: The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speakour language" I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state." (Book #56, Hadith #803)

i'll explain some context before i get to the larger context
the wahabi/salafi sect 'rose' out of a context where sufism became rampant and corrupt, kind of like how the protestant movement rejected catholicism at a point where catholicism became 'hijacked' right? because the traditions of the church got to a level where, the church was standing in the way of people's connection to God...ie the church first, then God.
So one of the biggest ideas amongst muslims in my lifetime has been the word 'bidah' (meaning Innovation). Ie they say
"if the prophet SAW did not do it, it is BIDAH"
so the wahabi/salafi sect is verry vocal and active in their fight against bidah. They are puritanical, ie trying to 'cleanse' islam..trying to eliminate the evil. On that, they have gradually began accusing regular muslims (remember sufism is a dimension of islam, the majority of muslims follow some sufism to varying degrees).


Now i'll explain the hadith overall
'there would be evil after this good'
the biggest proof of this 'evil' was that muslims became materialistic, greedy/competitive, lost the way with God...and then the first crusade happened and muslims lost Al-Aqsa. get it?

What happened in that time period? sufism...hence the biggest/most famous sufi personalities appeared in the world
read up on these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moinuddin_Chishti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadir_Gilani
sufi islam regenerated islam under next contexts...
for example, moinuddin chishti went to india in a time when muslims had been attacking india/hindus for centuries. Yet many converted to islam at his hands because he (and many other sufis in that t ime) had a lot in common with hindu vedanta tradition ie they were focused on spirituality more.
So then the hadith says
I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them."
ie 'they will be good, but they wont follow me 100%, they will innocate'
this sums up sufism perfectly..and the proof of this 'good' is that muslims took back al Aqsa. in fact Sallahuddin Ayubi was blessed by Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani as a child.
Now consider how long sufi islam has stood ie how long muslims held Al-Aqsa from that time? it wasnt until the rise of colonialists in europe that gradually led to the decline of islam...
THIS is where the real shit began...the things you're asking ie 'why'
the mughals and ottomons were barely religious...and as a result there were religious mobs who kind of ruled the streets and even the emperors/sultans had to gain their approval before taking power. A lot like US presidents these days....or actually no diff to any muslim leader fo that matter, their power is only given to them as long as they please the right people. These mobs..took the religion whatever way they chose...
effectively you had a pharisee type situation where you had these sufi sheikhs deliberately spreading ignorance so they could take advantage of people, they built shrines and made them into places of business etc.
long story short, wahabism rose out of that context...
and yet in that hadith the prophet SAW said

I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speakour language"

why so? it's because the wahabi sect believed in killing muslims..and they did that..and then they rebelled against ottomon rule so they could rule Al-Aqsa/palestine.
You know what happened there LOL.


I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief."
this was fulfilled when they fought against the ottomons.


so we live in this period today...

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state." (Book #56, Hadith #803)

this is considered the period before dajjal/the anti-christ.

Whether you would accept this 'prophecy' or not, the events/groups ive related to it have all played a part in where we stand today.
Though, in the last 100 years it's become easier to spread certain types of narratives through books, then through videos/audio and now youtube..
the idea of Sahih Al bukhari hadith as being 'unquestionable' is because of the sects involved.
simple.
man says 'this hadith might be wrong' what happens? it isnt the ordinary person who does anything, it is the sectarian mob.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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i'll give you an example
a year ago i got into some fairly heated discussions with 1-2 muslims on here on the topic of astrology, angelology etc. I quoted a hadith where the prophet SAW initially forbade 'incantations' (a form of magic). He was later questioned by someone who insisted that his form of incantation was for healing people from scorpion bites. He was asked to recite his incantation and the prophet SAW said "as long as there is no shirk (polythiesm) or harm/evil in it, you are encouraged to do it" (not these exact words but you get the gist of it).

The logic i was using here was that incantation (called Ruqya) in islam and yet incantations are a type of magic. Ie altering physical reality with words. Although these days we understand matter is energy anyway. The point here was there are forms of magic that are sanctioned in islam and that we can called 'white magic' OR in the case of ruqya/incantations 'ruqyah al shariah'.
To these posts, a certain @Etagloc responded by saying something like
"i used to read the quran and it felt like it was magic" (in an evil way of course).

A year later, he was posting mufti abu layth content to attack him...implying he is an anti-christ (dajjal) type figure too. I defended abu layth...and then he accused me of being a Quranite, a hypocrite/munafiq (in the way Jesus accused the pharisees) and possibly not even a muslim.

We have far too many @Etagloc type entities amongst us. Abu Layth also pointed out in the clip i posted, very early on that this phenomenon of elevating hadith is relatively recent ie past 100 years.
you know what occured in that time? crude oil in arab lands, making house saud filthy rich, meaning their salafist sectarian agenda began...
and these people, are the furthest thing from islam despite appearance.
IRONICALLY they are condemned in the hadith prophecies (although they insist it doesnt refer to them but to someone else ie shias/sufis).

Also given we were discussing Jerusalem/islam before, one of the major signs to prove a religious group is 'right with God' is it's position in Jerusalem/the temple mt.

Carefully read this hadith
(1) Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman: The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speakour language" I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state." (Book #56, Hadith #803)

i'll explain some context before i get to the larger context
the wahabi/salafi sect 'rose' out of a context where sufism became rampant and corrupt, kind of like how the protestant movement rejected catholicism at a point where catholicism became 'hijacked' right? because the traditions of the church got to a level where, the church was standing in the way of people's connection to God...ie the church first, then God.
So one of the biggest ideas amongst muslims in my lifetime has been the word 'bidah' (meaning Innovation). Ie they say
"if the prophet SAW did not do it, it is BIDAH"
so the wahabi/salafi sect is verry vocal and active in their fight against bidah. They are puritanical, ie trying to 'cleanse' islam..trying to eliminate the evil. On that, they have gradually began accusing regular muslims (remember sufism is a dimension of islam, the majority of muslims follow some sufism to varying degrees).


Now i'll explain the hadith overall
'there would be evil after this good'
the biggest proof of this 'evil' was that muslims became materialistic, greedy/competitive, lost the way with God...and then the first crusade happened and muslims lost Al-Aqsa. get it?

What happened in that time period? sufism...hence the biggest/most famous sufi personalities appeared in the world
read up on these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moinuddin_Chishti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadir_Gilani
sufi islam regenerated islam under next contexts...
for example, moinuddin chishti went to india in a time when muslims had been attacking india/hindus for centuries. Yet many converted to islam at his hands because he (and many other sufis in that t ime) had a lot in common with hindu vedanta tradition ie they were focused on spirituality more.
So then the hadith says
I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them."
ie 'they will be good, but they wont follow me 100%, they will innocate'
this sums up sufism perfectly..and the proof of this 'good' is that muslims took back al Aqsa. in fact Sallahuddin Ayubi was blessed by Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani as a child.
Now consider how long sufi islam has stood ie how long muslims held Al-Aqsa from that time? it wasnt until the rise of colonialists in europe that gradually led to the decline of islam...
THIS is where the real shit began...the things you're asking ie 'why'
the mughals and ottomons were barely religious...and as a result there were religious mobs who kind of ruled the streets and even the emperors/sultans had to gain their approval before taking power. A lot like US presidents these days....or actually no diff to any muslim leader fo that matter, their power is only given to them as long as they please the right people. These mobs..took the religion whatever way they chose...
effectively you had a pharisee type situation where you had these sufi sheikhs deliberately spreading ignorance so they could take advantage of people, they built shrines and made them into places of business etc.
long story short, wahabism rose out of that context...
and yet in that hadith the prophet SAW said

I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speakour language"

why so? it's because the wahabi sect believed in killing muslims..and they did that..and then they rebelled against ottomon rule so they could rule Al-Aqsa/palestine.
You know what happened there LOL.


I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief."
this was fulfilled when they fought against the ottomons.


so we live in this period today...

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state." (Book #56, Hadith #803)

this is considered the period before dajjal/the anti-christ.

Whether you would accept this 'prophecy' or not, the events/groups ive related to it have all played a part in where we stand today.
Though, in the last 100 years it's become easier to spread certain types of narratives through books, then through videos/audio and now youtube..
the idea of Sahih Al bukhari hadith as being 'unquestionable' is because of the sects involved.
simple.
man says 'this hadith might be wrong' what happens? it isnt the ordinary person who does anything, it is the sectarian mob.
Very interesting observations. I will read through in more depth when I get five...
 
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The topic of magic/black magic etc...isnt relevant to this thread, i only mentioned it because it's an area where a lot of muslims dont deeply consider what's written in the hadith.

Fyi im a big supporter of 'ruqya' and do believe magic is neutral..ie matter is energy..intentions, words etc matter.
There are people who label things as evil because they are usually used for evil..but that doesnt mean there is no good in them.
Astral projection for example often causes more harm than good.
YET to me it is kind of like driving on a road with no knowledge of the road rules or even how to drive the car..and trying to find a place with no map...
so if a person is properly guided and has the basic theoretical insight, he/she will easily find their way.
The miracles in religion, are also a type of 'magic'...ie altering the physical through non-physical means.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Interesting - does Muhammad refer to Allah without a gender pronoun?
It states in the Quran basically "You all started calling God He, so for your convenience it is still allowed because that is a way we can have some understanding of our relationship. But make no mistake about it, God is neither he nor she but the Creator of males and females"....
Of course its said with much more eloquence and authority than my "translation" here, but I tried to covey the general, Islamic sentiment on the matter.
 
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