Islam Cross Examined

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“The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein, glorify Him and there is not a thing but glorifies His Praise. But you understand not their glorification. Truly, He is Ever Forbearing, Oft-Forgiving”

[al-Isra’ 17:44]


What this means is that every created being is in a state of submission to Allaah and worships Him in a manner appropriate to its situation. The sun, moon, stars, trees and animals are all in a state of subjugation to Allaah and prostrate to Him, and all of them worship Him in an appropriate manner. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“See you not that whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawaabb [moving (living) creatures, beasts], and many of mankind prostrate themselves to Allaah. But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allaah disgraces, none can honour him. Verily, Allaah does what He wills”

[al-Hajj 22:18]


Do you know why the Tawaf (circumambulation) around the Ka’aba is “Anticlockwise”?
Published on July 15, 2014







Modern Science has proved many things that confirms the importance of Tawaf around the Ka’aba “Anticlockwise.”


1) The Blood inside the human body begins its circulation “Anticlockwise”


2) The electrons of an atom revolve around its nucleus in the same manner as making Tawaf, in an anti-clockwise direction.


Considering the globe as a whole, you will notice that:


3) The moon revolves around the earth anti-clockwise.


4) The earth rotates around its own axis in an anti-clockwise direction.


5) The earth revolves around the sun in an anti-clockwise direction.


6) The planets of the Solar system revolvearound the sun in an anti-clockwise direction.


7) The Sun along with its whole Solar system orbit in the galaxy in an anti-clockwise direction.


8) All the galaxies orbit in the space in an anti-clockwise direction.


That is: When we revolve around the Ka’aba we are orbiting in the same direction as the whole universe.


Worshipping Allah in one direction. Praising Allah in one direction.


And all the creations of Allah from the tiniest particles, to the largest galaxies, along with the human race unite in praise of Allah.


When we tour around the Ka’aba, we are travelling in the land travelled by all the prophets of Allah from the prophet Adam (PBUH) to the prophet Mohamed (PBUH). The Ka’aba in Makkah is never free from circumambulators.


SubhanAllah.
Allahu a'lam. Allah knows best.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140715193031-55327442-do-you-know-why-the-tawaf-circumbulation-around-the-ka-aba-is-anticlockwise[
whenever i think of the tawaf i think of this



@Serveto most mosques have a Mihrab
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihrab
although this isn't always required.

personally im outright denying the entire claim of mosques facing petra. you have to also consider the source/people involved in the claim..they come up with every possible theory.
the petra claim was also made by an athiest on a channel 4 documentary i believe. Why would I take such claims seriously? another athiest, a british/israeli jewish historian claimed the old testament is a lie, just stories..solomon didnt exist.
If we were going down this road, the whole of the abrahimic tradition would be summed up as a lie.
You can't be selective here and make the petra claim but ignore similar type of arguments against christianity or judaism.

If you read the Torah, the whole 40 years in the wilderness story..the descriptions of places would lead you to accept that the 38 yrs were spent in the wilderness where Petra lay. 38 years in Petra. YET it's also the desert of Paran mentioned in the Torah being that wilderness. So many people thought Petra was the place where hagar/ismael settled.
HOWEVER
Paul said Mt Sinai was in arabia. As i said before Petra is in Jordan and jordan was part of historical rome..not arabia. The levant was not arabised until islam.
We know from Ron Wyatt's documentary, these places are all in modern day Saudi.

I mentioned ron wratt before and thundarian decided he couldnt accept this because he thinks ron wyatt is a liar....
then why have muslims long believed this to be true ie mt sinai is mentioned in hadiths as a place arabs and arab jews travelled to for prayer regularly.
Even TEMAN, a place mentioned in the bible, is modern day Yemen. So the landscape described in the Torah suddenly got a lot bigger.
Yet Teman is meant to be edomite territory.
We also can obviously see that the spring of water miracle described in the torah matches up with the islamic story of zamzam water. so is it a 1500 year old conspiracy, the zamzam water?
is all this a major satanic lie?
remember in the Torah it says

Genesis 21
17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid;God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.


consider this...
wherever this place was, Hagar and Ismael settled there..and God said HE would make the boy a great nation.

so if this happened in Petra...it obviously negates that argument. of course the entire islamic story commemorating these events eg the Hajj only supports it in a major way.

The greeks, persians, byzantines conquered the entire levant/gulf regions inc the holy land..but they didnt conquer the main arab peninsula, the desert etc because they probably thought it was too difficult. So out of that context it was effectively a land that was despised. Today even jews joke
'God gave us the land of milk and honey...and He gave the arabs oil, they got the better end of the deal'.

The story of the zamzam water, Mecca, Ismael etc also effectively glorifies the faith of Abraham. In the islamic version of events, Isaac wasnt born yet, Abraham was tested by being told to take Hagar and Ismael to the that place...ie a place that one would associate with emptiness, heat and death. He had to have a lot of faith to trust God in that moment...and so he left them. The zamzam miracle then occured when they were left alone. then 13-14 years later Abraham was told to return to the place. He returned to find a settlement of people aswell as a source of water, so he didnt immediately recognise the place. Out of that context he met Ismael, was told to sacrifice him...then they built the Kaba together and Abraham returned home.
Out of this context, Abraham was rewarded with Isaac.

In this version, it is a far far biggest test on Abraham which he passed. He was effectively being told to leave his only existing son, dead.

Now....the conversations i had with christians on this before, they told me
'no isaac was not given by works but faith'
'Abraham didnt have to do anything, Isaac was entirely a gift from God, His grace etc'
The Genesis version tells us Ismael was present when God gifted Abraham with Isaac. So how is it much of a sacrifice for Abraham when he knows in the back of his mind he already has another son? we also learn from the Torah that a son born from a slave is still given the same rights as a son born from wedlock, so it's not like he's thinking 'well i do have another son but he isnt actually considered my son' (ie like a bastard..because he wasnt one).

It's all too funny considering they say what happened to Jesus was a gift too yet Jesus clearly had to actually experience death on the cross after getting beat up, pelted with stones and rejected by people. Clearly in that story there was a degree of work required.

Putting it all together, if i was to believe these petra claims and the christian/jewish version of events on Ismael, iw ould be left to believe that God's promises amounted to nothing. Petra doesnt even exist anymore..who are the real ismaelites then?

Finally consider that the israelites lived in this place for 38 years. There is one jewish historian who's made the bold claim, that' Kadesh' mentioned in Numbers 13 is none other than MECCA!!

Numbers 10
11 On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the covenant law. 12 Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. 13 They set out, this first time, at the Lord’s command through Moses.


Numbers 13
They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.



Consider this


Numbers 13
6 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 They gave Moses this account: “We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.29 The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan.


this is particularly amusing because if Kadesh was in petra, then they would already be living in Jordan...they wouldnt need to be told about the Caananites nor would they need these select people to 'up' there and report back. It would be within a days walk.

0 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, “We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.



here's where the other issue springs up
the name of the place they stayed in for 38 years, in the desert of Paran was called Kadesh.
There are at least 2 different places called Kadesh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadesh_(biblical)

Desert of Zin
Desert of Paran
which one is it?

Numbers 13
3 So at the Lord’s command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran.

17 When Moses sent them to explore Canaan, he said, “Go up through the Negev and on into the hill country. 18 See what the land is like and whether the people who live there are strong or weak, few or many.19 What kind of land do they live in? Is it good or bad? What kind of towns do they live in? Are they unwalled or fortified? 20 How is the soil? Is it fertile or poor? Are there trees in it or not? Do your best to bring back some of the fruit of the land.” (It was the season for the first ripe grapes.)

21 So they went up and explored the land from the Desert of Zin as far as Rehob, toward Lebo Hamath.


so they left kadesh in the desert of Paran and went UP then got to the desert of Zin
or does it mean they were already in the desert of Zin and then went up?

it goes without saying they were in the desert of paran not zin from the beginning, so it's clearly that they went up to the desert of Zin.

21 So they went up and explored the land from the Desert of Zin as far as Rehob, toward Lebo Hamath. 22 They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived. (Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

right?
yet

Numbers 20
In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.
actually even muslims accept that Miriam probably did die in modern day PETRA.


this obv occured later. so there are 2 places called kadesh and this one in the desert of Zin is secondary.

Kadesh or Qadesh (in classical Hebrew Hebrew: קָדֵשׁ‬, from the root קדש‬ "holy"[1])
maybe wherever they chose to live for a while, was given the name Kadesh?

Now here's the next part
2 Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. 3 They quarreled with Moses and said, “If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord!4 Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? 5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!”

so suppose this was taking place in Petra...the same place according to these people, where Hagar/ismael had settled, where thr water 'miracle' took place
yet there's no water here and then the rock of horeb story takes place.

it sounds a bit meh.

now the rock of horeb is apparently a place called Jebal al lawz in north/west saudi...so not very far from Petra (afterall modern borders didnt exist back then)

Petra was always a rough guess, it just 'fit' the narrative of these anti-islam quacks and so they rolled on with it. They chose to put Hagar/Ismael and the desert of Paran/KADESH in Petra...and now it all looks too stupid.


So basically there is a Kadesh in the desert of Paran where they were for 38 years.
Then there's a Kadesh in the desert of Zin when they were on their way to Canaan
“Now we are here at Kadesh, a town on the edge of your territory.
this is the one in the desert of zin ie the one that's at jabal al lawz and is near edomite territory in jordan.
fits perfectly.


long read but are you with me so far? these christians picked a weak position to begin with, barely understanding the outline of what is written in Numbers 13 and 20.

So basically
Kadesh-barnea is in the Wilderness of Paran, and Kadesh is in the Wilderness of Zin
https://thetorah.com/solving-the-problem-of-kadesh-in-the-wilderness-of-paran/

This single verse has caused scholars for over a hundred years to assume, incorrectly, that all the references in the Torah to Kadesh are simply shorthand for Kadesh-barnea,[11] and to ignore the ancient identification of Kadesh in the Zin Wilderness with Petra as well as the simple meaning of many biblical narratives. This has resulted in hundreds of incorrect maps of the biblical world, and much confusion as scholars have attempted to reconstruct itineraries and understand narratives![

the amusing thing is these guys are even wrong on the location of Kadesh Barnea ie the sinai Peninsula. Since it is in the desert of paran.
The jews can accept here they've made errors before resulting in incorrect maps of the biblical world.

Well, how about Kadesh Barnea was MECCA, the desert of Paran and the israelites lived there for 38 yrs.
im not alone saying this

http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/firstmentionofkadesh.htm
The First mention of Kadesh in the Bible is Genesis 16:14. We have identified Kadesh Barnea as Mecca and this reference seems to confirm that.

Genesis 16:14 "She called the well Be'er Lachai Roi It is between Kadesh and Bered."

Read the entire scripture referred to -- click here.

Ibn Ezra the great Jewish sage identifies this well with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), "where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zemzem near Mecca. "


ibn Ezra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_ibn_Ezra

ok so this is one guys opinion, granted, but other jews have also accepted this as probably true. It isnt exactly a huge topic to them anyway, but it's just an interesting observation.
connecting Mecca to jerusalem in this way also fits the general themes
ie works and faith...relates to what Paul said about Hagar and Sarah.
the israelites literally living in Mecca for 38 yrs before they could get jerusalem, it also connects with what i said about the Ismaelite/Isaac narrative along with the position of Abraham.

these places are connected.
this even extends to Psalm 84 which is effectively about the israelite people, ie they wish to get to zion....the 'valley of baka' being one of the names of Mecca in the Quran 'the city of Bakkah'.
although this particular position is not required, it is still an interesting observation, it adds depth to the story and once again links them.



Even if none of this is true, it is still better than this wild claim that the real ismaelites were in petra...but im still inclined to believe the above is true since it fills a lot of holes and only adds layers to the whole story.
eg...i regard the relationship between Jesus and prophet Mohammad as an extention of the Macrocosm and Microcosm theme ie the Logos and Holy Spirit...akin to the tree and the fruit. It goes without saying one follows the other.
Without Jesus coming as a 'light for gentiles' and the finality of jewish prophecy...the next person had to be a non-jew and it being an arab to bring a conclusion to the promise to Hagar/Ismael, just completes the story. This prophet bringing the law in the mould of Moses, is a natural progression ie like the Patriarchs living in 'faith' until the law of Moses. Not a backwards step but progression in light of how it ultimately leads to Jesus 'fulfilling the law'. Now that was only true for the jews at that time, so it's obvious to me it didnt do that theme enough justice upto that point. So having shariah from prophet Mohammad SAW as a global law and not just for one race, bringing many diff people under the law...it only leads to the second coming of Jesus AS.
That is precisely why in the hadith prophecy the prophet SAW said 'Jesus will judge you from the law of the Quran and not the law of the Gospel'
A lot of muslims think similar to the jews who used to literally believe the messiah would rule with the law of Moses. Yet it is written 'the law will be on their hearts' ie this is a transformation where they achieve a spiritual state of becoming natural to the law. So for example prophet Mohammad SAW chose milk over wine, when wine was not yet declared unlawful. This was effectively having the 'law written in his heart'.
this macrocosm, microcosm theme IS also taoist philosophy. The tao te ching teaches precisely that being rooted in the Tao means the law is written in your heart (the tao te ching pretty much mirrors the messianic themes...so replace the Tao with the Logos, same idea).

If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.


the tao represents non-being ie the eternal state akin to how Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I AM"
Being represents origin.
these 2 represent 0 and 1.
Just like how Vishnu is the ocean and brahma was born out of that ocean.
Then Jesus coming after Mohammad ie 'returning' goes full circle, ie it's like Shiva...the 'return' from the microcosm to macrocosm.

Along with those themes you have the yin/yang themes, passive and active, where Mecca connects with Madina...and these 2 are microcosms of the story of Jesus first as the suffering servant and then as the Davidic messiah.
However in this context it's connecting the israelites with those themes..as i said like Psalm 84, they're going from Mecca to Jerusalem and it represents a similar type of movement like the Hijrah (although the story began with the exodus from egypt). The israelites had to effectively settle and learn to obey God in Kadesh Barnea (mecca) until they were ready to move onto the next stage.
Like how muslims lived in mecca for 10 years in a passive state until they were allowed to migrate, then made war.
It's also similar how there were israelites lacking faith int he desert of zin and were punished. When the hijrah happened there were muslims who lost faith when they suffered from thirst/hunger and similarly when they fought the first wars against the quraysh there were some who ran off.

it's interesting some of the theories around Mecca as Kadesh Barnea...diff theories..and they are not outright rejected by jews, but are considered as a strong possibility.
one link i posted also said there were 45% of jews in arabia in the middle ages...and that obv does connect with what i said already about Revelation 12.

i really doubt the OP and others have grasped half of what im saying so far. it goes over their head.
 
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But don't you find it if not funny maybe concerning that they were circumambulating the Kaaba in worship of three goddesses... and continued to do so in worship of Allah ?

Am i the only one who finds that strange ?
what people used to do before they received the truth doesnt mean everything was false.
even the jews fell into idolatory/polythiesm various times, doesnt mean their original religion was false.

is bowing down to God an evil concept? people bowed down to false dieties, that means we are copying pagans?
you are not very bright are you barry?
 

TokiEl

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what people used to do before they received the truth doesnt mean everything was false.
even the jews fell into idolatory/polythiesm various times, doesnt mean their original religion was false.

is bowing down to God an evil concept? people bowed down to false dieties, that means we are copying pagans?
you are not very bright are you barry?
L0L you are a doll dawg.

Islam is just another mask and a change of strategy of the false idol(s) you serve.

Sure Jews went a whoring after idols... and that's why God went medieval on them.
 
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L0L you are a doll dawg.

Islam is just another mask and a change of strategy of the false idol(s) you serve.

Sure Jews went a whoring after idols... and that's why God went medieval on them.
pagan 'practices' is a shit argument
bowing was also a pagan practice

therefore derp
jezuz wuz a hindu.
 

TokiEl

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I am not going to "like" your post because I don't want it to seem as though I want that to happen to you.
All good... i just hope i don't get tortured first. L0L


Although we sometimes have to butt heads, especially on matters geopolitical, if and when the time ever comes, I hope we get tossed into the same FEMA camp because I usually enjoy your company.
Likewise but i'm not going to an unfun camp
 

DesertRose

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"And recite to them the story of Ibraaheem(Prophet Abraham peace be upon Him) , when he said to his father and his people: What do you worship? They said: We worship idols, and to them we are ever devoted. He said, Do they hear you, when you call (on them)? Or do they benefit you or do they harm (you)? They said, Nay, but we found our fathers doing so. He said, Do you observe that which you have been worshipping, - you and your ancient fathers? Verily! They are enemies to me, save the Lord of the Aalameen (makind, jinn and everything that exists), Who has created me, and it is He Who guides me." [Al-Shuaraa 26:69-78]

Concerning Ibraaheems destruction of his peoples idols, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"Then he turned to their gods and said, Will you not eat (of the offering before you)? What is the matter with you that you speak not? Then he turned upon them, striking (them) with (his) right hand. Then they (the worshippers of idols) came towards him, hastening. He said, Worship you that which you (yourselves) carve? While Allaah has created you and what you make?" [al-Saaffaat 37:91-96]

"And (remember) when We showed Ibraaheem the site of the (Sacred) House, (saying): Associate not anything (in worship) with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up for prayer, and those who bow (submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allaah), and make prostration (in prayer, etc.)
And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)."
[al-Hajj 22:26-27]

"And (remember) when Ibraaheem (Prophet Abraham peace be upon Him) said: My Lord, make this city (Makkah) a place of security and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allaah and the Last Day. He (Allaah) answered, As for him who disbelieves, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the torment of the Fire, and worst indeed is that destination!

And (remember) when Ibraaheem and (his son) Ismaaeel were raising the foundations of the House (the Kabah), (saying): Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our manaasik (all the ceremonies of pilgrimage Hajj and Umrah), and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.

Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book and al-Hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood, etc.), and sanctify them. Verily, You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."
[al-Baqarah 2:126-129]

Allaah says, rebuking the mushrikeen (polytheists) (interpretation of the meaning): "Yet they have taken besides Him other gods that created nothing but are themselves created, and possess neither hurt nor benefit for themselves, and possess no power (of causing) death, nor (of giving) life, nor of raising the dead." [al-Furqaan 25:3]

"You worship besides Allaah only idols, and you only invent falsehood. Verily, those whom you worship besides Allaah have no power to give you provision, so seek your provision from Allaah (Alone), and worship Him (Alone), and be grateful to Him. To Him (Alone) you will be brought back." [al-Ankaboot 29:17]

Allaah describes how Ibraaheem (upon whom be peace) rebuked his father and his people for worshipping idols (interpretation of the meaning):
"When he said to his father: O my father! Why do you worship that which hears not, sees not and cannot avail you in anything?" [Maryam 19:42]


"Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among people; they will come to you on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways. That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days Appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House. Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honors the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the sight of his Lord" (22:26-30)

For info on why the Kaabah was built and the purposes:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1930/doubts-of-one-who-is-interested-in-islam
 
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It's idol worship... that's what it is.
so if in John 16 Jesus said the holy spirit has nothing on him...ie that he is superior as the Son of God/Logos......yet you believe the holy spirit is fully co-equal with the Father and the Son in Godhead.

if you can hold that belief despite what is written, you are in no position to talk theology, it means you just pick and choose anything to fit into a church doctrine you have been given.
 
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