L0L wife is feeling millennial.
If God is done with Israel, what happens now?
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Claire Rousseau
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I don’t think being pre-trib is enough to cause the brethren to break fellowship with one another.
It is a minor doctrinal disagreement but not worth division like major doctrines (salvation by grace through faith alone, the Trinity, etc.)
You are still our brother in Christ, Red.
Thunderian
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Is your argument against a pre-trib Rapture based on the idea that each Christian must endure the exact same amount of persecution? What scripture do you use to support this?
I'm not dogmatic about it. But if the last trump is the last trump of the seventh seal... well we're at the very end... as in the last trump of the seventh seal is at the very end. That's my main reservation against pre- rapture. Also how would God know your loyalty if you've not been seriously tested ?
bible_student
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If one is to aim for a full understanding, one might also wish to add other verses, such as:
John
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
Jesus told the disciples about the Father (the ONLY True God - John 17:3) dwelling in him.
He never claimed that he was God (the Father) to anyone.
The English bibles create a difficulty with the words "worship" and "god", since they have multiple uses which the English bibles do not make immediately clear. For instance if one considers:
Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
That does obviously not now mean that "Moses was God". Moses clearly wasn't. Moses was a man. God is not a man.
Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
But it does say, that Moses was made "a god" to Pharaoh.
So, what that means in context is that Pharaoh was now actually required to "worship" Moses (i.e. Pharaoh was being required to submit to - i.e. "bow down" (his will) to that of God and OBEY what Moses was telling him. Because it was not Moses telling him, it was God. (by sending Moses to him, as His messenger.)
Moses therefore became God's Messenger to Pharaoh, by God's Command and thus "a god" to Pharaoh. It means, Pharaoh now had to do what Moses said.
That can be a way of looking at it.
Not to promote these people, but the article below was read and found to have some interesting similar viewpoints. It discusses how English bibles do not fully show what the word "worship" means and how it works in the Hebrew and Greek:
https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christ
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
The prophet Isaiah claimed that He was God and Micah as well. And how would you twist what Jesus said in the verse below ?
John 8 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
That verse is saying that God do not lie like man. And the Son of man does not repent like the sons of man.
Thunderian
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That's kind of an odd way of looking at things. We are tested every day. I am literally being tested right now.
And what about those who don't go through the Tribulation? No salvation for them?
The Tribulation is not about testing Christians who are unfortunate enough to be on the earth at that time. It's a time of judgment for Israel.
This is not a test.
As i said at the breaking of the sixth seal God's wrath begins and at that time 12 000 from each of the tribes of Israel will be sealed by God. Also written before the breaking of the seventh seal there ar seen lots of people of all nations standing before the throne and the Lamb. And they are said to have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb during the great tribulation. In other words or as i read it they have been killed for their faith in Jesus Christ.
True Christians have endured tribulation more or less since the beginning. And it's been ramping up lately all around the world but especially in the ME with islamic Isis and Africa with islamic Boko Haram. Not so long ago Communism in Russia destroyed Christendom there and in China with their AI social credit system Christians have a hard time.
The new world order which will rise from the nuclear ashes of the old world will persecute Christians during the great tribulation and chip the rest to a global AI which will more or less control them. It's a time of judgement for the whole world and i don't think Israel will escape unscathed.
Anyway that's my take on it... so i guess so it is.
Karlysymon
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I believe God already knows everything but the test is meant to show you your strength or weakness, inotherwords how far and how long you will maintain your allegiance. If you describe a situation to someone, the listener will most likely exclaim; i wouldn't be able to handle that! Its only until you experience a trial that you comprehend how far you are willing to go or stand for what you believe in. God knew that Job would survive his trial but Job didn't know. Iam sure he learnt something new about himself after the ordeal.
If you falter in times of trouble, how small is your strength!~Proverbs 24:10
There is a rich history of Christians being brutally murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ. And this history has and will repeat itself also during the great tribulation. It's just a sad fact... that the Devil and his warlocks and witches will not tolerate true followers of Jesus Christ. Can't we all just get along ? L0L No!
Red Sky at Morning
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Just a question, who blows the Last Trumpet?
bible_student
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If Jesus was claiming to be God in John 8:58, as trinitarians are claiming, then what about Jesus' statement that God is his God in John 20:17 and in Rev. 3:12?
(John 8:58 is explained by Christ in John 17).
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Red Sky at Morning
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Every little word He said is dissected... but in the end it is the dissecter him/herself who will be dissected lol.
Claire Rousseau
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Yes, the Bible says ALL believers will suffer persecution:
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”......2 Timothy 3:12 KJB
The Tribulation & Great Tribulation spoken of regarding the endtimes is the persecution of saints (saved believers of Christ) which is orchestrated by the Antichrist & backed by the false prophet (I think this will likely be the Pope, but I could be wrong).
The Antichrist will literally be satan incarnate.
Matthew 24 states that the Antichrist( aka man of sin, the Beast, son of perdition) WILL come to power over the entire world & he will rise up BEFORE the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, claiming to be Jesus and promising world peace & will institute a global government with a one world currency which is his mark—to be inserted IN the right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell.
Receiving the “Mark of the Beast” will seal the damnation of those recipients. God WILL NOT save those who receive the mark, and will reject anyone who receives it. Do not take it, under any circumstance....even if it means you & your family will be killed or starve to death.
It is a one way, non-refundable ticket straight to Hell.
The Antichrist will require worship of his image & will behead those who refuse.
Physical death is much better than eternal damnation to the Lake of Fire.
So what does any of this have to do with a piece of land in the Middle East that was renamed “Israel” less than a century ago?
Can you show Scripture to support your claim?
Claire Rousseau
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Each trumpet is assigned to be blown by a different angel of God.
“And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.”.....Revelation 8:6 KJB
AspiringSoul
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No, i am not merely talking about him 'coming down as a man' to refer to him as the 'servant'. The SON, the Eternal Logos is the servant of God the Father.
Jesus specifically said
John 5
Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
Matthew 24
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows
Furthermore this contradicts the idea that Jesus is fully God in the flesh, since he doesnt know when the last hour is, or cannot do anything except by the Father.
It also, especially contradicts the Trinitarian doctrine that says Jesus/the Son is 'co equal' in Godhead with the Father and holy spirit.
The key to understand all of this, it to realise that God is both Trancendent and Immanent.
He is Immanent in the Son...
the Son is not the Trancendent Father..
The Son is more like the vehicle through which the Transcendent God makes Himself known.
@Thunderian
It's absolutely the crucifixion and resurrection that matters. Without those, what is the testimony of Jesus Christ? He was a good guy? He was a prophet? So what?
John, the scribe of Revelation, also wrote the book of John, which affirms that Jesus is God. John was a witness to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Are you even christian? the most important testimony is that Jesus is the Word of God and the messiah. The crucifixion can only carry weight with the other 2.
John 1
I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
He was a good guy? He was a prophet? So what?
the Quran says Jesus is the Word of Allah and the 'Masih'/messiah...and also a 'sign of the Last Hour'.
Islam is diverse and open to interpretation esp on this matter. The verse 4:157 has at least 3 diff interpretations, but i know the measure of my own interpretation vs those. I believe the crucifixion happened and believe the verse was addressing the sadducee perspective. your ave muslim who has an opinion on this verse doesnt even know what sadducee is. It's largely because of Ahmad Deedat and later Zakir Naik's style of dawah that the other 'non-crucifixion' opinions became popular.
check this
https://abuaminaelias.com/was-jesus-christ-really-crucified-or-someone-else/
he presents yet another view.....
My understanding of the crucifixon goes like this
-we have carnal attachments that binds our soul to the mortal/physical world. When the world dies from our reality, then our soul experiences death too...and it suffers according to the extent of it's attachments to earth. This is death, coming from our sinful/flesh nature.
-Those who kill their carnal attachments cannot experience death./ Their body may appear to die, but they are living, their souls are free.
"i am in you and you are in me" relates to the concept of Gnosis (NOT gnosticism)...ie it means that your heart reflects his heart and hence you 'know' him (gnosis means knowledge)...you become 'one' ie branches in the tree. So in this context, when he died on the cross, you also die with him. he put his carnal attachments to the world, to death...ie total submission to the will of God...no personal/carnal resistance. IF you are in him ie if he is reflected in your heart through the bond of Love...then his metaphysical 'state' will also reflect in you. So you also experience being 'born again' and 'dying to the flesh'
THIS is where the crucifixion/resurrection becomes most relevant.
I do not regard anyone as 'saved' if they merely confess some words with the tongue about Jesus..because saved the christian way means you absolutely MUST be onewith Jesus and dead in the flesh.
are you? hell no you're not..so that means Jesus is not 'fully' in you.
The most important issue here is, in Rev 12 it's the way its worded
"rest of her children"
this has no context if the woman is christianity...but it does if the woman represents Israel and the 'rest of children' are the lost tribes who happen to be muslim.
As things stand, it fits perfectly when you realise the pasthun (like taliban) are from the lost tribes of israel...
like someone once told me, "if you want to know who is on haqq/truth...just look at who the elite are targetting"
it's rather funny too that
1260 days as years is derived from the bible as you know. Ie if muslims are 'right with God' then Jerusalem is 'ours'
but when we are sinful it isnt ours.
So it is natural for me to observe the time/years muslims had jerusalem, it came to 1258 off my calculations.That is no coincidence.
Revelation 11 also tells us the gentiles would trample there for 1260 days.
The place where Jesus was baptized and received the Spirit wasn't in the desert. It was at a well-known ford in the Jordan river, near a suburb of Jerusalem called Bethany, and nowhere near the desert.
That's a diff Bethany. This one was bethany beyond the Jordan and is part of the wilderness.
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1446/
The wilderness here obv isnt the same as the one in the story of Hagar or the exodus. I'm using it as an example of how a wilderness is associated with death yet there are also positive themes connected to the wilderness(es).
Even if we ticked this one off, it doesnt disregard the overall argument ie the wilderness in Rev 12 is a shelter for the woman and her offspring.
When it states
"the serpent went after her OTHER CHILDREN" then at that point you realise it's def a reference to the lost tribes. It is these 'other children' who it says hold the testimony of Jesus and follow the commandments.
I can see for example that islam is being attacked by the colonial west. I can see how the pashtun people who are one part of the lost tribes...are being bombed under this hoax concept 'terrorism' (whilst israel funds al qaeeda/al nusra front, wicked stuff).
You asked me if I think the wilderness in 12 and 17 are the same.
The wilderness in 17 is babylon..
Jeremiah 50
She will be the least of the nations—
a wilderness, a dry land, a desert.
In Zechariah 5, the 'woman' (the same one in Rev 17) is on the basket..and it says
11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”
The woman is also diff to the one in Rev 12
Thw woman in Rev 12 is the true israel, the remnant.
the whore of babylon as the false jewish nation..keeping in mind both israel and judea were described as adulteresses in Jeremiah.
the 'women' represent the shadow archetype, the Anima
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus
Also, im not claiming the woman is islam, but that the wilderness is linked to islam.
the 1260 days of shelter in the wilderness..is about judaism being saved by the arrival of islam.
The dragon attacking the woman was fulfilled by christians/romans/byzantines..it happened that the jews sought refuge in muslim lands..
of course that period is over.
No man Jesus did not come to claim He is God but to be rejected killed and spill His blood for sinners.
That's why He always pointed to the Father and gave Him all the glory.
It's not a woman but a fire offering in Zechariah 5 which will be set on it's base as in missile silo.
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meeeeeeeee
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