If God is done with Israel, what happens now?

Thunderian

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This seems to be the hot topic, and I'm curious what those who think God has rejected Israel in favour of the Church think is going to happen. Will there still be a Rapture? A seven-year Tribulation? How does it all end?
 

phipps

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This seems to be the hot topic, and I'm curious what those who think God has rejected Israel in favour of the Church think is going to happen. Will there still be a Rapture? A seven-year Tribulation? How does it all end?
God does not reject. We are the ones who reject. God created everyone of us with free will and that included the children of Israel. However He gave them thousands of years in which to turn back to Him. Then finally He gave them a time period in which to change and when Jesus came as the Messiah, they rejected Him. Jesus Himself told them because of their disobedience and rejection of Him, the gospel was taken from them and given to another nation. Matthew21:43 "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."
The new testament has made it clear that all the promises of literal Israel were and are passed on to spiritual Israel. God did not say His promises will be fulfilled only in literal and genetic Jews. Its not about genetics. Its all about Christ. We can't be saved without Him. The nation of Israel didn't and still do not want Jesus as their Messiah. How can anything be fulfilled with them? Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." It will be fulfilled in those who believe and have faith in Jesus, Jew or Gentile.

There is no seven year tribulation in the Bible. All the 70 week period already came to an end. The one week that was cut off, was for Messiah not placed 2000 years in the future. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27. After Jesus' baptism, it took three and half years to His crucifixion. That is the middle of seven years and that is what caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The veil of the temple was rent (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. Another three and a half years later would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation with the stoning of Stephen. Israel as a people had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God's people just as Daniel had predicted. Henceforth they could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles.


When Jesus returns it will be no secret. The whole world will know. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "

Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jesus is not going to return in two phases nor is there going to be a second chance for anyone after He returns. Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." This announcement will be made just before Jesus returns and probation closes for the world just like it did for Israel before. When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matthew 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what they did before the coming of Christ.
 
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Karlysymon

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That's the problem with that theology. You have a sequence of events dependent on one thing. Jews are regathered; reclaim land on both sides of the Jordan; have Jerusalem to themselves; the temple; rapture; antichrist signing a treaty; tribulation; etc.
If the Regathering is proven false, everything else becomes false. Its a deception well woven by the arch deceiver to swell his ranks for the endgame.
Unfortunately, that's all foreign policy now.
 
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This seems to be the hot topic, and I'm curious what those who think God has rejected Israel in favour of the Church think is going to happen. Will there still be a Rapture? A seven-year Tribulation? How does it all end?
Hi Thunderian, There is an ethnic division of the Scriptures. (1 Cor. 10:32), "Give no offense neither to the Jew, nor to the Gentile, nor to the Church of God. God has given certain and specific promises to the Jew, not given to any other people. From the call of Abraham (Gen. 11:10 To Malachi 4:6) is about the Jew (other nations mentioned only as they have touched Israel). Another group of people have also been given certain and specific promises apart from the promises of Israel is The Church of God. All of Israel's promises were earthward and by law. Their rewards were according to their obedience to God (by their own choice) (study Exodus chapters 19 and 20). "after being saved by grace from the hands of Egypt", instead of continuing in God's grace, they said that they would do what ever God asked them to do. (thus, "The Law") Ex. 19:3-8.
The Synoptic Gospels are the fulfillment of the promise to Israel to have their king (The Son of David according to the flesh and Son of God according to the Spirit) Rom. 1:1-4. And their rejection of Him as He came preaching the Kingdom of the Heavens, "as at hand".(Matthew chapter 4, and His rejection, Chapter 12). The Church was only mentioned as future. God (after He has called out His Body (Church) of Jew and Gentile as one new man,(Eph. 2:14-17) will again return to Israel to build up the Kingdom of David (during the millennium) (Acts 15:13-18). Combining the promises of Israel as the Church has done more damage to the Gospel than any other heresy. There is much to understand and study about the difference between the Church and Israel, but the Church are Son's of God and brothers of Christ that will rule with Christ over Israel and all the nations (Romans Chapter 8). And yes, there is a Rapture and a Seven year Tribulation. It ends just like Revelation's says it will. I will answer any question you ask, with Scripture.
 

TokiEl

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The return of the Jews to their land is the single most important endtime marker.

The parable of the budding fig tree is about their return and regeneration as a nation state at a time when Jesus advent is at the door meaning extremly close. The timeline in Daniel 9 was paused for about 2000 years before the Jews restored control over Jerusalem again. So that clock is ticking as i type...

Besides the great tribulation is just 3.5 years... the latter half of Daniel's 70th week.

And the elect or chosen will be sealed at the breaking of the sixth seal when the great tribulation begins.

There will be no eradication of the earth but there will be nuclear fire.

When God can glorify human beings He can glorify the earth as well and make it fresh again.

Jesu birthday is on the Feast of Tabernacles and every year in that time we will go to Jerusalem and celebrate our eternal God who will dwell with men. And no there will of course be no more animal sacrifices but burning of incense.
 

Hubert

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Seriously, how many times is this prophesy going to have to fall through before the apocalyptic's stop saying "any day now"?
 

elsbet

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God does not reject. We are the ones who reject. God created everyone of us with free will and that included the children of Israel. However He gave them thousands of years in which to turn back to Him. Then finally He gave them a time period in which to change and when Jesus came as the Messiah, they rejected Him. Jesus Himself told them because of their disobedience and rejection of Him, the gospel was taken from them and given to another nation. Matthew21:43 "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."
The new testament has made it clear that all the promises of literal Israel were and are passed on to spiritual Israel. God did not say His promises will be fulfilled only in literal and genetic Jews. Its not about genetics. Its all about Christ. We can't be saved without Him. The nation of Israel didn't and still do not want Jesus as their Messiah. How can anything be fulfilled with them? Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." It will be fulfilled in those who believe and have faith in Jesus, Jew or Gentile.

There is no seven year tribulation in the Bible. All the 70 week period already came to an end. The one week that was cut off, was for Messiah not placed 2000 years in the future. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27. After Jesus' baptism, it took three and half years to His crucifixion. That is the middle of seven years and that is what caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The veil of the temple was rent (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. Another three and a half years later would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation with the stoning of Stephen. Israel as a people had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God's people just as Daniel had predicted. Henceforth they could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles.


When Jesus returns it will be no secret. The whole world will know. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."

Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "

Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jesus is not going to return in two phases nor is there going to be a second chance for anyone after He returns. Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." This announcement will be made just before Jesus returns and probation closes for the world just like it did for Israel before. When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matthew 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what they did before the coming of Christ.
O, PHIPPS... I think you are my favorite newb-- so bear with me, here-- let's boil it down, to what is really being said:

God didn't get His man.​

Or in this case, His tribe. I just don't believe that. You know this verse from Isaiah 55...

For just as rain and snow fall from heaven
and do not return without watering the earth...
... so My word that proceeds from My mouth
will not return to Me empty
,
but it will accomplish what I please,
and it will prosper where I send it
.

:)

This has probably been posted, but it bears repeating-- it clearly says, in Romans...

For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles may come in.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written:

“The One Delivering will come out of Zion,

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

And this is the covenant from Me to them,

when I shall take away their sins.”

For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy by the disobedience of these, so these also now have been disobedient for your mercy, so that they also now may have mercy shown them. For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.


-
 

Thunderian

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And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27.
Do you mean to say that it's Jesus Christ who is the "he" in this verse?
 

Thunderian

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That's the problem with that theology. You have a sequence of events dependent on one thing. Jews are regathered; reclaim land on both sides of the Jordan; have Jerusalem to themselves; the temple; rapture; antichrist signing a treaty; tribulation; etc.
If the Regathering is proven false, everything else becomes false. Its a deception well woven by the arch deceiver to swell his ranks for the endgame.
Unfortunately, that's all foreign policy now.
Yes, but what do you think is going to happen? Since you don't believe in end times prophecy, I mean. Is Jesus just going to show up one day? I'm asking in good faith, because I want to understand how you understand the Bible.
 

phipps

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Do you mean to say that it's Jesus Christ who is the "he" in this verse?
This the KJV and sometimes the don't use a capital but yes it is Jesus Christ. Who else would bring an end to sacrifices but the actual sacrifice for our sins? Can you think of anyone else? The sacrificial lamb of the Jewish system represented Jesus, the innocent Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the guilty world.
 
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TokiEl

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This the KJV and sometimes the don't use a capital for Jesus but yes it is Jesus Christ. The prophecy is about Jesus. Who else would bring an end to sacrifices but the actual sacrifice for our sins? Can you think of anyone else?
He in verse 27 is the prince that shall come in verse 26.

He is the prince of the people who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem.

He is the prince of Rome.

He is the pope.


And on September 25 2015 he confirmed the covenant with many in the United Nations about the global governance goal known as the Millennium Development Goals. And since Sept 25 2015 those goals are now known as the Sustainable Development Goals.

That means Daniel's 70th week began on September 2015 which can be proven correct as that date is exactly seven weeks from when the Jews restored control over Jerusalem again on June 7 1967.

We are almost in the middle of the last week already where some sort of destruction is foretold and worship of God who is Christ will be forbidden.

Prepare to be persecuted for your faith in Jesus Christ. And don't forget martyrdom is glorious.
 

phipps

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O, PHIPPS... I think you are my favorite newb-- so bear with me, here-- let's boil it down, to what is really being said:

God didn't get His man.​

Or in this case, His tribe. I just don't believe that. You know this verse from Isaiah 55...

For just as rain and snow fall from heaven
and do not return without watering the earth...
... so My word that proceeds from My mouth
will not return to Me empty
,
but it will accomplish what I please,
and it will prosper where I send it
.

:)

This has probably been posted, but it bears repeating-- it clearly says, in Romans...

For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles may come in.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written:

“The One Delivering will come out of Zion,

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

And this is the covenant from Me to them,

when I shall take away their sins.”

For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy by the disobedience of these, so these also now have been disobedient for your mercy, so that they also now may have mercy shown them. For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.

-

I know the verse in Isaiah 55 and it is true. God's word always accomplishes and prospers. Again, the Bible never says that God's promises will be fulfilled in the literal nation of Israel does it? That is what you guys are focussed on. Jesus removed the gospel from Israel and gave it to to others because they rejected Him. They still reject Him to this day. Jews can be saved individually like the Gentiles if they believe and have faith of Jesus.

Do you know that even in end time prophecy the Jews are not God's chosen people? In end time prophecy in the book of Daniel, it starts off with with the kingdoms that will affect Israel because they were God's chosen people then. So the first kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-persia, Greece and Rome all rule over the Jews. Then in chapter 7 of Daniel we read about the little horn that persecutes God's people and speaks blasphemous things against God. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Daniel 7:25. We all know that the little horn is the the papacy. We know it persecuted Christians during the dark ages and reformation and thought to change times and God's law which sadly most of Christendom still follow. Then when we go to the book of Revelation, in chapter 13 we read about the first beast that does the same thing as the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 but we are given more information about it. We also have the second beast that forces the whole word to worship the first beast whose wound was healed. Why am I telling you this? Even in prophecy we move from the Jews to the whole world. The gospel clearly goes around the world and end time prophecy is about those who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus (Revelation 14:12). Spiritual Israel.

So God's promises will be fulfilled in those who believe and have faith in Jesus. The Bible never says that will be through the nation of Israel does it? Spiritual Israel is Israel too according to God and it will be saved. Are you going to ignore everything else Paul said about Israel? Does he contradict himself?

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:8).
The children of the flesh are only natural descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise are counted as the true seed. Today, any person—Jew or Gentile—can become part of this spiritual nation of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29).
Did you catch that? The implications are staggering! Someone who is “called a Jew” because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, “is not a Jew”—at least, not in God’s eyes. His “circumcision is made uncircumcision.” It is revoked. Thus to God, he is a Gentile. And a believing Gentile, who through faith keeps “the righteousness of the law,” his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Thus to God, he is a Jew.

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7).

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).

“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh” (Philippians 3:3). Thus, according to Paul, a real Jew in the sight of God is anybody—Jew or Gentile—who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!

Its pretty clear Paul is talking about spiritual Israel.


What about what Jesus said about Israel?

Remember also when Jesus marveled at the faith of a Gentile soldier. He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness” (Matthew 8:10-12).

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:43-44).

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" Matthew 23:37-39.

"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." Luke 19:41-44.
Jesus clearly related the destruction of Jerusalem to Israel’s final refusal to accept Him as their King and Saviour.

“They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 44).


Also no where in the Bible does it say literal Israel are to get a second chance. They were given so many chances so there is no going back. Just like when the world ends there is not going to be another chance for people to repent. That will be it because God will have given us so many chances too. What happened to Israel on a small scale is what is going to happen to the world on a larger scale.
 
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TokiEl

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Then in chapter 7 of Daniel we read about the little horn that persecutes God's people and speaks blasphemous things against God. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Daniel 7:25. We all know that the little horn is the the papacy.
No that little horn is not the papacy.

That little horn will uproot three of the ten endtime kings so it is a military power.

And that little horn has a short time 3.5 years... the latter half of Daniel's 70th week.

We are not there yet.




What about what Jesus said about Israel?
Matthew 24 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."
 

TokiEl

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Then when we go to the book of Revelation, in chapter 13 we read about the first beast that does the same thing as the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 but we are given more information about it. We also have the second beast that forces the whole word to worship the first beast whose wound was healed.
The second beast looks like a lamb and spoke like a dragon and that sounds like the papacy. But it has 2 horns and is also called the false prophet which links it to Islam. In other words the second beast is Chrislam.
 

Karlysymon

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Yes, but what do you think is going to happen? Since you don't believe in end times prophecy, I mean. Is Jesus just going to show up one day? I'm asking in good faith, because I want to understand how you understand the Bible.
Seriously? I don't believe in endtime prophecy? Maybe you should go through the Prophetic Expections thread. And to your question, my position is the same as @phipps'...^ above.
 

elsbet

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I know the verse in Isaiah 55 and it is true. God's word always accomplishes and prospers. Again, the Bible never says that God's promises will be fulfilled in the literal nation of Israel does it?
You're changing the subject, phipps.

Why?
 

Thunderian

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This the KJV and sometimes the don't use a capital but yes it is Jesus Christ. Who else would bring an end to sacrifices but the actual sacrifice for our sins? Can you think of anyone else? The sacrificial lamb of the Jewish system represented Jesus, the innocent Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the guilty world.
If Jesus Christ is the prince that shall come, can you explain what's happening in Matthew 24?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

Thunderian

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Seriously? I don't believe in endtime prophecy? Maybe you should go through the Prophetic Expections thread. And to your question, my position is the same as @phipps'...^ above.
I meant pre-tribbing, Jew-loving, end timesing. You don't believe in that, do you?
 
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