Eye on Israel...(...and the Spiritual Battle behind the war...)

[Haich]

It would be fruitless Todd because you’ll only cite what happened on Oct 7th. There have been a lot of testimonies since then that have shown that there’s more to the events than meets the eye. IDF were complicit on what happened to their own civilians that day.

 

[Haich]

The holy spirit is telling you to come in VC and seek knowledge? About your scripture?

You don’t see a problem with that statement?

 

[Todd]

,

Your subjective understanding and rationalisation of the events doesn’t excuse what can be observed objectively.

What I can observe objectively? I thought the whole point of the VC website is that it is very difficult to observe anything objectively without being a first hand witness, because of media bias and narratives? I don't rely on the media (mainstream, social or alternative....they all have their own biases) to arrive at my conclusions. I do have a trip booked to Israel next year, so I can observe somethings first hand for myself.

You have a tiny strip of densely populated land thats been pummelled relentlessly, to the point where it’s displaced the entire population who are now taking refuge in hospitals, schools and back streets. On a human level, you’d be crazy not to be angered or moved by the plight of those people.

Of course I am angered and moved by the plight of those people. You claim I have not objectively observed Israel's role in the plight of those poeple, but you are not objectively observing the role of the Arab world in the plight of those people either. Despite the narrative you so strongly believe in, Israel has made more than reasonable attempts since it's re-creation in 1947 to negotiate peace with it's Arab neighbors. All while accepting and inviting Arabs and Palestinians to be part of it's society, culture and government. The walls and security measures have only become necessary because of the majority of the Arab nations to refuse to even accept the existence of Israel more or less even attempt to negotiate peace.

Here’s the issue though, Todd. By saying you stand with Israel, you have actually said in no uncertain terms that you support the culling of Palestinians as that’s what is needed according to you, to fulfil prophecy and bring about Jesus.

Yeah, you are totally misrepresenting what I was saying. I did not say it was necessary to cull Palestinians to bring about the return of Jesus. The promise of God that Israel would be re-created and exist and once again in the land of Israel combined with the Arab worlds complete and utter acceptance of that miracle is what unfortunately has lead to atrocities that have come upon the Palestinians. It is completely un-needed if the Arab world was willing to accept and negotiate peace with Israel.

Todd, that’s something you have to live with not me.

And you have to live with speaking against what the prophets of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have declared. What's your point in bringing that up?

I can confidently say that I’m against all types of injustice and violence

Can you? I have not read all the threads or posts on VC to any degree. I have not personally observed where you have condemned Hamas or any other Arab terrorist organizations. Please direct me to some of you posts if they exist.

but what the Israelis have been doing brazenly for the past month, restricting supplies, breaking international law multiple times, slaughtering children, babies and innocent women, this is something I cannot ignore.
You can’t claim to be a turn the other cheek Christian but then support the greater good that’ll supposedly come out of this.

Yes in fact I can, because that is exactly what the bible teaches. The bible even teaches that my salvation as a gentile was only possible because of the hardening of the heart of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have suffered for 2000 years so I as a gentile could experience salvation. That is partly why I stand with Israel even though they have not yet accepted the Messiah.

If every human being on the earth turned the other cheek there would never be any violence or war anywhere in the Earth throughout anytime of human history. But of course we know that is not happening. I can turn the other cheek personally, but still understand what God is doing to bring about his will in an imperfect and fallen world. Can you?

 

[Todd]

The holy spirit is telling you to come in VC and seek knowledge? About your scripture?

You don’t see a problem with that statement?

Again, misrepresenting what I said completely. I don't come to VS to seek knowledge about my scripture.

I come to VC to test if I can present and defend what I think I believe. Thinking and praying or discussing what I believe with myself or people who think the same way I do proves nothing. If I can converse and debate with others who have completely different paradigms, beliefs and perspectives than me and still feel confident in what I believe, it doesn't matter whether they agree with me or if I can win them over to "my side". I can't test or put through the fire my beliefs by going to sites that have the same beliefs and paradigms I have. I don't come here seeking knowledge. Not that I haven't found it unexpectedly form different members on the rare occasion. But no it is not the general reason I come here. LOL!

 

[Orwell's mentor]

It would be fruitless Todd because you’ll only cite what happened on Oct 7th. There have been a lot of testimonies since then that have shown that there’s more to the events than meets the eye. IDF were complicit on what happened to their own civilians that day.

I suppose it's inevitable when you have 98% of American Protestant churches preaching Zionism.

 

[Haich]

Again, misrepresenting what I said completely. I don't come to VS to seek knowledge about my scripture.

I come to VC to test if I can present and defend what I think I believe. Thinking and praying or discussing what I believe with myself or people who think the same way I do proves nothing. If I can converse and debate with others who have completely different paradigms, beliefs and perspectives than me and still feel confident in what I believe, it doesn't matter whether they agree with me or if I can win them over to "my side". I can't test or put through the fire my beliefs by going to sites that have the same beliefs and paradigms I have. I don't come here seeking knowledge. Not that I haven't found it unexpectedly form different members on the rare occasion. But no it is not the general reason I come here. LOL!

I didn’t intentionally represent you, that’s what I understood from what you’d said. Fair enough.

 

[Haich]

What I can observe objectively? I thought the whole point of the VC website is that it is very difficult to observe anything objectively without being a first hand witness, because of media bias and narratives? I don't rely on the media (mainstream, social or alternative....they all have their own biases) to arrive at my conclusions. I do have a trip booked to Israel next year, so I can observe somethings first hand for myself.

I don’t think anyone on here watches mainstream news. I don’t. I’m referring to the footage and news we’ve been getting from journalists but also actual Gazans on the ground. There’s a catalogue of footage and news available showing the atrocities. The official narrative is usually in favour of Israel and their ‘right to defend themselves’ so conspiracy theorists will probably conclude otherwise.

I mean even if on your trip you engage with locals, they’ll happy support Israel like you and condemn the Palestinians in every way. Not sure what you’d be looking to observe when you’re already on that side of the fence.

 

[Haich]

Of course I am angered and moved by the plight of those people. You claim I have not objectively observed Israel's role in the plight of those poeple, but you are not objectively observing the role of the Arab world in the plight of those people either. Despite the narrative you so strongly believe in, Israel has made more than reasonable attempts since it's re-creation in 1947 to negotiate peace with it's Arab neighbors. All while accepting and inviting Arabs and Palestinians to be part of it's society, culture and government. The walls and security measures have only become necessary because of the majority of the Arab nations to refuse to even accept the existence of Israel more or less even attempt to negotiate peace.

I mean you’re just not being sincere here. Stucky posted a wealth of evidence a few pages back on this thread showing evidence that strongly shows Israel intentionally sabotaging every peace agreement or negotiation.

Nope I’m not. I’ve already condemned any innocent civilians lost on the 7th Oct. What other atrocities have Palestinians or your term, ‘Arabs’ committed against the Israelis?

 

[Haich]

And you have to live with speaking against what the prophets of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have declared. What's your point in bringing that up?

What is it with you Christians? Don’t you follow the same religion? On the Bible V Quran thread a Christian claimed that you guys disregard everyone prior to Jesus. Now you’re making this claim about the prophets of God?

 

[Orwell's mentor]

Yes, I have always stated that VC forums are mostly were I come to debate things and test out what I believe the Holy Spirit might be showing me I need to change. Some things I have debated I still hold to and some ran there course and I have abandoned.

Why do you keep trying to show me things that I supposedly support by standing with Israel. I could choose to show many similar things and accuse of things you stand with because you stand with the Palestinians, but it would be fruitless. You are totally ignoring what I am saying about Standing with Israel does not mean condoning everything they do. Most of those I know who stand with Israel are not big fans of Netanyahu, just like most of the people in America who still stand with America are not fans of Joe Biden.

I show it because you use the same taglines/rhetoric that I've read and heard over the past decade (i.e. human shields). As well and FTR, Palestinians are the OCCUPIED, and they're being systematically murdered by the OCCUPIERS. As Haich indicated, they've basically broken every international law and to date, they've murdered over 11,000 innocent civilians. It's the reason why Craig Mokhiber resigned. Here's the video:

Craig Mokhiber on UN's failures in Palestine and why he quit

To be fair, there are some Israelis aren't supportive of what Israel is doing either and also want a cease fire. I couldn't stand with a country like that even if my life depended on it.

 

[Todd]

I didn’t intentionally represent you, that’s what I understood from what you’d said. Fair enough.

No problem....understood.

 

[Todd]

I mean you’re just not being sincere here. Stucky posted a wealth of evidence a few pages back on this thread showing evidence that strongly shows Israel intentionally sabotaging every peace agreement or negotiation.

Again we all have to decide which media reports and "evidence" we are going to believe. You can find all the evidence to the contrary also. Again it comes down to which narrative you are going to believe.

Nope I’m not. I’ve already condemned any innocent civilians lost on the 7th Oct. What other atrocities have Palestinians or your term, ‘Arabs’ committed against the Israelis?

I'm not here to tit for tat on trying to prove who has committed more or less atrocities. I'm coming form the pre-supposition that atrocities have been committed on both sides. If you can't agree to that, then no point continuing.

 

[Todd]

What is it with you Christians? Don’t you follow the same religion? On the Bible V Quran thread a Christian claimed that you guys disregard everyone prior to Jesus. Now you’re making this claim about the prophets of God?

That's odd. I don't know any Christian's personally that disregard any of the prophets of the Old Testament. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah because he fulfilled the OT prophecies about the Messiah. That is a very strange comment for someone who says they are a Christian to make. But if that belief is more prevalent in the Christian world than I realize, it's no wonder much of the "Church" is not standing with Israel. I was under the pre-supposition that Replacement Theology is the main reason most of the Church does not stand with Israel. I may have to look into that.

I'll admit many Christians, claim they believe the OT, but have no desire, knowledge or idea how to study or apply it, so they often focus on just the NT. Part of the reason I appreciate the Church I go to is that we have relationship with Jewish people and Rabbi's and although we peaceably do not agree about Jesus being the Messiah, we humbly learn much from them about the OT.

 

[Haich]

Again we all have to decide which media reports and "evidence" we are going to believe. You can find all the evidence to the contrary also. Again it comes down to which narrative you are going to believe.


I'm not here to tit for tat on trying to prove who has committed more or less atrocities. I'm coming form the pre-supposition that atrocities have been committed on both sides. If you can't agree to that, then no point continuing.

Well you haven’t really revealed what sources you use. I’ve seen you post from Israeli media but nothing else.

I think this is the issue either you aren’t understanding or are purposefully overlooking. The atrocities aren’t comparable as the death toll has exceeded 11,000 on the Palestinian side. This isn’t something you can just dismiss as ‘atrocities on both sides’.

You’ve made your position clear anyway and we’ll just agree to disagree.

 

[Haich]

That's odd. I don't know any Christian's personally that disregard any of the prophets of the Old Testament. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah because he fulfilled the OT prophecies about the Messiah. That is a very strange comment for someone who says they are a Christian to make. But if that belief is more prevalent in the Christian world than I realize, it's no wonder much of the "Church" is not standing with Israel. I was under the pre-supposition that Replacement Theology is the main reason most of the Church does not stand with Israel. I may have to look into that.

I'll admit many Christians, claim they believe the OT, but have no desire, knowledge or idea how to study or apply it, so they often focus on just the NT. Part of the reason I appreciate the Church I go to is that we have relationship with Jewish people and Rabbi's and although we peaceably do not agree about Jesus being the Messiah, we humbly learn much from them about the OT.

The discussion that arose was regarding the sins and evil some of the prophets committed according to your scripture. I asked why such flawed men with incredibly sinful tendencies were tasked with the responsibility of spreading God’s message to the people. The answer that was given was, they don’t regard any of the prophets before Jesus as Jesus is their lord and saviour.

I have a friend who is Christian and she is of that same opinion. She also doesn’t believe the current state of Israel and the Israelis there are the chosen people. It seems there’s a lot of factions within Christianity that believe different things. She argues, as a Christian, that the true chosen Jews are scattered some in Palestine and some in Ethiopia.

 

[JesusSoldier]

Dislcaimer before I address the issue at hand in this post: I'm not trying to defend @JesusSoldier or state I agree with arguments. Though we both stand with Israel, I do not agree with many of his arguments or agree he is representing all those who Stand for Israel properly.

I believe what Jesus taught in Matthew 5:21-45 is very applicable to this situation.

When it comes to biblical teaching there is clearly a difference between what is taught about an individual's response to injustice and how nations or governmental entities should respond. As individuals we are taught "vengance is mine says the lord". This is in line with "turn the other check". As individuals we are not given the freedom to seek vengeance and justice within our own means (i.e. vigilante justice). We are taught to have faith in God that, whether in this lifetime or in ages to come, we will see his justice served in every situation we encounter.

When Jesus taught about turning the other cheek he was speaking to individuals not taking the teachings of judgement in the Torah for personal use. The Torah rules about judgement and punishment were provided as the way the governmental process of the nation of Israel was to operate.

In Jesus' time the nation of Israel was under occupation of the Roman empire so the Jews were not operating as an autonomous society under the Torah. Jesus said himself he did not come to change or abolish the law. He did come to shed a whole new light on how to view and interpret the Torah though.

Now when it comes to nations and governments executing the justice of God, that is another story. It is biblically incorrect to murder another human being when it is motivated by hatred in the heart (per Matthew 5:21-45). However God commanded the armies of Israel to possess the land that was promised to them and often that was not a pretty sight and many people were killed in the process.

Without looking at the spiritual battle, it is impossible in the natural to see anything just or holy about war or bloodshed. Only when we look at this temporal realm we are currently living in, as a fallen state not operating under the full authority, justice and dominion of the living God, can we have any chance of remotely making sense of what is happening. In this realm we currently live in, God has chosen, whether we agree with it or not, to use imperfect people to execute his judgement and bring about his will.

Imperfect people mean imperfect processes to arrive at God's complete will. Of course the bloodshed that was necessary to insure the continued existence of Israel as the means of the messiah coming both in the past and in the future is a perfect example of it. If you can't accept that, then we will never be able to agree on much at all. There is day coming when that will change and Jesus will return as the Lion of tribe of Judah and setup the millennial reign. Then there will be perfect execution of God's governmental system that is outlined in the Torah.

Until then I stand with Israel and their charge to execute warfare to secure the promised land of God's covenant. I know I will be in a great minority, because the prophets in the Bible said that would be the case.

Because Hamas chooses to use innocent Palestinian citizens as shields and build bunkers, command centers and storage depots under hospitals and other civic structures, it is a very sad and heartbreaking reality that many more innocent people will die in this war, then is necessary. I do not condone IDF soldiers purposely killing civilians or killing even guilty Hamas terrorists, with hatred and personal vengeance in their hearts. As soldiers in the army of Israel, I would hope they approach their assignments with the notion that they are executing military orders to fulfill the promises of the Covenant of God. I hope and pray that any soldier of any country who fights believing they are fighting a justified war would have a similar attitude and never rejoice in the deaths of any individuals, civilian or enlisted.

I realize that is highly idealistic and am fully aware many of the soldiers in the IDF do not have that attitude or mindset. It does not change the fact that I believe this is a God ordained war on the side of Israel and possibly fulfillment of biblical prophecy (remains to be seen). It does not mean I agree with every decision or method that Israel is choosing. Each soldier individually will have to answer to God, about the attitude and heart they had in following the commands they were given. Each commanding office and politician in Israel will also answer to God in the method and motive they operated within.

Yes I stand with Israel and support their God given covenantal promise to return and posses the land of Israel, even if I do not completely agree with all their tactics. I stand with Israel but I do not rejoice in the suffering and loss of life amongst innocent Palestinian lives.

Yeah I clearly don't support them properly. Sorry. I just do so for personal reasons more than religious ones. I'm glad you explained this out in a better way and I can say I have learned from you today! Thank you.

 

[Todd]

The discussion that arose was regarding the sins and evil some of the prophets committed according to your scripture. I asked why such flawed men with incredibly sinful tendencies were tasked with the responsibility of spreading God’s message to the people. The answer that was given was, they don’t regard any of the prophets before Jesus as Jesus is their lord and saviour.

The answer you were given is very wrong! LOL!!

According to both the old and new testament, all men are sinful and fall short of the glory of God. That is the whole point of the gospel. If it were up to man's own ability to be righteous before God without Jesus, no one would be righteous before God.

This is the gospel, that Jesus the anointed one, the son of God, sent by God, was the only sinless man to walk the earth. He freely gave his own life to atone for the sins so that anyone who trusts and puts his faith in the anointed one can experience the grace and forgiveness of God. If any of the prophets in the Old Testament had been perfect, there would be no need for the Savior. For then it would be possible for us to attain perfection by our own striving. The fact that God used such sinful people to spread his message, gives even the lowest of us the hope and faith to believe that despite our sinful nature we can be used by God.

Our ability to do any good, is purely by the grace of God, not anything we are capable of our own. We are born selfish and self serving. You don't have to teach a child how to be selfish. You do have to teach them how to share. Any measure of goodness that any of us attain is simply the grace of God.

I do not know of any denomination or Sect of Christianity that teaches the total disregard of the Old Testament Prophets.

I have a friend who is Christian and she is of that same opinion. She also doesn’t believe the current state of Israel and the Israelis there are the chosen people. It seems there’s a lot of factions within Christianity that believe different things. She argues, as a Christian, that the true chosen Jews are scattered some in Palestine and some in Ethiopia.

Unfortunately, yes there are many factions that believe different things.

 

[DesertRose]

I am glad more Americans are waking up to the importance of human rights for Palestinians
Needless to say, Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, we also believe the Creator is the one that accepts us by his grace to heaven.
Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a part of His Creation.
We will be judged according to our intentions and deeds.
Diabolical Israeli Official Threatens NUCLEAR ATTACK: Dissident Media Outlets FIGHT Pro War Neocons
Stew Peters

Diabolical Israeli Official Threatens NUCLEAR ATTACK: Dissident Media Outlets FIGHT Pro War Neocons

Ever since Elon Musk took control of Twitter, freedom of speech has been difficult for elites to control. Founders of news organization The Flame USA Nicole Orozco & Anna Kane are here to talk about the war in the MIddle East and the Zionist endgame…

www.bitchute.com

 

[Todd]

Well you haven’t really revealed what sources you use. I’ve seen you post from Israeli media but nothing else.

Would it really matter? If I started posting articles that supported my position, they would already be labeled Pro-Israel sources and immediately be disregarded by you because of it, correct?

I think this is the issue either you aren’t understanding or are purposefully overlooking. The atrocities aren’t comparable as the death toll has exceeded 11,000 on the Palestinian side. This isn’t something you can just dismiss as ‘atrocities on both sides’.

You’ve made your position clear anyway and we’ll just agree to disagree.

So if Hamas had the ability to actually kill more than 11,000 Israelis, you don't think they would have? Israel is not attacking Palestine trying to even the score and make the list of casualties equal. That is a very naive way of looking at causalities in war statistics. if Israel cannot guarantee that their civilians will not be attacked by terrorists they feel justified in doing what they have to eliminate the terrorists. Yes that means innocent lives lost. But the only way lives being lost on either side every ends is for one entity or the other to cease to exist. Since Israel is greatly outnumbered by those who want to see them cease to exist, I can't really argue against them in doing what they feel is justified to guarantee the safety of their citizens. I know you won't agree with that, but I sleep just fine at night.

Yes our positions our clear and no amount of dialogue between the two of us are probably going to change much. If dialogue could change things this whole thing would have ended long ago, would it have not? Sometimes peace only comes through conquest. Because I have a biblical basis for my stance that the existence of Israel is God's will, I can't dismiss the idea of conquest by Israel since the Arab world has no interest in negotiating peace.

 

[Todd]

I suppose it's inevitable when you have 98% of American Protestant churches preaching Zionism.

I seriously doubt it is that much. The rise of Replacement Theology has greatly reduced that number in the past 30 years.