Eternal Security/Once saved always saved.

Axl888

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Does anybody want to be in this camp?

God: Why should I allow you to enter the Gate of Heaven?

You: First, I fully trust that Jesus died for my sins...etc (Gospel). On top of that, I kept your commandments, walk in the spirit, carry the cross daily, and I'm sanctified. I have done so many great things in your name like heal the sicks, feed the poor, cast out demon, and led many people to repentance. I have no doubt you'll let me in instead of that willful sinners over there.

Or this camp

God: Why should I allow you to enter the Gate of Heaven?

Willful Sinner: Lord, I know I'm an evil sinner in your eyes. I deserve hell fire for the things I have done. But I thank you for being gracious and sent your Son to took the punishment on my behalf. I completely trust His works and shameful on my end. Lord, please forgive me and look at Jesus.

Sure, I can be bias as that's exactly what I believe. Feel free to give your scenario how you think it may play out.
Both men are saved because they believe in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only that the first one has a special reward (crowns from judgment in Christ’s Bema seat) but both men will be in heaven.
 

TokiEl

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Salvation is a child-like faith. When you attach all these conditions, it's no longer a child-like faith.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.
Yes but it's important to state that christians cannot behave as they want and still expect to be saved. As the apostle Paul warned...

Galatians 5 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

floss

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Both men are saved because they believe in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only that the first one has a special reward (crowns from judgment in Christ’s Bema seat) but both men will be in heaven.
I was alluding to:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the folks that believe Faith + Works save them. I understand Works will indeed result in reward but it's not the substances to get you save. There is only one Gospel where we are save.

Faith Only Gospel vs Faith&Works Gospel

These are two different Gospel. Based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected the Faith&Work Gospel.
 
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floss

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Yes but it's important to state that christians cannot behave as they want and still expect to be saved. As the apostle Paul warned...

Galatians 5 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I agreed that Christians should strive to be Christ-like, no doubt about that. And sins has great consequences. We should each and every day move further away from sins, have it under control by walking in the spirit. I just don't believe this efforts justify our salvation but rather sanctified us, which is highly recommended. The only thing that justified our salvation is the shed Blood of Christ, he does all the necessary works. We cannot add more to the shed blood.
 
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I was alluding to:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the folks that believe Faith + Works save them. I understand Works will indeed result in reward but it's not the substances to get you save. There is only one Gospel where we are save.

Faith Only Gospel vs Faith&Works Gospel

These are two different Gospel. Based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected the Faith&Work Gospel.
The thing that makes me wonder is testimonies of pastors of being in hell etc. Or professed christians being in hell right.
 

TokiEl

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Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the folks that believe Faith + Works save them. I understand Works will indeed result in reward but it's not the substances to get you save. There is only one Gospel where we are save.

Faith Only Gospel vs Faith&Works Gospel

These are two different Gospel. Based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected the Faith&Work Gospel.
You're saying that Jesus will accept those who believe... but reject those who believe and do good works.

That's what you're saying right.


Did i understand you correctly ?
 

TokiEl

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I agreed that Christians should strive to be Christ-like, no doubt about that. And sins has great consequences. We should each and every day move further away from sins, have it under control by walking in the spirit. I just don't believe this efforts justify our salvation but rather sanctified us, which is highly recommended. The only thing that justified our salvation is the shed Blood of Christ, he does all the necessary works. We cannot add more to the shed blood.
The shed blood of God remove sins.

It's not possible to remove sins without the shed blood of God.

Now good works according to the fruits of the Spirit is expected of us... and God will help with that.
 

floss

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You're saying that Jesus will accept those who believe... but reject those who believe and do good works.

That's what you're saying right.


Did i understand you correctly ?
What I'm saying is Faith and Works need to be completely separated regards to salvation. When you combined them together, you're still partially relying on your own efforts to be justified instead of trusting on the completed works on the cross. It's like telling Jesus what He had done wasn't enough, therefore you must continue to add-on to his finished works. So based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected those who obviously had faith but at the same time believe in their own "wonderful works", even if they done it in His name. They didn't believe the finished work on the cross was sufficients.

I totally believe in repenting of sins, keeping the commandments, doing great works for the Lord, loving and serving Him all my life. All these wonderful things which I'm 100% He took pleasure in. However, none of these efforts are remotely comparable to what Jesus did on the cross. Although these are good works that pleased the Lord and bring you blessing and rewards, God want you to completely trust only Him when it come to salvation. He doesn't want you to trust Him+You.
 
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TokiEl

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What I'm saying is Faith and Works need to be completely separated regards to salvation. When you combined them together, you're still partially relying on your own efforts to be justified instead of trusting on the completed works on the cross. It's like telling Jesus what He had done wasn't enough, therefore you must continue to add-on to his finished works. So based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected those who obviously had faith but at the same time believe in their own "wonderful works", even if he done it in His name. They didn't believe the finished work on the cross was efficient.

I totally believe in repenting of sins, keeping the commandments, doing great works for the Lord, loving and serving Him all my life. All these wonderful things which I'm 100% He took pleasure in. However, none of these efforts are remotely comparable to what Jesus did on the cross. Although these are good works that pleased the Lord and bring you blessing and rewards, God want you to completely trust only Him when it come to salvation. He doesn't want you to trust Him+You.
Jesus warned about false prophets in Matthew 7:15-27... wolves in sheep's clothing who will lead sheep astray.

He adviced us to recognize them by their fruits... as good cannot produce bad and bad cannot produce good.

Also He said that anybody who hears His words but does not do them... does not live by His words is a fool.


Luke 6 46Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I say?
 

floss

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What do u think about that floss?
About testimonies of pastors/christians in hell?

That's a tough one but I believe it goes back to Matthew7:22 which proved there are many professed Christians, even in the pastoral role, are not save because they included themself additionally to the works of Christ. They may walk and talk like Christ but never had a spiritual rebirth. That's why Jesus said, you must be born again, hinting at a child-like faith. When a child is born,that child is completely relied on his/her parent. Just because someone say a prayer or baptised or appeared "Christian" does not mean they have that spiritual rebirth. So, pastors and professed Christians who does not completely relied on Jesus like a baby relied on their parent, then sadly I don't believe they are save. The good news! Once you have been born again, you can't be unborn, thus you're eternally HIS child :)

“But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
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Axl888

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I was alluding to:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the folks that believe Faith + Works save them. I understand Works will indeed result in reward but it's not the substances to get you save. There is only one Gospel where we are save.

Faith Only Gospel vs Faith&Works Gospel

These are two different Gospel. Based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected the Faith&Work Gospel.
In my opinion there are 2 types of true believers, one has the gift of preaching/ministry and the other dont have such gift, but both are saved because they have true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The one mentioned in Matthew 7, are false prophets/preachers (wolves in sheep's clothing), self-righteous fake believers "holy" in the outside but rotten in the inside.
 

TokiEl

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That's a tough one but I believe it goes back to Matthew7:22 which proved there are many professed Christians, even in the pastoral role, are not save because they included themself additionally to the works of Christ.
There are plenty of examples in american megachurches... where people think they do miraculous works in Jesus name... but are operating by the power of devils.


They may walk and talk like Christ but never had a spiritual rebirth.
If you walk and talk like Christ... you are Christlike.

You think being Christlike disqualifies you from the Kingdom of God.


L0L who've you been listening to ?
 
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Maldarker

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I was alluding to:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the folks that believe Faith + Works save them. I understand Works will indeed result in reward but it's not the substances to get you save. There is only one Gospel where we are save.

Faith Only Gospel vs Faith&Works Gospel

These are two different Gospel. Based on Matthew7, Jesus rejected the Faith&Work Gospel.
Yup if you could work for it what would be the point of CHRIST's atoning sacrifice.
 

TokiEl

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Yup if you could work for it what would be the point of CHRIST's atoning sacrifice.
Only our Creator's blood can atone for our sins.

This is not intuitive nor logical knowledge... but so it is according to God's book the Bible.


Leviticus 17 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9 22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.




So anybody opinionating about Jesus sacrifice was not necessary for forgiveness... are actually rejecting what God said in the Script.
 

Maldarker

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Only our Creator's blood can atone for our sins.

This is not intuitive nor logical knowledge... but so it is according to God's book the Bible.


Leviticus 17 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9 22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.




So anybody opinionating about Jesus sacrifice was not necessary for forgiveness... are actually rejecting what God said in the Script.
Yup i know this thank you glad you brought that up. That is the whole beginning of the issue is life = blood = sin = death once people figure that out & the reason for it well you start to see how important CHRIST's work was. Besides who else can reverse GOD's curse except GOD.
 
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A good situation to discuss here I think would be a christian who struggles, with mental illness maybe? and they kill themselves.

Or perhaps someone that cannot bring themselves to do something out of shame, but they are truly sorry?

lots of nuanced situations.
 

floss

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A good situation to discuss here I think would be a christian who struggles, with mental illness maybe? and they kill themselves.

Or perhaps someone that cannot bring themselves to do something out of shame, but they are truly sorry?

lots of nuanced situations.
If they truly repented, I believe God is more than willing to pull them through. There are many case of far gone drugs addicts (partially talking about myself) that sincerely repented, God renewed them.
If you walk and talk like Christ... you are Christlike.

You think being Christlike disqualifies you from the Kingdom of God.


L0L who've you been listening to ?
Judas walk and talk like Christ, was he qualified?
 

recure

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Judas walk and talk like Christ, was he qualified?
That begs the question why Judas is detested, as Matthew 27:3 says that he repented of his sin. Christ would have forgiven even him, but the reason he wasn't forgiven is stated in verse 5; because he "went and hanged himself."
 

floss

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That begs the question why Judas is detested, as Matthew 27:3 says that he repented of his sin. Christ would have forgiven even him, but the reason he wasn't forgiven is stated in verse 5; because he "went and hanged himself."
It said he repented himself as in his position had changed (he didn't feel guilty before). Now, he felt remorseful because an innocent blood was in his hand, even atheist feel this way when they're guilty. It never said he repented to God. Had he came directly to the living Christ and ask for forgiveness, I believe his destiny would've changed. However, we can see in John 6:64 why he didn't ask God for forgiveness, he simply wasn't a believer since the beginning, eventhough he walk and talk like Christ (undetected by the Disciples). That's why when Jesus said "one of you will betray me", it was a jaw dropping moment for the Disciples because they had no idea who that could be, they even suspected themself "Is it I, Lord?". Nobody suspected of Judas, the Treasurer.

“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
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