Aisha's age at the time of her marriage

[floss]

My response is that regardless of comparative societal norms, there is no way for a grown man to have any sort of a healthy marital relationship with a girl aged 6-9, then or now. And when I look at the evidence, coupled with my belief that Muhammed was a prophet of scrupulous morality and action, I continue to reject the notion that he married a girl at 6 and began sexual relations with her at 9.

Honest question:

Will you leave Islam and denounce Muhamad IF it turned out Aisha was married at 6 and consummated at 9?

This is just a question, I'm not going to post the hadeeths. Thanks

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Honest question:

Will you leave Islam and denounce Muhamad IF it turned out Aisha was married at 6 and consummated at 9?

This is just a question, I'm not going to post the hadeeths. Thanks

Thats a bridge I would have to come to before I consider crossing, as does every practitioner of every faith at some point. However, it is worth noting that so long as its done with respect, Islam encourages us to ask these hard questions and search for true answers (which is what Im trying to do)... yet its the born-and-bred Muslims and their supporters who try and shut down the discussion.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

(which is what Im trying to do)...

Lying twat!

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Lying twat!

Showing off your born-and-bred Muslim manners for the world to see... and children to read. But then again, you ARE on here advocating for grown men to "marry" 6 year old girls...

 

[TrollingTroubles]

Showing off your born-and-bred Muslim manners for the world to see... and children to read. But then again, you ARE on here advocating for grown men to "marry" 6 year old girls...

Mate, get a hold of yourself! This just proves you haven’t read anything I’ve posted.

If you had read my posts, you would have read the following, you doorknob!

Is it wrong to feel the way you do? No. Neither you nor I would want our daughters who may be 9 years old to marry anyone at that age, let alone someone in their 50’s.

Now stop being a dick!

And address the following!

Is it wrong to feel the way you do now if you was alive in the 7th century CE and holding the same view as modern day 21st century people? Yes. It is clearly wrong to apply a standard from one point in history and expect it to stick in another time. It isn’t a question of morality. It’s a question of societal acceptance. The two are different and you haven’t quite figured that out yet.

You disingenuous and dishonest twat.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Mate, get a hold of yourself! This just proves you haven’t read anything I’ve posted.

If you had read my posts, you would have read the following, you doorknob!



Now stop being a dick!

And address the following!

You disingenuous and dishonest twat.

Keep up with that vulgar language, its your dawa.

 

[floss]

Thats a bridge I would have to come to before I consider crossing, as does every practitioner of every faith at some point. However, it is worth noting that so long as its done with respect, Islam encourages us to ask these hard questions and search for true answers (which is what Im trying to do)... yet its the born-and-bred Muslims and their supporters who try and shut down the discussion.

Fair enough. Were you always in the 18yo Aisha camp since the beginning of your faith? Or is that something you reconciled later in the faith after carefully done your research? Are you considered a "heretic" to the Muslim faith?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Fair enough. Were you always in the 18yo Aisha camp since the beginning of your faith? Or is that something you reconciled later in the faith after carefully done your research? Are you considered a "heretic" to the Muslim faith?

It never sat right with me but when I thought about the practice of young girls (teens) being married even a couple of decades ago here and the harsh landscape there at the time, I was willing to not fuss with it and investigate later. Also it was easier to understand because there was a solid bunch of brothers who were there when I took shahadda and they were pretty clear that it wasnt something that was necessary these days, but later I found out that so many Muslims were still doing this practice, and all based off of this unprovable contention.

As I posted before... these questions are the right of every Muslim and non-Muslim to enquirer about so no, nothing heritical about trying to find the true answers to these important questions... yet we see the reaction of posters on this very site. Why are they so desperate to deny, deflect and derail any attempt at discerning what the truth is? In the Quran kindness and fairness to children is mandated, so there is no way a grown man "marrying" and having sex with a child not even in double digits could be accepted... but as you can see for yourself, these people take hadeeth over Quran and when thats the case, pretty much anything can be made "permissible".

 

[TrollingTroubles]

Is it wrong to feel the way you do now if you was alive in the 7th century CE and holding the same view as modern day 21st century people? Yes. It is clearly wrong to apply a standard from one point in history and expect it to stick in another time. It isn’t a question of morality. It’s a question of societal acceptance. The two are different and you haven’t quite figured that out yet.

Keep up with that vulgar language, its your dawa.

That’s rich, coming from you man! You started with all the disses and cusses, you Zionist.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

That’s rich, coming from you man! You started with all the disses and cusses, you Zionist.

Ok... show us all where I cussed. Should be easy since you just claimed it. If you cant produce an example, its just another blatant lie from your clique of miserable miscreants. Zionist? Good grief, the more desperate you people get, the stupider you become.

 

[floss]

It never sat right with me but when I thought about the practice of young girls (teens) being married even a couple of decades ago here and the harsh landscape there at the time, I was willing to not fuss with it and investigate later. Also it was easier to understand because there was a solid bunch of brothers who were there when I took shahadda and they were pretty clear that it wasnt something that was necessary these days, but later I found out that so many Muslims were still doing this practice, and all based off of this unprovable contention.

As I posted before... these questions are the right of every Muslim and non-Muslim to enquirer about so no, nothing heritical about trying to find the true answers to these important questions... yet we see the reaction of posters on this very site. Why are they so desperate to deny, deflect and derail any attempt at discerning what the truth is? In the Quran kindness and fairness to children is mandated, so there is no way a grown man "marrying" and having sex with a child not even in double digits could be accepted... but as you can see for yourself, these people take hadeeth over Quran and when thats the case, pretty much anything can be made "permissible".

I'm as anger as you are in regards to pedo activities. It doesn't matter who it is, can be Trump, Biden, Putin -- who cares -- they all deserved the greatest judgement from God. I just happened to be in the Aisha was 6/9 camp which was the reason for me to lashed out against Muhammad. I just can't fathom a righteous God would use a man who married and consummated a little child AND had 10 other wives to be the "moral model for mankind". To me there was definitely some sexual perversion going on here. Imo, Jesus and Muhammad is like black and white.
As for being heretical (I actually don't see anything wrong with being a heretic), does the majority Muslim community see you as a heretic for your view? This is my intended question.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I'm as anger as you are in regards to pedo activities. It doesn't matter who it is, can be Trump, Biden, Putin -- who cares -- they all deserved the greatest judgement from God. I just happened to be in the Aisha was 6/9 camp which was the reason for me to lashed out against Muhammad. I just can't fathom a righteous God would use a man who married and consummated a little child AND had 10 other wives to be the "moral model for mankind". To me there was definitely some sexual perversion going on here. Imo, Jesus and Muhammad is like black and white.
As for being heretical (I actually don't see anything wrong with being a heretic), does the majority Muslim community see you as a heretic for your view? This is my intended question.

I think this thread has pretty well cleared the air and exposed what certain people are about. These people have no real basis for their 6-9 claims and those claims have been thoroughly debunked by the materials presented here. I dont expect you to become a Muslim or anything but I hope you have seen enough to discredit the 6-9 crowd. Similar to the ways people who want to disrespect Jesus make those despicable claims about him fathering children with prostitutes, engaging in incest and etc... Even when I was a Christian, there were things in various Bible translations which wouldnt be acceptable by todays standards, so I had to find a way to keep my faith without compromising my morals.

I honestly dont know or care what the majority of Muslims would label me as. If they are following standard Islamic practice, they would welcome these questions (from Muslims and non alike) and engage in respectful dialog if they felt they had answers... or remain silent if they didnt. As it stands, you can see that there are "Muslims" who are in complete opposition to their own Islamic code of ethics here.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

a 9 year old who has reached puberty is a grown woman. and she can get imregnated by another grown man who also has reached puberty whether 12 year old or 50.

the modern western definitions of stuff are made by the ELITE like nancy peloci thats why i injected her.
they define the terms VACCINE, VACCINATED, IMMUNITY and AGE OF MARRIAGE/CONSENT etc...

So where are these mythical 6-9 year old children who are physically/mentally/emotionally capable of taking on the responsibilities of a grown female spouse? Where are the 6-9 year old girls who are safely giving birth to children fathered by grown adults? The closest your crowd has come to offering an answer here is to claim that little girls on the Arabian Peninsula over 1400 years ago were somehow more advanced and developed than any other child aged 6-9 in the history of mankind, therefore allowing for your justification of grown men having sex with them.

Your unhinged Pelosi/vax tirade makes you look like a delusional ped-apologist.

 

[floss]

a 9 year old who has reached puberty is a grown woman. and she can get imregnated by another grown man who also has reached puberty whether 12 year old or 50.

Wuttt? This the kind of shit I can't take Islam seriously. This is straight up satanic. If you truly believe this, you're no different than those hollywood satanic pedo. The New World Order is built FOR YOU. Enjoy!

 

[floss]

You can take having sex with mupltiple girls and women at a time in the west but cannot take legal marriage and forming a family.

Show me where did I accept having sex with multiple girls and women at the same time? Marrying a 6yo and have sex at 9 is NOT forming a family. It's called p***philia. Let me see you give your 9yo away to a 55yo man to form a family. You're possessed by demon is the only explanation.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

.
Puberty Is Beginning Earlier in Girls, So What Can Parents Do?

The authors of a new book about the earlier onset of female puberty explain the evidence and offer advice

Brian Handwerk
Science Correspondent
December 26, 2014

Acne, awkwardness, body odor—puberty can be a tough time. But things get even more complicated when puberty starts at an exceptionally young age, and today many girls are beginning the process younger than ever before.

Puberty begins well before a girl's first menstruation, usually starting when hormone secretion from the brain's pituitary gland spurs the development of breasts and the growth of pubic hair. A few decades ago, doctors were taught that less than 5 percent of girls should be showing such signs of puberty, particularly breast development, before age 8, says Julianna Deardorff at the Berkeley School of Public Health.

“Now studies show 25 percent of African American girls have breast development at age 7. Fifteen percent of Hispanic girls and 10 percent of Caucasian girls show breast development by that age. Even that 10 percent number is dramatically higher than it was a few decades ago.”

When these processes begin at an earlier age, it can be more than socially awkward. Early puberty carries risks for girls' psychological and physical health, sometimes long after they have grown into adult women. Parents can help mitigate the chances of their children going through early puberty, and they can prevent many of its negative consequences if it does happen, say Deardorff and her colleague Louise Greenspan at Kaiser Permanente San Francisco. The pair recently collaborated on a book, The New Puberty, that examines the evidence and offers advice for parents. We asked Deardorff to give us some of the highlights:

How Do We Know Girls Are Entering Puberty Earlier?

“During the 1980s and 1990s, [University of North Carolina physician] Marcia Herman-Giddens noticed a phenomenon where a large number of girls coming into her clinic seemed to be developing earlier, some with breast development or pubic hair as young as age 5,” Deardorff says. In 1997, Herman-Giddens published a study in the journal Pediatrics suggesting that girls were beginning puberty earlier. Her research concluded that during the 1860s, girls had their first period around age 16. The age had reached 14 by 1920, Herman-Giddens found, and by 1997 had dropped to around 12 and a half. “That study ignited a maelstrom of controversy.” But other researchers have since added their own evidence, including a major 2010 Pediatrics study co-authored by Greenspan that revealed the early breast development rates cited above.

“Low and behold, it not only corroborated what Marcia Herman-Giddens had found in the 1990s, but it also showed that it was even a bit earlier," Deardorff says. "So I think it's pretty universally accepted now that breast development and pubic hair growth are starting earlier. But first menstruation doesn't seem to be accelerating at the same rate. Today girls get their period only about six months earlier than they did 40 years ago, but they are beginning to get their breasts two years earlier. So that has us really interested in why we would we be starting the process earlier, but not necessarily reaching menstruation earlier. We suspect that puberty is becoming a longer process, that the tempo of the first part of it might be slowing down."


The New Puberty: How to Navigate Early Development in Today's Girls
What happens when a girl has the brain of an 8-year-old and the body of a 13-year-old? A sea change is underway among many of today's girls: They are developing faster and entering puberty earlier than ever before.

Why Might This Be Happening?

“The evolution of this wouldn't be moving so quickly unless there was some environmental factor or factors prodding it," Deardorff says. Right now, doctors have three main suspects:

• Obesity: As of 2012, a staggering one in 5 U.S. children or adolescents are obese, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Over the last 30 years, the percentage of U.S. children classified as obese has nearly tripled, and the timing of this obesity explosion parallels the rise in early puberty.
  
  “We've known for a long time that you have to have a critical body weight in order to attain puberty," Deardorff says. "In ballerinas, gymnasts, people in times of famine, we see that puberty, and particularly menstruation, can be put on hold because the body just doesn't have enough resources to meet the demands of reproduction. But it's becoming increasingly clear that body weight doesn't just represent some kind of a minimum threshold. The more body fat a girl has, the earlier they go through puberty.”
  
  Some studies have shown that body weight, even as early as age 3, can predict a girl's chances of early puberty. One key link is a hormone known as leptin, which is produced by fat cells. In the brain, leptin reduces hunger and curbs appetite. Obese people usually produce more leptin than others, although their bodies don't respond to it as efficiently. Leptin levels also spike before puberty begins, so bodies with more fat cells can prompt puberty to begin earlier.

• Exposure to Hormone-Mimicking Chemicals: Girls' exposure to an array of potential chemical influences can begin in the womb, so that by the time an 8- or 9-year-old girl begins to undergo puberty, it's difficult to determine which, if any, of the many unintended substances found in her body may have helped trigger the change.
  
  Some endocrine-disrupting chemicals are undergoing specific tests for possible roles in early puberty. These chemicals are so structurally similar to estrogen that, when ingested, they cause estrogen-specific reactions throughout the body. They're found in antibiotics (and in the meat of antibiotic-fed animals), plastics, pesticides and other artificial substances. Natural products like lavender and tea tree oil can also mimic estrogen's effects on the body. Sorting out all the possible impacts of these substances is a confounding puzzle, further complicated by the hurdles involved in conducting tests on human children.
  
  “The research is really in its infancy. Animal studies show that certain chemicals act as endocrine disruptors in the body, certain chemicals can mimic estrogen in the body, which is at the core of the female's reproductive biology. But research to date certainly hasn’t found any smoking guns. We just don't know at what dose or what point in a person's development a certain chemical might or might not have those effects. It is very complicated formula to learn how they might impact the body of a growing girl.”

• Social and Psychological Stress: While stress may not be as strong of a driver compared to the other possibilities, research is suggesting that the body can launch a hormonal response to situations of danger or uncertainly, and it may work in synergy with the other two factors.
  
  “The home environment early in life … does have an impact on the timing of puberty. A family context that's unpredictable, inconsistent or unsafe, or a home with high levels of conflict and low levels of family warmth, these things have been shown to predict earlier puberty. That period of life from birth to 5 years of age, when a girl is probably the most plastic or malleable, is probably the key," says Deardorff.
  
  She adds that there is a huge social disparity involved in the onset of early puberty. This, more than the underlying genetics of any particular ethnicity, probably has more to do with why early puberty is so much more common among African American and Latino populations in the United States. “When you have 25 percent of African American girls entering puberty by age 7, versus 10 percent of Caucasian girls, there is an issue here. When you are talking about obesity, and exposure to poor environmental circumstances, and psycho-social stresses, we know that these things are more prevalent in communities that are struggling.”

What Problems Are Associated With Early Puberty?

“It's associated with a higher risk for depression, anxiety, body image issues and eating disorders. Also, [early puberty is linked to] the early onset of sexual activity and substance use, especially alcohol. And when girls start to initiate these problem behaviors earlier, like alcohol use for example, they are at much higher risk for problems later.”

Early onset of puberty may also play a role in later life, Deardorff says. Early pubic hair growth in overweight girls may be due to insulin resistance and has been linked to increased risk of metabolic disorders, including obesity, heart disease and diabetes. “Early menstruation has been shown in multiple studies to put girls at some higher risk later in life for breast cancer. There has also been evidence for increased risk of cardiovascular problems. There have even been a few studies showing that early menstruation leads to earlier all-cause mortality.” Deardorff adds that we know very little about the potential advantages that early puberty may provide because any potential benefits have been understudied.

What Can Parents Do?

In terms of preventing early puberty, parents might limit chemical exposures just as they would for a host of other health reasons, Deardorff says. Organizations like The Environmental Working Group produce consumer guides to toxic ingredients in foods, personal care products, cleaning supplies and more.

“Try to operate under the precautionary principle. Don't microwave food in plastic, store things in glass, try to use some protective wear instead of sunscreen if you can, don't smoke or expose your kids to second-hand smoke. There is some low-hanging fruit here, in terms of things you can do to reduce risks.” Perhaps the most important thing parents can do, however, is focus on the home and family environment and be there for their daughters.

“It appears that a really strong, safe family context seems to mitigate all or most of early puberty's short-term risks for adolescents. That's of immense importance for girls who are in early development. It's most important to build emotional closeness early. Don't start at age 14. Pay attention to your kids. Take some time out from your busy lives and devices and build that emotional bond that is so important to them.”


Editor's Note: This article has been updated with Louise Greenspan's correct affiliation.
Brian Handwerk is a science correspondent based in Amherst, New Hampshire.

Puberty Is Beginning Earlier in Girls, So What Can Parents Do?

The authors of a new book about the earlier onset of female puberty explain the evidence and offer advice

www.smithsonianmag.com

Nothing in what you posted here makes any sort of a defense for grown men raping and impregnating female children aged 6-9 and the child subsequently birthing another child of her own, then functioning as a full-on martial spouse to her "husband".

 

[floss]

having sex with multiple girls and women at the same time is Western culture and that to people like you is not a big deal. it is about moral/legal marriage between a grown up girl (who has reached puberty which means her body is ready to form a family) and another grown up man that makes you go ballistic and even talk about demon possession.

furthermore, Aisha was proud of being the wife of someone older than herself (Mohammad [pbuh])

I wonder how you figure this out? Did you see it in porn? Please expound on how you figure out sex with multiple girls are acceptable in "Western Culture"? By the way, I'm not even White, clearly you have this image of me being a White Westerner. Your world view are so limited. (Hint: Christianity is NOT a White man religion)

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I at least provided some research based articles to prove that girls aged 9-12 are having sex, but you are just calling names. thats all you have done in reply.

9-12 year olds having sex with male counterparts may result in pregnancy which shows their body has grown enough to be called adults. Nancy Pelosi is not the one to define what is an adult.

I didnt call you any names in my reply, I just stated the truth... nothing in what you posted defended your position or even really addressed outside of some vague generalities which would be stretched to the breaking point in any attempt to attach them to... excusing grown men having sex with children under 10, those children birthing children of their own, then entering into a lifetime of full-on Motherhood and spousal duties before even being aged in double digits.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

having sex with multiple girls and women at the same time is Western culture and that to people like you is not a big deal. it is about moral/legal marriage between a grown up girl (who has reached puberty which means her body is ready to form a family) and another grown up man that makes you go ballistic and even talk about demon possession.

furthermore, Aisha was proud of being the wife of someone older than herself (Mohammad [pbuh])

"having sex with multiple girls and women at the same time is Western culture"
So the word "harem" is from an English linguistic base?
You are responsible for your own attempts at introducing bizarre distraction points such as multiple sexual partners and etc. into the dialog here. Nobody is forcing you to do so...

 

[Awoken2]

9-12 year olds having sex with male counterparts may result in pregnancy which shows their body has grown enough to be called adults

And what about the little girls who didn't get pregnant? This shows that their body is NOT old enough to be "called" and adult...because they aren't...they're fucking children!...but the only way your type can find this out is by sticking your dick in them.

Since whem has a man's penis been the barometer of a female's physical development?

It wouldn't stand in any court I know as a form of defence.

Whichever book told you it's OK to do that...go burn the thing.