Aisha's age at the time of her marriage

[TrollingTroubles]

You frame this as a personal battle... one you feel you can "win" by successfully promoting child r*pe while simultaneously maintaining your VC charade that you care about childrens issues. Everyone can see what you represent here.

They sure can, champ! You have a nice day, ok? [pats your head]

 

[TokiEl]

It was not unusual just a century ago that girls in the west were married at 12 years of age.


Personally i think that's a bit early but that's how it was back then... but 9 is way too young unless of course you like little girls perhaps because of a little pindick.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

They sure can, champ! You have a nice day, ok? [pats your head]

Please keep your homo-centric behavior to yourself. Please stick to the topic of this thread.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

a woman is defined by nature, not by senator Nancy Pelosi.

Nature tells you that upon puberty a girl becomes able to get pregnant and have sexual relationship. Nancy Pelosi says NO! its so barbaric of nature.

Pregnancy always has its own risks and complications whether for 9 year old pregnant or 25 years old pregnant.

In June 2019, C-75 passed both houses of the Parliament of Canada and received royal assent, repealing section 159 and making the age of consent equal at 16 for all types of intercourse. before it was 18 years. so now that the parliamentarians define the age of consent at 16 while just before june it was harmful and thus illegal according to them folks sent by God. Similar is the case for age of marriage.

You are publically (yet anonymously online) advocating for grown men to "marry" and impregnate little girls aged between 6-9. Try promoting this behavior and public, then we can all note the reaction you receive.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

Please keep your homo-centric behavior to yourself. Please stick to the topic of this thread.

You pansy!

 

[TempestOfTempo]

You pansy!

No homo.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

No homo.

Same.

Here, check this out. I found this really interesting:https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/the-age-of-aisha-ra-rejecting-historical-revisionism-and-modernist-presumptions

The part which is titled “Child Marriage: is there such a thing?” is very interesting. The anthropology and historicity of the period are not only considered but also eye witness testimony to maturity and societal norms vs the invented concept of childhood and adolescence being challenged as an invention during the renaissance period of Europe, enlighten us to understand that we have a somewhat warped expectationof the past to align with our tainted expectations from the modern era. That’s not to say what was right and normal 1400 years ago should be the norm today. But to accept what was right and the norm 1400 years ago to be reflective of that time, up until the renaissance period across the European lands is historical and acceptable.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Same.

Here, check this out. I found this really interesting:https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/the-age-of-aisha-ra-rejecting-historical-revisionism-and-modernist-presumptions

The part which is titled “Child Marriage: is there such a thing?” is very interesting. The anthropology and historicity of the period are not only considered but also eye witness testimony to maturity and societal norms vs the invented concept of childhood and adolescence being challenged as an invention during the renaissance period of Europe, enlighten us to understand that we have a somewhat warped expectationof the past to align with our tainted expectations from the modern era. That’s not to say what was right and normal 1400 years ago should be the norm today. But to accept what was right and the norm 1400 years ago to be reflective of that time, up until the renaissance period across the European lands is historical and acceptable.

From the article you linked:
"The two ḥadīths above state that ʿĀʾisha3 was six when she married and nine when the marriage was consummated. These narrations come from the two most authentic books in the Islamic tradition following the Qurʿān"
This is a false equivalence... yes, the books of hadeeth/sunnah are respected by many, but to place them anywhere near the category of the Quran is a complete failure of honest presentation. The notion that those two books are anywhere near the level of Quran is just a complete, intentional fallacy.

"There are five main claims relevant to the contention that ʿĀʾisha married the Prophet in her teens and consummated the marriage in her late teens:
1. Hishām ibn ʿUrwa was the only one to narrate the ḥadīth, and he narrated it when he was in Iraq, a time when he was accused of having a bad memory.
The only "evidence" produced by the author is more hadeeth/sunnah-style accounts from people who support the 6-9 narrative. The author does not produce any outside proof to validate their claims regarding the dismissal of the first point of contention they addressed.

2. Asmaʾ, the older sister of ʿĀʾisha, was ten years older than ʿĀʾisha. Since Asmaʾ passed away in 73 AH/692 CE at the age of 100, this places ʿĀʾisha at eighteen years old when the marriage was consummated.
Again, the author completely sidesteps the chronological evidence and timeline and once again... the only counter they offer is more
hadeeth/sunnah-style "evidence". In fact, they are relying on hadeeth to both confirm and discredit their conclusions. Basically this amounts
to a case of "My hadeeth/sunnah is correct because I believe the narrators were more credible" and thats an opinion, far from an exact resolution.

3. Fāṭima was born at the time the Kaʿba was rebuilt, when the Prophet ﷺ was thirty-five years old, and she was five years older than ʿĀʾisha,
making Āʾisha around twelve years old when she married the Prophet.
The author employs what essentially equated to a "Things became too muddied, so there is no way to discern whats correct between these varying accounts" strategy. Except in doing so, they are again weakening their main (only) defense point, that hadeeth (which is the basis of their argument for 6-9 in the first place) is the sole authority to assign Aisha's proper age. They are claiming unequivocal proof of a 6-9
age window for marriage/consummation, yet their evidence comes from an imperfect and debatable source. And thats by their own estimation and account.

4. ʿĀʾisha participated in the Battle of ʾUḥud. Ibn ʿUmar narrates that the Prophet did not permit him to participate in Uḥud because he was fourteen, but when he was fifteen the Prophet gave him permission to fight in the battle of the Trench (Khandaq). Thus, ʿĀʾisha must have
been at least fifteen at the time of ʾUḥud, meaning she consummated the marriage at thirteen or fourteen years old.
I figured there may be some dispute regarding the age requirements of various roles during warfare such as soldier and nurse. I will have to look deeper into this and try to discern what the age requirements were for nursing duties in a combat zone before I weigh in.

5. ʿĀʾisha narrated in Bukhārī: “This revelation [in Sūra al-Qamar]: ‘Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and most bitter’ was revealed to Muḥammad in Makkah while I was a playful jāriya.”
This is a really glaring example of how (at best) imprecise the methods used to prove Aisha was 6-9 are as well as how easy it can be to
manipulate hadeeth/sunnah accounts to suit a particular narrative. "Some claim that the verse mentioned in the ḥadīth of Sūra al-Qamar
is Medinan, revealed in 4 AH, 5 AH, 6 AH, 7 AH, 9 AH, or 10 AH, thus pushing the age of ʿĀʾisha to be older. However,Ibn Ḥajar and Ibn
ʿĀshūr deny these claims. More specifically, Ibn Ḥajar states thatʿĀʾisha was born eight years before ˆ and was three years old when this
verse was revealed, which would place its date of revelation at 617 CE." Relying on statements such as "some claim" to prove/disprove a
contention may be useful if done in an honest fashion, but are hardly the definition of provably accurate.

The author then devolves into disturbing rhetorical arguments such as distracting with accusations of similar behavior in the Western world (as if those are the only people offended by this) and proposing that Muslim girls on the Arabian Peninsula at the time of Aisha's marriage were somehow more developmentally advanced than their global 9 year old contemporaries... as well as 6-9 females of today's modern world for that matter. The following will have some graphic examples and language so anyone easily offended may want to stop reading here...

Its cruelly ludicrous to suggest that somehow a grown mans penis is able to enter and fit into a 9 year old girls vagina as it would an actual grown woman without injuring/traumatizing the child. That is an unnatural notion and the entire civilized world agrees upon this and rejects the idea that grown men can have healthy sexual relationships with females aged 6-9... from a mental or physical perspective. Its also cruelly ludicrous to suggest that the physical capabilities for a 9 year old to bear children are healthy, advisable or even possible... then or now.

So the 5 claims the author investigated are legitimate points of contention and while I dont agree with the authors conclusion, at least there are conclusions to debate. There is nothing to debate regarding their conclusions after those 5 claims were addressed... just more apologies and excuses offered for the grown men and women participating in an outrageous sub-culture of p***philia, justified through manipulations of religious literature.

However, you were respectful and on-topic here so this is now a place where we can start to engage in a real dialog regarding the subject, even if we disagree about it.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

From the article you linked:
"The two ḥadīths above state that ʿĀʾisha3 was six when she married and nine when the marriage was consummated. These narrations come from the two most authentic books in the Islamic tradition following the Qurʿān"
This is a false equivalence... yes, the books of hadeeth/sunnah are respected by many, but to place them anywhere near the category of the Quran is a complete failure of honest presentation. The notion that those two books are anywhere near the level of Quran is just a complete, intentional fallacy.

"There are five main claims relevant to the contention that ʿĀʾisha married the Prophet in her teens and consummated the marriage in her late teens:
1. Hishām ibn ʿUrwa was the only one to narrate the ḥadīth, and he narrated it when he was in Iraq, a time when he was accused of having a bad memory.
The only "evidence" produced by the author is more hadeeth/sunnah-style accounts from people who support the 6-9 narrative. The author does not produce any outside proof to validate their claims regarding the dismissal of the first point of contention they addressed.

2. Asmaʾ, the older sister of ʿĀʾisha, was ten years older than ʿĀʾisha. Since Asmaʾ passed away in 73 AH/692 CE at the age of 100, this places ʿĀʾisha at eighteen years old when the marriage was consummated.
Again, the author completely sidesteps the chronological evidence and timeline and once again... the only counter they offer is more
hadeeth/sunnah-style "evidence". In fact, they are relying on hadeeth to both confirm and discredit their conclusions. Basically this amounts
to a case of "My hadeeth/sunnah is correct because I believe the narrators were more credible" and thats an opinion, far from an exact resolution.

3. Fāṭima was born at the time the Kaʿba was rebuilt, when the Prophet ﷺ was thirty-five years old, and she was five years older than ʿĀʾisha,
making Āʾisha around twelve years old when she married the Prophet.
The author employs what essentially equated to a "Things became too muddied, so there is no way to discern whats correct between these varying accounts" strategy. Except in doing so, they are again weakening their main (only) defense point, that hadeeth (which is the basis of their argument for 6-9 in the first place) is the sole authority to assign Aisha's proper age. They are claiming unequivocal proof of a 6-9
age window for marriage/consummation, yet their evidence comes from an imperfect and debatable source. And thats by their own estimation and account.

4. ʿĀʾisha participated in the Battle of ʾUḥud. Ibn ʿUmar narrates that the Prophet did not permit him to participate in Uḥud because he was fourteen, but when he was fifteen the Prophet gave him permission to fight in the battle of the Trench (Khandaq). Thus, ʿĀʾisha must have
been at least fifteen at the time of ʾUḥud, meaning she consummated the marriage at thirteen or fourteen years old.
I figured there may be some dispute regarding the age requirements of various roles during warfare such as soldier and nurse. I will have to look deeper into this and try to discern what the age requirements were for nursing duties in a combat zone before I weigh in.

5. ʿĀʾisha narrated in Bukhārī: “This revelation [in Sūra al-Qamar]: ‘Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and most bitter’ was revealed to Muḥammad in Makkah while I was a playful jāriya.”
This is a really glaring example of how (at best) imprecise the methods used to prove Aisha was 6-9 are as well as how easy it can be to
manipulate hadeeth/sunnah accounts to suit a particular narrative. "Some claim that the verse mentioned in the ḥadīth of Sūra al-Qamar
is Medinan, revealed in 4 AH, 5 AH, 6 AH, 7 AH, 9 AH, or 10 AH, thus pushing the age of ʿĀʾisha to be older. However,Ibn Ḥajar and Ibn
ʿĀshūr deny these claims. More specifically, Ibn Ḥajar states thatʿĀʾisha was born eight years before ˆ and was three years old when this
verse was revealed, which would place its date of revelation at 617 CE." Relying on statements such as "some claim" to prove/disprove a
contention may be useful if done in an honest fashion, but are hardly the definition of provably accurate.

The author then devolves into disturbing rhetorical arguments such as distracting with accusations of similar behavior in the Western world (as if those are the only people offended by this) and proposing that Muslim girls on the Arabian Peninsula at the time of Aisha's marriage were somehow more developmentally advanced than their global 9 year old contemporaries... as well as 6-9 females of today's modern world for that matter. The following will have some graphic examples and language so anyone easily offended may want to stop reading here...

Its cruelly ludicrous to suggest that somehow a grown mans penis is able to enter and fit into a 9 year old girls vagina as it would an actual grown woman without injuring/traumatizing the child. That is an unnatural notion and the entire civilized world agrees upon this and rejects the idea that grown men can have healthy sexual relationships with females aged 6-9... from a mental or physical perspective. Its also cruelly ludicrous to suggest that the physical capabilities for a 9 year old to bear children are healthy, advisable or even possible... then or now.

So the 5 claims the author investigated are legitimate points of contention and while I dont agree with the authors conclusion, at least there are conclusions to debate. There is nothing to debate regarding their conclusions after those 5 claims were addressed... just more apologies and excuses offered for the grown men and women participating in an outrageous sub-culture of p***philia, justified through manipulations of religious literature.

However, you were respectful and on-topic here so this is now a place where we can start to engage in a real dialog regarding the subject, even if we disagree about it.

I’m aware of the arguments presented which you have quoted but I think you are missing the point here slightly. Yaqeen Institute is showing the problematic nature of the arguments which you support.

I know you and I won’t see eye to eye on those, but that’s not the reason why I wanted you to have a look at the article. I wanted you to pay particular attention to the section titled “Child Marriages: Is there such a thing?” And respond to that part, because I believe any rational person with a sound intellect can see how the status quo of today’s expectations can never apply to those of the past because essentially, with every succeeding generation, childhood and adolescence becomes more prominent and therefore survives longer and longer into the lifespan of today’s people. 1400 years ago, childhood was short lived and adolescence, non existent.

It’s that particular part which I wanted you to respond to.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I’m aware of the arguments presented which you have quoted but I think you are missing the point here slightly. Yaqeen Institute is showing the problematic nature of the arguments which you support.

I know you and I won’t see eye to eye on those, but that’s not the reason why I wanted you to have a look at the article. I wanted you to pay particular attention to the section titled “Child Marriages: Is there such a thing?” And respond to that part, because I believe any rational person with a sound intellect can see how the status quo of today’s expectations can never apply to those of the past because essentially, with every succeeding generation, childhood and adolescence becomes more prominent and therefore survives longer and longer into the lifespan of today’s people. 1400 years ago, childhood was short lived and adolescence, non existent.

It’s that particular part which I wanted you to respond to.

My response is that regardless of comparative societal norms, there is no way for a grown man to have any sort of a healthy marital relationship with a girl aged 6-9, then or now. And when I look at the evidence, coupled with my belief that Muhammed was a prophet of scrupulous morality and action, I continue to reject the notion that he married a girl at 6 and began sexual relations with her at 9.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

My response is that regardless of comparative societal norms, there is no way for a grown man to have any sort of a healthy marital relationship with a girl aged 6-9, then or now. And when I look at the evidence, coupled with my belief that Muhammed was a prophet of scrupulous morality and action, I continue to reject the notion that he married a girl at 6 and began sexual relations with her at 9.

gah, you’ve missed the point again! You’re sounding like a broken record. I get it, you have an issue with the age thing, and I would too if it was my daughter in the modern age. What I’m starting to question is whether the same would still be true for me having my daughter married at 6-9 years of age to a man closer to my age if I was alive 1400 years ago. And I have to say, the more I look at the historical norms of those times and places, the less I think I would have had an issue with it.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

gah, you’ve missed the point again! You’re sounding like a broken record. I get it, you have an issue with the age thing, and I would too if it was my daughter in the modern age. What I’m starting to question is whether the same would still be true for me having my daughter married at 6-9 years of age to a man closer to my age if I was alive 1400 years ago. And I have to say, the more I look at the historical norms of those times and places, the less I think I would have had an issue with it.

I just dont agree that a 6-9 year old female was anymore capable physically/mentally/emotionally of being married to a grown man (and therefore responsible for all the duties that a grown female bride would be) back then or now. And because its such a cruel proposition, I dont feel that Muhammed would have been party to such behavior.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

I just dont agree that a 6-9 year old female was anymore capable physically/mentally/emotionally of being married to a grown man (and therefore responsible for all the duties that a grown female bride would be) back then as opposed to now.

It’s not about what you think happened. It’s about history and reality being different to what you think it should be. You don’t get to decide what the reality of history is. You can have an opinion, and choose to believe it, but for the rest of us who value historical nuances which present a very different tapestry of expectation compared to what we are living through - we prefer to challenge today’s norms instead those of history.

And because its such a cruel proposition,

According to today’s standard, where discipline and purpose are replaced by molly coddling a child into their late teens and even into their twenties, preparing them for a life of pleasurable pursuits and material greed as opposed to the norm of the 7th century where they were being prepared for spiritual enlightenment, moral pursuit and responsibility for more than the self, whilst living in a land where the climate was so harsh that childhood was a luxury which wasn’t even dreamt of let alone afforded, would be said to be cruel - according to your standard - don’t you think?

I dont feel that Muhammed would have been party to such behavior.

History doesn’t give a damn about how you “feel”. History only concerns itself with logging the facts.

In all likelihood, Aisha was most likely 6-9 years old when she was married and between 9-19 when she consummated but to say she was a child even if she was 9 would be an ahistorical presupposition and not anthropological.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

“Child Marriages: Is there such a thing?”

It’s that particular part which I wanted you to respond to.

I’ve taken the Liberty to copy paste that part of the article here:


Those who dispute the age of ʿĀʾisha at the time of her marriage have a difficult time comprehending that women during the time of the Prophet ﷺ reached puberty so young. Marrying a girl of that age would be considered a crime now, so how could one fathom them reaching puberty? Concerning child marriage, there are a few issues that need to be discussed.

The first question is whether women in the Arabian Peninsula reached puberty at the age of nine. As mentioned earlier, ʿĀʾisha said: “If a girl (jāriya) were to reach puberty at the age of nine, then she is a woman.”38 In addition, Imām Shāfiʿī39 said: “I saw many women in Yemen at the age of nine reaching the age of puberty.”40 He also said: “I saw in Ṣan‘ā’ a grandmother who was a girl the age of twenty-one years. Her daughter reached puberty at the age of nine and gave birth at the age of ten. The daughter of that girl also reached puberty at the age of nine and gave birth at the age of ten.” 41 Al-Ḥasan ibn Ṣaliḥ said: “I met with a slave girl that belonged to us who became a grandmother at the age of twenty-one.” 42 It becomes clear that there are many instances of girls reaching puberty at the age of nine, with some even giving birth at the age of ten in the Arabian Peninsula.

The second question is, how do we define what a child is? Neil Postman, a former professor at New York University, wrote the book The Disappearance of Childhood. In it, he argues that childhood was one of the great inventions of the Renaissance, just like any other social structure. Its development was closely correlated with the written tradition and the development of primary schools as opposed to the oral tradition in the Middle Ages. He states:

In an oral world there is not much of a concept of an adult and, therefore, even less of a child. And that is why, in all the sources, one finds that in the Middle Ages childhood ended at age seven. Why seven? Because that is the age at which children have command over speech. They can say and understand what adults can say and understand. They are able to know all the secrets of the tongue, which are the only secrets they need to know. And this helps us to explain why the Catholic Church designated age seven as the age at which one was assumed to know the difference between right and wrong, the age of reason. It also helps us to explain why, until the seventeenth century, the words used to denote young males could refer to men of thirty, forty, or fifty, for there was no word—in French, German, or English—for a young male between the ages of seven and sixteen. The word child expressed kinship, not an age. But most of all, the oralism of the Middle Ages helps us to explain why there were no primary schools. For where biology determines communication competence, there is no need for such schools…The medieval way of learning is the way of the oralist; it occurs essentially through apprenticeship and service—what we would call “on-the-job training.” Such schools as existed were characterized by a “lack of gradation in the curricula according to the difficulty of the subject matter, the simultaneity with which subjects were taught, the mixing of the ages, and the liberty of the pupils.” If a medieval child got to school, he would have begun as late as age ten, probably later. He would have lived on his own in lodgings in the town, far from his family. It would have been common for him to find in his class adults of all ages, and he would not have perceived himself as different from them. He certainly would not have found any correspondence between the ages of students and what they studied.43

The Islamic tradition is known for its attention to detail in oral transmissions, the ability to memorize thousands of lines of poetry and Qurʾān, and the mentorship each student of knowledge received from a long chain of scholars. This oral tradition emphasizing memorization could have advanced the age when a child would have command over speech and reason. In addition, the household jobs of women at the time exposed them to the life of adults more than those around their age. Thus, age was not a measure of one’s ability or status within society, but to establish lineage. In other words, it is impossible for someone younger than oneself to be one’s parent. Beyond this, age provided no concrete difference between one’s physical or mental capabilities. Thus, when scrutinizing the ḥadīth where Khawla offers both Sawda and ʿĀʾisha in marriage, the response of the Prophet ﷺ was identical for both, even though Khawla clearly differentiated the age to the Prophet. That is because society saw them no different, and that is why the Classical Medieval Islamic scholars made no mention of the age of ʿĀʾisha in marriage. It was only after the development of childhood did we attempt to impose that social structure onto a society that did not recognize it.


These evidences do not suggest that we as a society should promote child marriages and ignore current social norms. However, they do suggest that we are not at liberty to question the authenticity of every religious text that does not fit our current worldview.

End.

I am almost tempted to copy pasta another part from the same article but let’s take it point by point, so we can better determine the reality of that time against your “feelings”of how your version of a romanticised past would be expected to look like.

The two are vastly different.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

It’s not about what you think happened. It’s about history and reality being different to what you think it should be. You don’t get to decide what the reality of history is. You can have an opinion, and choose to believe it, but for the rest of us who value historical nuances which present a very different tapestry of expectation compared to what we are living through - we prefer to challenge today’s norms instead those of history.



According to today’s standard, where discipline and purpose are replaced by molly coddling a child into their late teens and even into their twenties, preparing them for a life of pleasurable pursuits and material greed as opposed to the norm of the 7th century where they were being prepared for spiritual enlightenment, moral pursuit and responsibility for more than the self, whilst living in a land where the climate was so harsh that childhood was a luxury which wasn’t even dreamt of let alone afforded, would be said to be cruel - according to your standard - don’t you think?

History doesn’t give a damn about how you “feel”. History only concerns itself with logging the facts.

In all likelihood, Aisha was most likely 6-9 years old when she was married and between 9-19 when she consummated but to say she was a child even if she was 9 would be an ahistorical presupposition and not anthropological.

I dont "think" that females aged 6-9 on the Arabian Peninsula in Aisha's time were anymore ready to act as a child bearing wife and Mother than their global counterparts, or children of today for that matter... I rely on a definition of human, physical reality which hasnt altered since then. Its absurd that you have suggested that these certain, specific female children were somehow able to act as full grown sexual and marital spouses. And even worse that you use your imaginary justification to promote it being done today. Your misuse of the current "it" word "nuance" does nothing to bolster your claim either. There is no "nuance" regarding a grown man sexually penetrating a 9 year old female, impregnating her and expecting her to assume all the other roles of a grown wife.

"According to today’s standard, where discipline and purpose are replaced by molly coddling a child into their late teens and even into their twenties, preparing them for a life of pleasurable pursuits and material greed"
Perhaps that was your experience growing up, but far too many children face a much harsher reality than your convenient contention.

You havent produced any factual, historical documentation for us to review regarding the matter, just more hadeeth/sunnah rehashes. Stop trying to paint me as being overly sensitive or guided by emotion... I dont "feel" its wrong for grown men to have sex with 9 year old girls, I KNOW it and the fact that you dont says way more about yourself than it does about the topic...

 

[TrollingTroubles]

I dont "think" that females aged 6-9 on the Arabian Peninsula in Aisha's time were anymore ready to act as a child bearing wife and Mother than their global counterparts, or children of today for that matter... I rely on a definition of human, physical reality which hasnt altered since then. Its absurd that you have suggested that these certain, specific female children were somehow able to act as full grown sexual and marital spouses. And even worse that you use your imaginary justification to promote it being done today. Your misuse of the current "it" word "nuance" does nothing to bolster your claim either. There is no "nuance" regarding a grown man sexually penetrating a 9 year old female, impregnating her and expecting her to assume all the other roles of a grown wife.

"According to today’s standard, where discipline and purpose are replaced by molly coddling a child into their late teens and even into their twenties, preparing them for a life of pleasurable pursuits and material greed"
Perhaps that was your experience growing up, but far too many children face a much harsher reality than your convenient contention.

You havent produced any factual, historical documentation for us to review regarding the matter, just more hadeeth/sunnah rehashes. Stop trying to paint me as being overly sensitive or guided by emotion... I dont "feel" its wrong for grown men to have sex with 9 year old girls, I KNOW it and the fact that you dont says way more about yourself than it does about the topic...

I hear you but find it hard to understand you due to your inconsistency. Most of what you say seems to make sense on the surface but all it takes is a little scratching below the surface to see exactly how insecure your opinions truly are.

Forgive me for making this about you, I won’t do that again here. Instead I will conclude by saying the assumption that the hadeeth of Aisha’s age can be disputed based on the indecency of child marriage is invalid because the concept of childhood did not exist during their time, the age of puberty for some girls was the age of nine, and their culture was simply different.

The claims that she was in her teens when she got married do not provide enough strong evidence to discard two explicit hadeeth in Bukhari and Muslim, but rather represent attempts to legitimize your own insecurities.

This is why the scholars discuss the difference between explicit (Qat’i) and implicit (Zanni) narrations. An implicit hadeeth, such as those hadeeth that help calculate Aisha’s age through other evidences, is not taken over an explicit Hadeeth that clearly and specifically details her age, as clearly explained in the claims in the link I dropped a few posts ago.

Once this is realized, then we can begin to question our worldview. Were child marriages during the time of the Prophet ﷺ something common? Were they looked down upon by society? The answers are 1) Yes they were common and 2) they were not looked down upon by society. And we are not just limiting this to the Arabian societies either. This was much the practice all over the civilised world at that time in history. It was normative, traditional and cultured practice that remained extant right up til the renaissance period of Europe.

And let’s be honest here, what you propose is a very normative, traditional and cultured practice of the modern day Europeans.

Is it wrong to feel the way you do? No. Neither you nor I would want our daughters who may be 9 years old to marry anyone at that age, let alone someone in their 50’s.

Is it wrong to feel the way you do now if you was alive in the 7th century CE and holding the same view as modern day 21st century people? Yes. It is clearly wrong to apply a standard from one point in history and expect it to stick in another time. It isn’t a question of morality. It’s a question of societal acceptance. The two are different and you haven’t quite figured that out yet.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I am talking about puberty. It shows readiness of the body of a female human to get pregnant.

And talking about the age of Aisha (RA), i know there is differences among the scholars and that is another thing.

I am not scared of Nancy Pelosi and i will publicly share my ideas if it makes sense with evidence (which is puberty).




yeah, and it was way way not unusual 14 centuries ago that girls were married at age 9.

your personal opinion is not others' opinion especially 1400 years ago.

You are trying to make excuses for grown men impregnating 9 year old girls. Not sure why you injected Nancy Pelosi into this but shes a part of the Epstein class... did you submit your application in to join her there yet?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I hear you but find it hard to understand you due to your inconsistency. Most of what you say seems to make sense on the surface but all it takes is a little scratching below the surface to see exactly how insecure your opinions truly are.

Forgive me for making this about you, I won’t do that again here. Instead I will conclude by saying the assumption that the hadeeth of Aisha’s age can be disputed based on the indecency of child marriage is invalid because the concept of childhood did not exist during their time, the age of puberty for some girls was the age of nine, and their culture was simply different.

The claims that she was in her teens when she got married do not provide enough strong evidence to discard two explicit hadeeth in Bukhari and Muslim, but rather represent attempts to legitimize your own insecurities.

This is why the scholars discuss the difference between explicit (Qat’i) and implicit (Zanni) narrations. An implicit hadeeth, such as those hadeeth that help calculate Aisha’s age through other evidences, is not taken over an explicit Hadeeth that clearly and specifically details her age, as clearly explained in the claims in the link I dropped a few posts ago.

Once this is realized, then we can begin to question our worldview. Were child marriages during the time of the Prophet ﷺ something common? Were they looked down upon by society? The answers are 1) Yes they were common and 2) they were not looked down upon by society. And we are not just limiting this to the Arabian societies either. This was much the practice all over the civilised world at that time in history. It was normative, traditional and cultured practice that remained extant right up til the renaissance period of Europe.

And let’s be honest here, what you propose is a very normative, traditional and cultured practice of the modern day Europeans.

Is it wrong to feel the way you do? No. Neither you nor I would want our daughters who may be 9 years old to marry anyone at that age, let alone someone in their 50’s.

Is it wrong to feel the way you do now if you was alive in the 7th century CE and holding the same view as modern day 21st century people? Yes. It is clearly wrong to apply a standard from one point in history and expect it to stick in another time. It isn’t a question of morality. It’s a question of societal acceptance. The two are different and you haven’t quite figured that out yet.

Your dishonest argument employs a tactic of repeatedly claiming that I refuse to recognize a difference in norms and morals which contrast our modern life to that of the Arabian Peninsula. Im well aware of the time differences between then and now. I have made that clear.

What you keep trying to hide (which is impossible to do with they way you keep posting) is that by accepting and promoting these faulty, unprovable hadeeth... you are advocating for this practice to continue. You are providing a faux-theological justification for the men and women who engage in this shameful practice of raping children. You, Daze, Friend, Desert Shibshib and the rest of your clique have spent no small amount of effort to howl in self-righteous indignation at Westerners engaged in ped activity (Epstein, Franklin Credit Union, the entertainment industry & etc.)... yet here you are not only excusing it, you are promoting it.

If you possessed videos and pictures of a grown man engaged in sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl, you would be guilty of possession of child porn... yet here you are excusing this shameful behavior which is an epidemic across the Muslim world. All based on a lie that you cant prove, even though this is a space for you to do so... if you could.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

Did you read my last post? Reason why I’m asking is because you sound like you’re on autopilot,

read my last post.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Did you read my last post? Reason why I’m asking is because you sound like you’re on autopilot,

read my last post.

Of course I read it you dishonest charlatain... thats why I responded to it. Thats also why you couldnt muster up a real reply here... yet couldnt let it go either lol