Abortion : The Otherside of the slippery slope

[Colonel Valerio]

Think about it fundamentalists. @Red Sky at Morning @Thunderian @Lisa and I would also pose this question to non-fundamentalist @Todd

If my father had his way I would be plucking all day on my

Up in heaven with Jesus and the prophets and God.

As is my Mom had her way and now I risk eternal damnation for a lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.

Who made the moral decision?

Edit: I wanna add @JoChris to the discussion because if you won’t debate The Bishop on moral issues maybe you will me.

 

[Todd]

Think about it fundamentalists. @Red Sky at Morning @Thunderian @Lisa and I would also pose this question to non-fundamentalist @Todd

If my father had his way I would be plucking all day on my

Up in heaven with Jesus and the prophets and God.

As is my Mom had her way and now I risk eternal damnation for a lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.

Who made the moral decision?

Edit: I wanna add @JoChris to the discussion because if you cowards won’t debate The Bishop on moral issues maybe you will me.

I think you know my answer since I don't believe in eternal damnation. Unborn babies don't go straight to heaven. They do not go into the Lake of fire either, but how can they be considered saints or members of the body of Christ, the bride of Christ. They did not go through any of the tribulations of life here on earth so they can not earn the rewards of the true saints of God. They also would not need to suffer the same corrective punishment/fire of God to enter the city of Zion as they were not tainted by the sin of this world.

If your father had your way, you would be denied the opportunity to be part of the bride of Christ. So I would say your father made the immoral choice. I don't consider you at risk for "eternal damnation" and if whatever level of faith/belief you may have in Christ (not the fundamentalist belief) does not qualify you as a member of the Bride of Christ, I don't think your "time" in the Lake of Fire would be very significant, as I believe you would quickly acknowledge the real truth of Jesus. I could envision you being one of the first welcomed into the City of God and receive the healing leaves of the tree of life from the Saints of God. But I'm not God or Christ, so it doesn't really matter what I think. Either way your Mother's choice is not immoral, unless of course God's choice to let any of us be born into this world is immoral. (Which of course is the whole conundrum you are posing to the fundamentalists anyway, right?)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Colonel Valerio - a good question as usual. I will give you my perspective and leave it to others to share theirs.

You said “lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.”

I was thinking about this as I was driving along and it occurred to me that there is the “data” of reality and the “narrative” of how we make sense of it. On a practical level, this takes place in courts of law all the time. There may be a dead body in the back garden. How did it get there? Two different narratives of reality are presented to the jury, neither of which may be true! Getting to the truth is tricky like that. You may end up with a court and a particular verdict coming out that has nothing to do with “reality” at all, in the same way as the ebb and flow of general opinion on a forum might be more towards one spiritual or philosophical position or another, without necessarily having the slightest thing to do with truth. Rather like jury members, we each have the chance to listen to the various accounts and decide for ourselves who we will believe and who we reject.

The Book of Job plays out in many ways like this fictional trial. Bad things happen to Job. God removes His hand of protection within certain limits. Satan takes delight in exacting destruction. Job has no information how or why such tragedy should befall him. It’s a long book, full of opinion pieces from various contributors but only at the end does God speak. Along the way, the idea to “curse God and die” is suggested to him, but fortunately that was not the end of the account.

In Job 38, God speaks:-

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:​

​

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel​

By words without knowledge?​

3 Now prepare yourself like a man;​

I will question you, and you shall answer Me...​

​

Job’s problem was that he lacked the understanding of what had really gone on and who God really was.

In inviting us to sit in moral judgement of God, there is the invitation to “darken council without knowledge”. There is perhaps in the mind of some the notion that if one might be able to create a persuasive moral narrative against God, He would cease to exist (or at least lose the right to judge sin, having shown himself to be a compromised judge).

In the latter parts of the Revelation of John, such a critique is attempted by those who remain on the earth. How does God have the right to judge them?

In many ways, this book seems to echo the situation of Job, where Gods hand of protection has been removed, Satan given a free hand and the narrative on the earth will be very much along the lines of hatred towards God, as presented presently by the Bishop.

 

[Todd]

@Colonel Valerio - a good question as usual. I will give you my perspective and leave it to others to share theirs.

You said “lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.”

I was thinking about this as I was driving along and it occurred to me that there is the “data” of reality and the “narrative” of how we make sense of it. On a practical level, this takes place in courts of law all the time. There may be a dead body in the back garden. How did it get there? Two different narratives of reality are presented to the jury, neither of which may be true! Getting to the truth is tricky like that. You may end up with a court and a particular verdict coming out that has nothing to do with “reality” at all, in the same way as the ebb and flow of general opinion on a forum might be more towards one spiritual or philosophical position or another, without necessarily having the slightest thing to do with truth. Rather like jury members, we each have the chance to listen to the various accounts and decide for ourselves who we will believe and who we reject.

The Book of Job plays out in many ways like this fictional trial. Bad things happen to Job. God removes His hand of protection within certain limits. Satan takes delight in exacting destruction. Job has no information how or why such tragedy should befall him. It’s a long book, full of opinion pieces from various contributors but only at the end does God speak. Along the way, the idea to “curse God and die” is suggested to him, but fortunately that was not the end of the account.

In Job 38, God speaks:-

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:​

​

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel​

By words without knowledge?​

3 Now prepare yourself like a man;​

I will question you, and you shall answer Me...​

​

​

Job’s problem was that he lacked the understanding of what had really gone on and who God really was.

In inviting us to sit in moral judgement of God, there is the invitation to “darken council without knowledge”. There is perhaps in the mind of some the notion that if one might be able to create a persuasive moral narrative against God, He would cease to exist (or at least lose the right to judge sin, having shown himself to be a compromised judge).

In the latter parts of the Revelation of John, such a critique is attempted by those who remain on the earth. How does God have the right to judge them?

In many ways, this book seems to echo the situation of Job, where Gods hand of protection has been removed, Satan given a free hand and the narrative on the earth will be very much along the lines of hatred towards God, as presented presently by the Bishop.

Red, I agree with your basic argument about sitting in moral judgement of God, but the Bible also says to seek understanding, to knock and the door will be opened and to ask and you shall receive. Unlike many who make quick judgements against God as an excuse to dismiss him, I believe @Colonel Valerio has searched the scriptures and has sincerely sought answers to his questions and doubts.

The real issue is not that he wants to explain or argue away the existence of the God of the Bible. If anything he has shown me a true desire and hope to know the real God. The issue is that he does not see the consistency or moral nobility in the "fundamentalist" interpretation of scripture. He does not deny wisdom in the Bible, he just questions the fundamental literal intrepretation of it.

The reality that he speaks of is the fact that if one interprets the actual recorded words of Jesus literally, it is quite a bit at odds with orthodox "fundamental" Christian teaching. Orthodox Christianity pressumes that Jesus did not present the whole picture and his literal words applied only to a dispensation that no longer exists. It relies on the esoteric teaching of Paul to formulate the reality of the current dispensation. Many of us find the literal teaching of Jesus more noble and moral than the orthodox teaching dervied from the writings of Paul. Hence the inability to believe the "fundemental" interpretation of Christianity.

@Colonel Valerio please feel free to tell me I'm way off base here, when it comes to your objections to orthodox/fundamental Christianity.

 

[Lisa]

Anyway a woman’s right to choose led to that decision, to tell you the truth if I could go back now I’d tell her my dad was right.

Your dad was wrong...

Think about it fundamentalists. @Red Sky at Morning @Thunderian @Lisa and I would also pose this question to non-fundamentalist @Todd

If my father had his way I would be plucking all day on my

Up in heaven with Jesus and the prophets and God.

As is my Mom had her way and now I risk eternal damnation for a lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.

Who made the moral decision?

Edit: I wanna add @JoChris to the discussion because if you cowards won’t debate The Bishop on moral issues maybe you will me.

How do you know that you would be in heaven right now? Considering no one comes back from the dead..how do you know that you would be plucking on a harp if you were there?

Your mom made the moral decision to not abort/kill you, you are very lucky that she was the one who won that argument...and I’m thankful that she did!

 

[Colonel Valerio]

I think you know my answer since I don't believe in eternal damnation. Unborn babies don't go straight to heaven. They do not go into the Lake of fire either, but how can they be considered saints or members of the body of Christ, the bride of Christ. They did not go through any of the tribulations of life here on earth so they can not earn the rewards of the true saints of God. They also would not need to suffer the same corrective punishment/fire of God to enter the city of Zion as they were not tainted by the sin of this world.

If your father had your way, you would be denied the opportunity to be part of the bride of Christ. So I would say your father made the immoral choice. I don't consider you at risk for "eternal damnation" and if whatever level of faith/belief you may have in Christ (not the fundamentalist belief) does not qualify you as a member of the Bride of Christ, I don't think your "time" in the Lake of Fire would be very significant, as I believe you would quickly acknowledge the real truth of Jesus. I could envision you being one of the first welcomed into the City of God and receive the healing leaves of the tree of life from the Saints of God. But I'm not God or Christ, so it doesn't really matter what I think. Either way your Mother's choice is not immoral, unless of course God's choice to let any of us be born into this world is immoral. (Which of course is the whole conundrum you are posing to the fundamentalists anyway, right?)

See, this I why I wanted to include you in this discussion because this is a moral position, and much more in-line with what is supposed to be a loving and moral God.

I can’t bring myself to believe in a theistic sentient all-powerful active creator who knows what is going on in the hearts and minds of all 7 billion of us. At this time I have to accept a more Spinozan view of God.

And yes that is the conundrum, had I been aborted I never would have developed into a person who can not accept their idea of “salvation”. Since according to them I am hell-bound, abortion would have been a mercy.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

@Colonel Valerio - a good question as usual. I will give you my perspective and leave it to others to share theirs.

You said “lack of belief that I can not believe in because it doesn’t co-exist with reality.”

I was thinking about this as I was driving along and it occurred to me that there is the “data” of reality and the “narrative” of how we make sense of it. On a practical level, this takes place in courts of law all the time. There may be a dead body in the back garden. How did it get there? Two different narratives of reality are presented to the jury, neither of which may be true! Getting to the truth is tricky like that. You may end up with a court and a particular verdict coming out that has nothing to do with “reality” at all, in the same way as the ebb and flow of general opinion on a forum might be more towards one spiritual or philosophical position or another, without necessarily having the slightest thing to do with truth. Rather like jury members, we each have the chance to listen to the various accounts and decide for ourselves who we will believe and who we reject.

The Book of Job plays out in many ways like this fictional trial. Bad things happen to Job. God removes His hand of protection within certain limits. Satan takes delight in exacting destruction. Job has no information how or why such tragedy should befall him. It’s a long book, full of opinion pieces from various contributors but only at the end does God speak. Along the way, the idea to “curse God and die” is suggested to him, but fortunately that was not the end of the account.

In Job 38, God speaks:-

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:​

​

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel​

By words without knowledge?​

3 Now prepare yourself like a man;​

I will question you, and you shall answer Me...​

​

Job’s problem was that he lacked the understanding of what had really gone on and who God really was.

In inviting us to sit in moral judgement of God, there is the invitation to “darken council without knowledge”. There is perhaps in the mind of some the notion that if one might be able to create a persuasive moral narrative against God, He would cease to exist (or at least lose the right to judge sin, having shown himself to be a compromised judge).

In the latter parts of the Revelation of John, such a critique is attempted by those who remain on the earth. How does God have the right to judge them?

In many ways, this book seems to echo the situation of Job, where Gods hand of protection has been removed, Satan given a free hand and the narrative on the earth will be very much along the lines of hatred towards God, as presented presently by the Bishop.

I think it’s fair to examine the actions of God and judge them against the moral standard he gives to us.

If a politician or preacher, say, preaches a hard line on sexual morality, but privately goes to a swingers club on the weekend, does he not lose his “moral authority”?

I’m glad you brought up Job, if that is anything other than allegory it makes God a sadist.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Red, I agree with your basic argument about sitting in moral judgement of God, but the Bible also says to seek understanding, to knock and the door will be opened and to ask and you shall receive. Unlike many who make quick judgements against God as an excuse to dismiss him, I believe @Colonel Valerio has searched the scriptures and has sincerely sought answers to his questions and doubts.

The real issue is not that he wants to explain or argue away the existence of the God of the Bible. If anything he has shown me a true desire and hope to know the real God. The issue is that he does not see the consistency or moral nobility in the "fundamentalist" interpretation of scripture. He does not deny wisdom in the Bible, he just questions the fundamental literal intrepretation of it.

The reality that he speaks of is the fact that if one interprets the actual recorded words of Jesus literally, it is quite a bit at odds with orthodox "fundamental" Christian teaching. Orthodox Christianity pressumes that Jesus did not present the whole picture and his literal words applied only to a dispensation that no longer exists. It relies on the esoteric teaching of Paul to formulate the reality of the current dispensation. Many of us find the literal teaching of Jesus more noble and moral than the orthodox teaching dervied from the writings of Paul. Hence the inability to believe the "fundemental" interpretation of Christianity.

@Colonel Valerio please feel free to tell me I'm way off base here, when it comes to your objections to orthodox/fundamental Christianity.

Yes, that is largely it. The biggest concern for me is the ethical teaching of Christ completely abandoned for faith alone, once saved always saved and obsessing over Revelation.

I would also add though that the fundamentalist interpretation and insistence on treating the Bible as if it’s a science and history book.

The truth is we do know that people existed a long time before God revealed himself to the Hebrews. Which raises this question, why would God reveal himself only to a tiny group of desert nomads?

And here’s another question, can you really say that for example, a Bhutanese villager will have a realistic chance of accepting the Gospel?

On the off chance they even hear about it, it can’t be expected to be understood or accepted against their culture.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Your dad was wrong...


How do you know that you would be in heaven right now? Considering no one comes back from the dead..how do you know that you would be plucking on a harp if you were there?

Your mom made the moral decision to not abort/kill you, you are very lucky that she was the one who won that argument...and I’m thankful that she did!

Ok then, what happens to the unborn?

I think you took the line about harps a little too literally lol

Am I lucky? That’s the point you dodged. I’m not going to have some conversion where I feel filled with the Holy Spirit drop to my knees and become born again, join a IB church and start voting Republican. So according to your logic I’m going to an eternal torture dimension, my mom’s choice led to this, if my dad had his way I would have been spared this torment, unless you think the unborn burn too?

 

[Todd]

At this time I have to accept a more Spinozan view of God.

I can't say I am much of an expert on Spinoza's thoughts about God, but from what I know in the end he may have a more accurate concept of God than orthodox Christianity. Paul wrote what I believe is concept that is foreign to most Christians

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Most Christians believe that we are going to remian individual entities for all eternity. But I suspect that Paul might be hinting at something else here. The "eternal" life that Christians think of is in the greek more accurately translated as the life of the ages. An age or eon is a finite period of time. Time is part of creation, not eternity. Time will cease to exist at some point.

According to the passage above written by Paul in the ages to come every man is his own order shall be made alive. But eventually in the ages to come every power authority and rule will be put down and death will be destroyed. (How can death by destroyed if even one single person from history is not alive in Christ?). Once this is all done and all things are put under the rule of Christ, Christ himself will be subjected to God so that "God may be all in all". Is Paul hinting here that everything will return to God and will we no longer exist as seperate distinct entities for eternit? Will we all just be absorbed back into the substance of God himself? Paul also wrote "it is I that no longer live but Christ that lives within me". The ultimate expression of that is that none of us will exist for "eternity" as distinct individuals but we will all return to the substance of God himself.

Just some thoughts...nothing I've worked out to any absolute conclusions yet.

 

[Lisa]

Ok then, what happens to the unborn?

I think you took the line about harps a little too literally lol

Am I lucky? That’s the point you dodged. I’m not going to have some conversion where I feel filled with the Holy Spirit drop to my knees and become born again, join a IB church and start voting Republican. So according to your logic I’m going to an eternal torture dimension, my mom’s choice led to this, if my dad had his way I would have been spared this torment, unless you think the unborn burn too?

I didn’t see a lol so I don’t know if you really believe that people play harps in heaven or not. I was in a store once and a man was talking about heaven and hell and he thought that people in heaven played harps and wanted to be in hell where the party was...

I don’t actually know what happens to the unborn so I can’t really comment about what happens to them.

I think you are lucky to be alive and not unborn, ya, I doubt dying in the womb is a great thing, death isn’t good.I don’t think your mom’s choice led anywhere except you being alive. I think she did the right thing. Its your choice whether you want to believe in Jesus or not, that’s not your mom’s fault.

 

[justjess]

Death is a part of life. It isn’t good or bad. It just is. And for someone who believes so strongly in a better afterlife existing it is a little odd to hear you say death is bad...

It’s a biggie song - “if I die, fuck it I want to go to hell... don’t make sense going to heaven with the goodie goodies, dressed in white - I like black Tim’s and black hoodies” - no one literally thinks there’s harps or whatever, it’s allegorical. (Much like the Bible so I guess I can see how you’d miss that here too)

My opinion, though not requested, is that if a child is not born in some sense it is spared pain and better off in the long run - that is if it’s even been ensouled yet. So you’d be talking late term abortion, late term miscarriage, stillbirth.. rare situations. Had your mother aborted you when most people do you’d just ceased to have existed at least in your current body. Had she aborted you past ensoulment you’d have been spared the threat of hell.

Every church I’ve looked at has shared a similar stance about what happens to the unborn.

 

[Lisa]

Death is a part of life. It isn’t good or bad. It just is. And for someone who believes so strongly in a better afterlife existing it is a little odd to hear you say death is bad...

Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭
From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.​

That doesn’t sound good..

I don’t remember talking about the afterlife with you? Ya, death isn’t a good thing it’s a punishment. Probably why everyone cries when someone dies, it’s a sad moment in life..nothing to look forward to.

Much like the Bible so I guess I can see how you’d miss that here too)

I’d say most of the Bible is literal.

My opinion, though not requested, is that if a child is not born in some sense it is spared pain and better off in the long run

I think that’s the hope, but how does anyone really know when the Bible doesn’t say?

 

[justjess]

Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭​

From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.​

That doesn’t sound good..

I don’t remember talking about the afterlife with you? Ya, death isn’t a good thing it’s a punishment. Probably why everyone cries when someone dies, it’s a sad moment in life..nothing to look forward to.


I’d say most of the Bible is literal.


I think that’s the hope, but how does anyone really know when the Bible doesn’t say?

They are talking about spiritual death there.. u know that.

The afterlife and reunion with god and Jesus is the whole goal of Christianity i thought... this life is temporary and burdensome and the afterlife is eternal paradise.

By the nature of a loving god. That’s how you know. If you aren’t born you haven’t been touched by original sin. You can’t rot in hell.

 

[Lisa]

They are talking about spiritual death there.. u know that.

They are talking about death, death.

The afterlife and reunion with god and Jesus is the whole goal of Christianity i thought... this life is temporary and burdensome and the afterlife is eternal paradise.

The whole goal of Christianity is to let people know that there is forgiveness of sins and a way out of the punishment of the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth not to mention reconciliation with God the Father.

This life is temporary and sometimes burdensome but there are still good things in life to be happy about. There is a long way to go to that paradise you are thinking of..lawlessness getting worse, the great trib, the millennium...lots of stuff before the new heaven and new earth. I don’t really know that that is the end goal, reconciliation with God is.

By the nature of a loving god. That’s how you know. If you aren’t born you haven’t been touched by original sin. You can’t rot in hell.

That’s the hope isn’t it? There isn’t anything Biblically either way to know for sure one way or another.

 

[mecca]

The truth is we do know that people existed a long time before God revealed himself to the Hebrews. Which raises this question, why would God reveal himself only to a tiny group of desert nomads?

Because they created their own religion and placed themselves at the center of it. It's pretty convenient that the people who wrote the book designated themselves and their own group as "God's chosen people" despite all the other people in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

 

[Lisa]

Because they created their own religion and placed themselves at the center of it. It's pretty convenient that the people who wrote the book designated themselves and their own group as "God's chosen people" despite all the other people in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

If they were in charge of creating their own religion, I’m sure they wouldn’t have created a god who got angry with them and punished them. Who would have let them stay on the land he gave them and let them rule the world..but the God that is their God has gotten angry with them, called them harlots when they went after other god’s, which they did a lot. He even punished them by letting them get taken out of their land and roam the world..I’d create an easier God to get along with.

 

[justjess]

They are talking about death, death.

The whole goal of Christianity is to let people know that there is forgiveness of sins and a way out of the punishment of the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth not to mention reconciliation with God the Father.

This life is temporary and sometimes burdensome but there are still good things in life to be happy about. There is a long way to go to that paradise you are thinking of..lawlessness getting worse, the great trib, the millennium...lots of stuff before the new heaven and new earth. I don’t really know that that is the end goal, reconciliation with God is.

That’s the hope isn’t it? There isn’t anything Biblically either way to know for sure one way or another.

Yeah... reconciliation with god. Which happens after death. Please don’t pretend like your religion doesn’t have a big focus on what happens after this life because it does. That’s the goal, a happy afterlife vs hellfire. Death isn’t something to be feared if your saved.

Adam and Eve didn’t immediately die though did they? The problem here seems to be literalism..

 

[Lisa]

Yeah... reconciliation with god. Which happens after death.

No that happens when you believe in Jesus..you’re not separated from God by sin anymore, you’re then reconciled to the Father.

Please don’t pretend like your religion doesn’t have a big focus on what happens after this life because it does.

I think a lot of people only focus on heaven but I don’t, there is a life to live now.

Death isn’t something to be feared if your saved.

I’m not afraid of where I will go, I trust God but I’m not overly fond of finding out what it’s like to die.

Adam and Eve didn’t immediately die though did they?

I’m not sure what you’re asking here?

 

[mecca]

If they were in charge of creating their own religion, I’m sure they wouldn’t have created a god who got angry with them and punished them. Who would have let them stay on the land he gave them and let them rule the world..but the God that is their God has gotten angry with them, called them harlots when they went after other god’s, which they did a lot. He even punished them by letting them get taken out of their land and roam the world..I’d create an easier God to get along with.

The religion revolves around the lives and experiences of that specific small group of people because it’s their religion and they created it. Their religion is based on their personal stories, culture, traditions, and beliefs which is why their God is specifically focused on them as a group and why he’s invested in their culture and society. The Gods of other religions are focused on other groups, locations, and cultures because they arose as a part of those different people’s societies.