ACTS 2 is the fulfillment of the foretold arrival of the Holy Spirit.
The Law condemns.
The Gentiles are covered, already-- all of them / us. What you (correctly) pointed out concerning the Patriarchs in the OT (saved by faith... idk why you said "before the law" though; it wasn't), extended to the Gentiles, as well--> as Jesus reminded the crowd in the synagogue at Nazareth, in the time of Elijah, and then Elisha, of the many widows and lepers, only Zarephath of Sidon and Naaman of Syria-- both Gentiles-- were helped and healed (respectively). Why... because they believed Jehovah the God of Israel could heal them. The people in the synagogue became seriously p.o.'d when He said that.
I need a clarification here: do you believe the term Gentiles applies to Arabs / the descendants of Ishmael, exclusively? Even if so, this is also covered in the bible-- Arabs in Acts 2 (linked above) and the blessing of Ishmael--
twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. His genealogy is recorded in Genesis 25, with the names of his 12 sons listed in order of birth; Isaac's genealogy follows.
Revelation 11-- are you sure? This chapter essentially declares the advent of the Antichrist-- the Beast from the Abyss.
The integration of the Gentiles in both the old and new testaments, is fundamental--> the Good News. And while I can certainly appreciate the effort you've put into research-- and I do-- the bible is emphatic concerning additions, removal and changes. Warnings of false prophets to come
abound, from Jesus.
But the quran definitely qualifies as another gospel-- take this, for instance, from the first part of your response--
which directly kills the
trinitarian pagan doctrine of...
That has nothing to do with my statement-- so what is your point? Unless you're acknowledging the difference between the messages in the bible and the quran.
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1)
The truth is the holy spirit has always been active and working in people, before Jesus and after. It's a question of what Jesus meant specifically in John 16 and what it led to.
The first thing is, why was it necessary for Jesus to go for the advocate to come? it links to "the sceptre shall not depart from judah until shiloh has come". Isaiah 42 also extends to this
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
'a light for the gentiles', meaning the gentile period was coming. This is what leads me to break down Paul's own arguments. The patriarchs were 'righteous by faith BEFORE THE LAW' ie before Moses came with the law, the patriarchs were already righteous by faith. YET God saw fit to bring the law of Moses. Paul was defending the purpose of the law, not trashing it. His argument was that the law was necessary to expose the depths of sin and thus open the way for God's Grace. Why didnt God just bring about His Grace immediately? why all of this running around in the desert with Moses, over 1200 yrs of faffing around between politics and religion. Basically the israelites were taken to Egypt for 400 yrs, enslaved and lost their way there, lost their beliefs and thus that 'Grace of God' they were living under was rendered non applicable. Instead of simply forgiving them and teaching them the way, they were instead given the Torah. So, if they could lose their way in egypt, why are christians exempt? you're not exempt and that's part ofmy point on christianity vs xtianity.
Yes, for sure the gentiles who knew/met Jesus and accepted him, were saved..but im talking about every non-israelite since then. The entire gentile world. saved or not, like the patriarchs or not, the point is even the israelites lost their way eventually despite being under faith.
Just an example of that, the 7 churches of Revelation, they were in cities that are all muslim cities today. the holy spirit was watching those churches and yet, saw fit, to remove them. Just as the israelites lost their position under faith and came under the law, this is what was necessary for gentiles.
So, for the gentile story to come to completion, it was necessary for the gentiles to go through the same process, coming under faith first under christianity, to lose their way and then come under the law through a gentile prophet. also just to add, the gentiles are non-israelites, inc the ishmaelites.
2)
You mentioned how Ismael had 12 sons. Ismael lived in the arse end of nowhere, he was a nomad, so he was a king of no one. how could he raise 12 princes if they ruled over nothing? What that is, is just the mythos aspect of scripture ie told from a jewish/israelite perspective. it doesnt need to dwell on the ishmaelite story.
God said 'I will make him a GREAT NATION'. Have a little bit of a think about this one...
babylon, persia, greece, rome, were 'great nations' right? and yet their relevance and even their greatness was only due to their connection/rule over the temple mount. Therefore a great nation on God's terms is going to be way more impressive than all of them 4 beasts.
This is the part where im forced to give you a big song and dance about the acheivements of islam and it's relation to the biblical themes/prophecies.....
3)
the parable of tenants. The vineyard (isaiah 5, Jerusalem). So God would give the vineyard to other people and they would produce the fruits.
Between islam and christianity, muslims ruled it longer and christianity had a 600 year head start (no ego in this point, since it isnt even my own acheivement, its the past, different class of people from us).
It would be foolish to just pretend this wasnt significant though.
4)
ive shared this previously, but here goes
Muslims conquered Jerusalem in
637AD
first crusade where it was lost to Christians..
1099AD
Muslims took it back in 1187 and held it till 1948. 761 years and 462 years
Total 1223 years of Muslim control.
In lunar years that is 1223 X 1.03068
That comes to exactly 1260 years.
Revelation 11, '1260 days' (days represent years in a lot of OT prophecy)
Now about the 2 olive trees in this prophecy, in my personal understanding of metaphysics, i tend to think of the passive and active element relating to the left and right brain hemisphere and connecting with God's Trancendence and Immanence and furthermore our metaphysical descent and ascent.
yet, this is the suffering servant archetype and the davidic conquerer archetype aswell. We find that in Jesus obviously, but with Jesus it isnt fully fulfilled yet, the right side/active side is not fulfilld yet.
Jesus being the Word is the Macrocosmic expression of God's Immanence, the Holy Spirit being the microcosmic, means that whatever would happen (linked to john 16) would be a microcosmic version, a 'foreshadowing' or a reflection on a lesser level.
" That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” "
ie the holy spirit is a reflection of the Son on the microcosmic level.
If you dont know what i mean by macrocosmic and microcosmic. It also relates to the Law and to the higher system of Faith (or Grace).
The law is an extention of individual consciousness whereas the higher system of faith is about severing the connection to our individuality and becoming part of universal consciousness. The teachings of Jesus 'turn the other cheek' 'forgiveness' and certainly the cross, represent that death of the ego. Eg the circimcusion (law) represents the cutting of the flesh, whereas the cross represents the death of the flesh.
Now a perfect example of this whole theme is there in Surah 18 (which is called The Cave, named after the story of the 7 sleepers, who were christian).
Much of this chapter delves on the left/right topic (you should study it). However it gives us a story of Moses being taught by a person/being called Khidr.
18. Al-Kahf - سورة الكهف - ( The Cave ) - Read Quran القران الكريم in English translation by Pickthal - SearchTruth
www.searchtruth.com
| 60. And when Moses said unto his servant: I will not give up until I reach the point where the two rivers meet, though I march on for ages. |
| 61. And when they reached the point where the two met, they forgot their fish, and it took its way into the waters, being free. |
| 62. And when they had gone further, he said unto his servant: Bring us our breakfast. Verily we have found fatigue in this our journey. |
| 63. He said: Didst thou see, when we took refuge on the rock, and I forgot the fish - and none but Satan caused me to forget to mention it - it took its way into the waters by a marvel. |
| 64. He said: This is that which we have been seeking. So they retraced their steps again. |
| 65. Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence. |
| 66. Moses said unto him: May I follow thee, to the end that thou mayst teach me right conduct of that which thou hast been taught? |
| 67. He said: Lo! thou canst not bear with me. |
| 68. How canst thou bear with that whereof thou canst not compass any knowledge? |
| 69. He said: Allah willing, thou shalt find me patient and I shall not in aught gainsay thee. |
| 70. He said: Well, if thou go with me, ask me not concerning aught till I myself make mention of it unto thee. |
| 71. So they twain set out till, when they were in the ship, he made a hole therein. (Moses) said: Hast thou made a hole therein to drown the folk thereof? Thou verily hast done a dreadful thing. |
| 72. He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me? |
| 73. (Moses) said: Be not wroth with me that I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my fault. |
| 74. So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing. |
| 75. He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me? |
| 76. (Moses) said: If I ask thee after this concerning aught, keep not company with me. Thou hast received an excuse from me. |
| 77. So they twain journeyed on till, when they came unto the folk of a certain township, they asked its folk for food, but they refused to make them guests. And they found therein a wall upon the point of falling into ruin, and he repaired it. (Moses) said: If thou hadst wished, thou couldst have taken payment for it. |
| 78. He said: This is the parting between thee and me! I will announce unto thee the interpretation of that thou couldst not bear with patience. |
| 79. As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force. |
| 80. And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief. |
| 81. And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy. |
| 82. And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear. |
even the part of the 'fish' is symbolised further in the Ichthys symbol in christianity which unites the 2 points of duality to 1.
My point btw, here, is that islam represents archetypes on the lesser level, the microcosmic..whereas Jesus upon his return is going to bring completion again. The death of the 2 olive trees represents that. the world refusing them burial for 3 days and then their resurrection, it obv connected to the crucifixion aswell...which ultimately brings completion to the system of law that islam is representing. it is the gentile period going full circle, just like the jewish period until Jesus came.
Rev 11 goes from the gentiles to the antichrist ie the antichrist comes after the gentile period. so, you might want to treat carefully if you're an israel fanboy.
Mohammad in Mecca was the suffering servant archetype at play and then in Madina he came the conquerer/ruler.
The Quran is similarly divided in 2 sections. The Meccan chapters and the Madani chapters.
Islam's role is essential as a foreshadowing leading to Jesus's second coming.
another example of that..
In Daniel 2, it is Jesus as the 'rock' that smashes the feet of iron/clay, destroying the whole image representing the Beast system.
Now the end times beast, is a combination of the 4 previous beasts.
Look at the 4 beasts. Babylon, it was still existing under the christian era, until islam came and ended babylon.
Persia was conquered by islam. Byzantine empire representing eastern rome, hence 'Greece' and finally muslims won the crusades. From that point onwards we've had the rise of the end times beast, the feet of iron/clay beginning with the colonial era which links to Rev 6's white horse.
Whatever your views of islam, you cannot deny it has been an antagonist to the Beast system and yet it has ruled jerusalem for that 1260 day(lunar yrs) period.
Would all of this just happen without God having a stake in it?
I've also gone in detail on Rev 11 and 12 before in relation to Zechariah 12.
Zech 12 actually tells us that the TRUE REMNANT of Judea wont be cut off and that they would survive 70AD (the destruction of jerusalem). Likewise the Quran was telling us that the TRUE BELIEF prevailed over bani israel eg the a party of them were true believers and remained on truth. it goes without saying that the true remnant became christian (since the apostles themselves were jew by blood and righteous, thus part of that remnant. Broken down further, it means the true remnant were absorbed into a new palestinian identity and hence eventually became muslim (since islam took over)
Rev 12 is directly linking this true jewish remnant with the wilderness 'for 1260 days' (again linking to Rev 11).
there's clear cut legitimacy to islam and it is there in plain writing.
also i forgot to add but the 12 princes promise, that is the 12 Caliphs of Quraysh which culminates in the Imam Mahdi as the final one. Caliphs are true 'princes', by defenition, since a caliph is a vicegerent, a prince, but never a king.
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." (Book #89, Hadith #329)
5)
Finally and most importantly, the actual point of the holy spirit promise in john 16...
why did Jesus say he had many more things to say 'but you cannot bear to here them right now?'
think about it, anything Paul taught, Jesus could have taught too easily and the entire 'proof' Paul comes with as visions of Jesus coming to the disciples and early christians. Is that what Jesus meant 'you cant know the truth yet, because you need to see visions first'?
This is not limited to mere teachings in epistles or mere visions,..it makes for an entire AGE...events taking place on earth that would set the bar on their own terms. Goes back to the parable of tenants. The jews being kicked out of the holy land first and giving way to the tenants eg the gentile era.
John 16
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Isaiah 42
The Servant of the LORD - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will...
www.biblegateway.com
read the new song prophecy again...
See Jesus was representing his passive side back then 'silent' as per Isaiah 42, under that condition he couldnt show the whole truth directly. It would take an entire age of gentiles conquering, establishing a global 'law' system and then Jesus coming back to fulfill it all ie to bring completion. now go and read how isaiah 42 ends.
reading Revelation 2 and 3...the holy spirit clearly suggested his work was not over yet...ive already pointed out that those churches are in cities that all became muslim eventually.
6) btw im aware this post is all over the place. im half alseep but there's just too much connected to these topics so its hard to get my point across without rambling on about other related things.
one thing im absolutely certain about is that what Jesus promised in John 16 was not completed by the christians, as i said it goes on to the parable of tenants, the gentile era, the entire system of law vs faith at work on a larger scale.
'by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned'
just an example of this..
7th century jewish messianicism led to the sassanian-byzantine war, cultiminating in the establishment of a jewish state in jerusalem under sassanian authority.
when those jews visualise their messiah who they strongly believed was coming...was he like Jesus or was he close to their own image eg as someone hanging onto the torah and giving jews rule over the region? think of that image/archetype...that's what i mean by 'microcosm of Jesus' eg a lesser version under the system of law which is an extention of ego as opposed to the higher system of faith. just so you know in islam, the 3 levels are iman (belief), islam(perfect submission) and ihsan(true God consciousness).
eg in the islam system, ego still exists, it's just submitted to God's Will, but it is still by force. think of the old testament era, the prophets/kings.
for ihsan, the ego has to cease to exist even if it's temporarily suspended for the experience.
the jews under the ego system, under flesh, would envigage a messiah figure in their own image...one of the mandem.
however Leviticus 26 contains the 'punishments' promise..and that serves as an unconscious collective guilt complex. meaning even if the jews consciously hate and reject Jesus, their hearts cannot deny him and they know they have no temple, are under the curse. even if they wilfully ignore this, their heart knows. Thus the archetype they envisaged, came into the world, 'you wil plant a seed in vain but will not eat of it's fruit'.
get it? this is a necessary aspect of Jesus's rejection, that the jews would further envisage another messiah, but it would play out in 2 different ways.
before Mohammad's arrival, the jews set up shop in persia. they forged a fake zoroastrian prophetic book called 'the bahman yast', they set up the 'good east vs the evil/demonic west' via that book and it led to the conquest of jerusalem. However due to that collective guilt complex, Mohammad came. they hated him, they knew what he was, he was their own creation, their own interpretation gone wrong.
'by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned' takes a deeper twist.
it's why today, the jews absolutely hate arabs and persians. don't assume they're ignorant, they're consciously bitter and obsessed with reversing the old polarity. it is the 7th century in reverse..
and just look at this prophecy in the hadith
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: iraq would withhold its dirhams and qafiz; syria would withhold its mudd and dinar and egypt would withhold its irdab and dinar and you would recoil to that position from where you started and you would recoil to that position from where you started and you would recoil to that position from where you started, the bones and the flesh of Abu Huraira would bear testimony to it. (Book #041, Hadith #6923)
iraq and syria we've already witnessed, that is the euphrates. egypt is coming, that is the Nile. That is 'greater israel' and that polarity reversal complete, that is the end of the current age of islam, the death of the 2 witnesses and the dajjal/antichrist period.
chapter 18 of the Quran is a messianic themed chapter. the last 10 verses are 'a protection against dajjal' so im particularly fascinated by it's themes. it even highlights the story of Cyrus the great who himself is a messiah (isaiah 45). The whole chapter 18 in the Quran and isaiah 45 are full of dualistic symbolism which plays out by this new 'good west vs EVIL ISLAM' battle, which culminates in the antichrist.
you should read the story of 'the 2 horned one' (the 2 horned ram of Daniel 7 btw, cyrus the great) in chapter 18 which ive linked you..and then read isaiah 45..notice how the polarity is reversed. there's going to be some unconscious level side to this. lastly, i see all religion, scripture as programming and just unconscious level themes playing out that even people dont undetstand. however i def think the jews know what's up, they're intelligent AF and kabballah is heavy on this dualistic topic. Furthermore, considering jews lived in persia for 2500 yrs (only 2500 btw, nothing), persians gave them a holy land. their thank you was to make this shitty 300 movie where they worshipped the greeks instead...their historical persecutors. point being. they're willing to fuck over a historical ally/big brother over a small time obsession with this polarity reversal which they perfectly understand.
it would be easier to just accept Jesus!!!
so how could Jesus express all of this to people back then? it had to play out.
www.biblegateway.com
en.wikipedia.org
