“If God did not create evil then who did? Who has the power of creation in your universe?”

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@Red Sky at Morning
The word for friend is habib. The word used in the verse is wali which means guardian and protector.
The idea was that jews had their own walis. Christians had their own walis. Muslims should keep their own walis.

See, everytime we have an exchange, im always teaching you something..and its likely you already know but are choosing to be deceptive.
The problem is youll still use this argument at another time, knowing it has no merit but to only appear as if you have a leg to stand on in any dialogue with muslims. This is a pissing contest where you have no cock and no piss so you resort to holding a dildo in one hand and a bottle of water in the other.

I give respect to honest people. You arent honest and neither are most so called christians.

Example, Jesus said the Son (the logos, not referring only to his incarnation but his entire being as The Son/Logos) can do nothing in his own. He said the Father is greater than he is. He said The Son doesnt know the last hour, ONLY the Father.

So how do you guys try to reconcile this with the trinitarian doctrine? Answer....you pretend. You know you hold false beliefs but cling to them because its about ego. You are worshipping your self identity a d not devoting yourself to truth

The fact is Rome is the 4th beast of daniel. The final beast is a latter days reemergence of the same beast. Yet it is this system thats produced the trinitarian doctrine. Very suspicious esp how it claims The Son and Holy spirit are co equals with the Father in Godhead.
Seems to me the beast has hijacked christianity.

Oh and you guys are so wrong on taqqiya. This is a pathetic argument xtians have invented to somehow convince people that muslims are just lying, whenever theyre losing a debate "but u doin taqqiyah doe"

Me: u lot are pagans, xtians. Islam says Jesus is NOT God and so does Jesus himself.

How is that taqqiya? Taqqiya would be like this
Me: yes im with you, Jesus is God, islam meant that Jesus is only a slave whilst he was incarnated but otherwise he is defo God.

When has a muslim ever said this? Never.

Btw you believe Jesus was Fully God in the flesh right? Fully God who doesnt know when the last hour is.
Come on man? Who are you trying to kid?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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The son not knowing the timing of his return patterns the wedding traditions of the first century Jews, and is related to the nature of the Rapture. I wouldn’t bother going on these forums and interacting with people who take a dim view of Christianity if I didn’t want to do all I could to perhaps mean that even one less person might face what will follow.

 






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One thing that I think is difficult to reconcile, is the notion that there's no order to God's law or design in one sense there isn't. This really goes across all religions. Not all prayers are answered. Good is not always rewarded. Some people have inexplicably tragic lives. Where to some degree for them it is impossible to believe in God. How can someone really believe God is good when there lives are tragic ? And at the end of it for this dilemma they end up.in hell. I never understood this til recently and Im struggling to fully accept this emotionally.
 






Daze

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The son not knowing the timing of his return patterns the wedding traditions of the first century Jews, and is related to the nature of the Rapture. I wouldn’t bother going on these forums and interacting with people who take a dim view of Christianity if I didn’t want to do all I could to perhaps mean that even one less person might face what will follow.

I don't have a dim view of Christianity Red, just man worship.

What will you do when Jesus denounces all of those who worshiped him on judgement day?

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7-22-23)

Yes, we know, that verse is about something else completely, right? Sad is what it is Red when you will be gathered with those who bow to sticks and stones on the last day.

I know, i know..

ears 2.jpg
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I don't have a dim view of Christianity Red, just man worship.

What will you do when Jesus denounces all of those who worshiped him on judgement day?

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7-22-23)

Yes, we know, that verse is about something else completely, right? Sad is what it is Red when you will be gathered with those who bow to sticks and stones on the last day.

I know, i know..

View attachment 65709
We live in the valley of decision right now. The issue at stake is too important for me to get into silly fights over. I have nothing further to add other than to say I am praying for you guys and hope that between now and the point where choice is no longer possible, those here arrive at the truth. I am not a postmodernist, and reject the idea of multiple contradictory “truths”, and I know that nothing in force of argument or rhetoric alone will make a difference.

May the Lord bless both you and @AspiringSoul
 






Red Sky at Morning

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One thing that I think is difficult to reconcile, is the notion that there's no order to God's law or design in one sense there isn't. This really goes across all religions. Not all prayers are answered. Good is not always rewarded. Some people have inexplicably tragic lives. Where to some degree for them it is impossible to believe in God. How can someone really believe God is good when there lives are tragic ? And at the end of it for this dilemma they end up.in hell. I never understood this til recently and Im struggling to fully accept this emotionally.
I guess that’s why we are told not to judge another man’s servant @seekinheart
 






Daze

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We live in the valley of decision right now. The issue at stake is too important for me to get into silly fights over. I have nothing further to add other than to say I am praying for you guys and hope that between now and the point where choice is no longer possible, those here arrive at the truth. I am not a postmodernist, and reject the idea of multiple contradictory “truths”, and I know that nothing in force of argument or rhetoric alone will make a difference.

May the Lord bless both you and @AspiringSoul
Of course the stakes are important. We are talking about the forever after. There is no decision more important then what decides our final destination. The next abode is permanent.

Are you not bothered by Jesus telling you he can do nothing without God? That God is greater then him? That God calls Jesus his slave? All of these things (and many more) found in your book? How can you worship one who cries to God to save him?

Honesty Red, why are you adverse to praying the way former Christians used to?

(Insert video here showing former Christian prayer is modern Muslim prayer with head on ground)
 






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Of course the stakes are important. We are talking about the forever after. There is no decision more important then what decides our final destination. The next abode is permanent.

Are you not bothered by Jesus telling you he can do nothing without God? That God is greater then him? That God calls Jesus his slave? All of these things (and many more) found in your book? How can you worship one who cries to God to save him?

Honesty Red, why are you adverse to praying the way former Christians used to?

(Insert video here showing former Christian prayer is modern Muslim prayer with head on ground)
You don't seem to understand that these things don't contradict a trinitarian view
 






Lyfe

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Every NT book speaks of and emphasizes the preeminance of Christ. Look into how many times Jesus is mentioned in the apostles writings. John, Peter, Revelation, and all of Pauls epistles.

One is forced to adopt one of two conclusions.

1) Jesus is preeminant and above every name and sits at the right hand of God as the scriptures say.

Or

2) Every book in the NT was written by men who misinterpreted Jesus and thus there is 0 credibility to anything the writers said.

You have to adopt one view or the other.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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What do u mean by this sorry not following?
Perhaps a better writer than me can clarify from me….

The bad psychological material is not a sin but a disease. It does not need to be repented of, but to be cured. And by the way, that is very important. Human beings judge one another by their external actions. God judges them by their moral choices. When a neurotic who has a pathological horror of cats forces himself to pick up a cat for some good reason, it is quite possible that in God's eyes he has shown more courage than a healthy man may have shown in winning the V.C. When a man who has been perverted from his youth and taught that cruelty is the right thing does dome tiny little kindness, or refrains from some cruelty he might have committed, and thereby, perhaps, risks being sneered at by his companions, he may, in God's eyes, be doing more than you and I would do if we gave up life itself for a friend.

It is as well to put this the other way round. Some of us who seem quite nice people may, in fact, have made so little use of a good heredity and good upbringing that we are really worse than those whom we regard as fiends. Can we be quite certain how we should have behaved if we had been saddled with the psychological outfit, and then with the bad upbringing, and then with the power, say, of Himmler? That is why Christians are told not to judge. We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological makeup is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first time, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
 






Daze

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Every NT book speaks of and emphasizes the preeminance of Christ. Look into how many times Jesus is mentioned in the apostles writings. John, Peter, Revelation, and all of Pauls epistles.

One is forced to adopt one of two conclusions.

1) Jesus is preeminant and above every name and sits at the right hand of God as the scriptures say.

Or

2) Every book in the NT was written by men who misinterpreted Jesus and thus there is 0 credibility to anything the writers said.

You have to adopt one view or the other.
Seeing we don't even know the names of the people who wrote these books, the question of credibility is certainly on the table.

Did you ever notice Jesus spoke Aramaic? And the bible was written in Greek? But today we find it in English pretty much everywhere?
Lots of room for deviation there Lyfe, ignoring the fact they continue to change the Bible even today while we watch.

What does.. this verse..
“’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
(Jeremiah 8:8)

..mean to you?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Seeing we don't even know the names of the people who wrote these books, the question of credibility is certainly on the table.

Did you ever notice Jesus spoke Aramaic? And the bible was written in Greek? But today we find it in English pretty much everywhere?
Lots of room for deviation there Lyfe, ignoring the fact they continue to change the Bible even today while we watch.

What does.. this verse..
“’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
(Jeremiah 8:8)

..mean to you?
I was intrigued by your implied interpretation so I looked it up @Daze

Understanding Jeremiah 8:8

Jeremiah, chapter 8 states:

7Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD.
8 How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
Verse 8 is being quoted by an increasing number of Muslims as proof that the Jewish scholars have been corrupting the text of their scriptures.

For all Bible study (as for studying any other book) it is important to look at the context of each passage we want to understand. The above verses are part of Jeremiah's "Temple Address" in Jeremiah 7:1-10:25. [Click on this link and follow the text while reading the below given commentary.]

The first important clue is to note that God through the prophet Jeremiah states in verse 7: "my people do not KNOW the requirements of the LORD". He does NOT say that they do not HAVE them. Then in verse 8 he takes up the the false security of the people who claim that they have the law as if the mere possession of the law will benefit them in any way if they do not obey it and if they distort it with their false interpretations.

Let us look at the next three verses from the passage in question, since Jeremiah himself explains what this "lying pen" is all about.

10Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace.
12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.
What exactly is it that these scribes are doing? If you read the larger context you will see clearly that the scribes, priests and prophets are telling the people that everything is okay, that the Law is being kept, and that there will be peace because "God is with us", His people. But they are lying. It doesn't say their lying pens are making the Torah into a lie by altering its text. It says they are writing things that are false as though they came from God's law and teaching them to the people.

A scribe in that time wasn't so much a copyist as a teacher and expounder. These lying teachers are telling the people "peace, peace" although the true prophet tells them there is no peace and will be no peace. God has announced His judgment on Jerusalem for its idolatery and disobedience. The enemies are coming and God will NOT help. This verse has nothing to do with altering the books, it has to do with teaching false practices and giving false prophecies and saying these are based on the Lord's law. The law of God which clearly speaks of punishement for sin is disregarded and the people are told about the promises of God's goodness -- which are in the Law too, but each has its conditions.

What is the reason for this false security? Verse 10 identifies the the people (including the scribes, priests and "prophets") as greedy for gain. But the people will only gladly pay them for good news or better the lies of "favorable horoscopes" and not for the true messages of judgment and calls to repentance coming from God's eternal word. So, because of greed they trade the truth of God's word for the gains that come from the lies of false promises.

In 7:1-29 Jeremiah announces God's judgment against Jerusalem because of their sin and disobedience. The people in Jerusalem are kept in false security that nobody would be able to touch them because this is the place of God's Temple and surely God would miraculously rescue them as He has done previously (see e.g. Isaiah 37:36). Jeremiah delivers God's word against this false security in 7:4-15.

The "lying pen of the scribes" is guilty not of changing the text of the law, but of false application of it. They are giving the wrong interpreation out of personal greed and because they fear men more than God. In effect, Jeremiah says that they don't "have" the Law because they don't KEEP the Law. It is not the physical presence of the Law or of the Temple that will avert God's wrath, but only obedience to his word. They did not corrupt the physical text of it, but they "handled" it falsely as 8:8 says. If the text they were working with hadn't been the Law anymore, then they could not have been accused of mishandling it ("it" = the Law).

"Having" the Law is no advantage whatsoever if you don't obey it. The endresult is the same as if you don't even have it. This is the consistent message of the Bible in many, many places.

For example you might have a detailed look at a similar address of judgment against the scribes by Jesus in Matthew 23. Let me explicitely quote a few verses here. Jesus starts out his harsh words of condemnation (taking up nearly all of chapter 23) with:

2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus would never have told the people to listen to the teachers of the Law if the very law they were teaching had not been unchanged and as pure as it was given by God. No, textual corruption was not an issue at all. It is always the question of how we react and what we do with the law that we know.

And there is another passage in 2 Timothy 2, using very similar words as those in Jeremiah:

15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
One can "handle" the word of God correctly or falsely, but there is no question that the false interpretations and preaching will affect the EXISTENCE of the word in its true form. False teaching will earn the displeasure of God, but there are others who also have the word and will speak up. Like Jeremiah in his time is sent to speak because the scribes teach lies and say that they are the true word of God. And like the true disciples in the early church against the heretics.

The same holds for the Qur'an which admonishes us to obey the earlier revelations. How can it tell Jews and Christians to believe and obey them if they were not even available anymore because they are seriously corrupted? Repeatedly the Qur'an states that they are "with them" [literally "between their hands" as in 3:49-50, 61:6 and 5:49 for the time of Jesus]. See the detailed discussion of this issue in Section Two of Dr. Campbell's book.

Arguing from the passage in Jeremiah 8 that the Torah is corrupted in its text would be going against the testimony of Jesus, against the testimony of the whole of God's prophets, and is an argument from silence, since it does not say so at all. The context makes it fully clear that this speaks about false interpretation and application of the word of God.

But there is still one more piece of evidence from the book of Jeremiah. Indeed this same incident of his temple address is reported again in Jeremiah 26, where we read:

4 Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow my law, which I have set before you,
5 and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened)
6 then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.'
Obviously, God admonishes the people to obey his law which he has set before them. This would not be possible and indeed were a ridiculous command if the law were not with them so that they can indeed read and know and obey it. Both, the law of God [the Torah given through Moses], and the words brought by the many other prophets of God, like Isaiah some generations earlier and Jeremiah himself at this time.

This is confirmation from the book of Jeremiah itself, even from the very same incident of the temple address, that the evidence above has been read correctly. The earlier passage in Jeremiah 8 is in most Bibles set in verse form which shows that the Hebrew is written in poetry. The summary statement about the temple address in chapter 26 is written in prose. We all know that in poetry there is often a greater license employed of words which are not meant literal but which are used to achieve a dramatic effect. And for the effect on the life of the people these false teachings are the same as not having the law at all. That why it is so serious. But that doesn't mean it has actually disappeared "physically". Chapter 26 makes it clear that it is still available and if the people will heed Jeremiah's preaching they indeed CAN go back and read it and obey it.

Further evidence: In Nehemia, chapter 8 we find that Ezra reads the Law to the people of Israel for a whole week, day after day. For example in verses 8, 13-14, and 18 it states:

They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read...
... On the second day ... they gathered around Ezra the scribe to give attention to the words of the Law.
They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that ...
Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God. ...
This is in about 430 B.C. about 180 years after Jeremiah's temple address which took place in 609 or 608 B.C., the first year of the reign of king Jehoiakim (see Jeremiah 26:1).

Furthermore, at about the same time the prophet Malachi lives and preaches. In Malachi 4:4 we also read that God admonishes his people:

Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
All this clearly testifies to the existence of the Law of God given through Moses at this time.

Jochen Katz

Source
 






Lyfe

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Seeing we don't even know the names of the people who wrote these books, the question of credibility is certainly on the table.

Did you ever notice Jesus spoke Aramaic? And the bible was written in Greek? But today we find it in English pretty much everywhere?
Lots of room for deviation there Lyfe, ignoring the fact they continue to change the Bible even today while we watch.

What does.. this verse..
“’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
(Jeremiah 8:8)

..mean to you?
Seeing we don't even know the names of the people who wrote these books, the question of credibility is certainly on the table.

Did you ever notice Jesus spoke Aramaic? And the bible was written in Greek? But today we find it in English pretty much everywhere?
Lots of room for deviation there Lyfe, ignoring the fact they continue to change the Bible even today while we watch.

What does.. this verse..
“’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
(Jeremiah 8:8)

..mean to you?
The Bible says the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God. You believe human wisdom and knowledge can either validate or invalidate the scriptures. Jesus said that unless you humble yourself as a little child you can in no wise enter the kingdom of God. God CHOSE the foolish things of this world to bring to nought the things that are. What makes you believe your intellect or wisdom will give you a better glimpse into the things of God when God has PERSONALLY chosen things that the world would deem as foolish as a means to reveal his truths? Your stumblingblock is that you rely on human reasoning and intellect to be your compass on a matter that God has said can only be spiritually discerned. No matter what the world says or scholars say Jesus is lord. He spoiled and defeated principalties and powers. The demons tremble and know he is lord, that he sits on the right hand of God in power and glory.

I pray that God would give you a supernatural revelation of his love and that Jesus would reveal himself to you as lord by the power of the holy ghost.
 






Joined
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Messages
2,094
Perhaps a better writer than me can clarify from me….

The bad psychological material is not a sin but a disease. It does not need to be repented of, but to be cured. And by the way, that is very important. Human beings judge one another by their external actions. God judges them by their moral choices. When a neurotic who has a pathological horror of cats forces himself to pick up a cat for some good reason, it is quite possible that in God's eyes he has shown more courage than a healthy man may have shown in winning the V.C. When a man who has been perverted from his youth and taught that cruelty is the right thing does dome tiny little kindness, or refrains from some cruelty he might have committed, and thereby, perhaps, risks being sneered at by his companions, he may, in God's eyes, be doing more than you and I would do if we gave up life itself for a friend.

It is as well to put this the other way round. Some of us who seem quite nice people may, in fact, have made so little use of a good heredity and good upbringing that we are really worse than those whom we regard as fiends. Can we be quite certain how we should have behaved if we had been saddled with the psychological outfit, and then with the bad upbringing, and then with the power, say, of Himmler? That is why Christians are told not to judge. We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological makeup is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first time, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
logically I understand emotionally difficult
 






Daze

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Messages
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@Lyfe, crazy what mental gymnastics you need to perpetuate your faith. No Lyfe, i believe the scripture we have today is not the same as it was 2000 years ago. There is abundant proof, but people hear what they want to hear. I can link articles showing the bible being edited even today, in our own time, but we've been there and done that.

@Red, so you need like 3 pages to explain "our scribes wrote lies into our book"? Impressive. Sorry but my goldfish attention span wants to pass on that one. Guessing you take a shot or two at Islam in there, as is your repertoire.


No wonder you both struggle with "I create the light AND the dark".. i mean its plain English man.. but whatever.

Why don't yo both watch this video. The production value is high and it is entertaining at the same time.

 






Bubbajay

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Messages
703
The Bible says the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit of God. You believe human wisdom and knowledge can either validate or invalidate the scriptures. Jesus said that unless you humble yourself as a little child you can in no wise enter the kingdom of God. God CHOSE the foolish things of this world to bring to nought the things that are. What makes you believe your intellect or wisdom will give you a better glimpse into the things of God when God has PERSONALLY chosen things that the world would deem as foolish as a means to reveal his truths? Your stumblingblock is that you rely on human reasoning and intellect to be your compass on a matter that God has said can only be spiritually discerned. No matter what the world says or scholars say Jesus is lord. He spoiled and defeated principalties and powers. The demons tremble and know he is lord, that he sits on the right hand of God in power and glory.

I pray that God would give you a supernatural revelation of his love and that Jesus would reveal himself to you as lord by the power of the holy ghost.
these people claim to be ex Christians who rejected the gospel. Its impossible for someone to get saved after they fully understand the gospel and reject it. Doing so would be like to crucify the Lord afresh. These people are rejected (reprobate) and nigh unto cursing. They're twice dead plucked up from the roots. They're the swine you're trying to give the pearl to.

hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
 






Lyfe

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these people claim to be ex Christians who rejected the gospel. Its impossible for someone to get saved after they fully understand the gospel and reject it. Doing so would be like to crucify the Lord afresh. These people are rejected (reprobate) and nigh unto cursing. They're twice dead plucked up from the roots. They're the swine you're trying to give the pearl to.

hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Well, im not entirely convinced they ever really heard or understood the true gospel. It is possible for someone to grow up in the church and claim to be a Christian despite never truly being converted. Its possible they never heard or understood the true gospel. They may claim to have formerly been a Christian, but they may just be deceiving themselves. I am hesitant to call anyone a reprobate, because God has saved some pretty dark and seemingly hopeless individuals. Think of how many people claim to be a Christian in their early years and drift off into the new age or some form of spirituality, then they hear the actual gospel and end up geting saved. I would never call anyone a reprobate personally, because it can do allot of damage to people if they arent one.
 






Bubbajay

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Well, im not entirely convinced they ever really heard or understood the true gospel. It is possible for someone to grow up in the church and claim to be a Christian despite never truly being converted. Its possible they never heard or understood the true gospel. They may claim to have formerly been a Christian, but they may just be deceiving themselves. I am hesitant to call anyone a reprobate, because God has saved some pretty dark and seemingly hopeless individuals. Think of how many people claim to be a Christian in their early years and drift off into the new age or some form of spirituality, then they hear the actual gospel and end up geting saved. I would never call anyone a reprobate personally, because it can do allot of damage to people if they arent one.
I agree, but there's a huge difference between the "new ager" you speak of and those who campaign on the internet against Jesus Christ and his gospel. They went from being an "ex christian" to a literal enemy of the gospel. That's very rare. They know that Christianity teaches a Trinity, they've been shown countless times where Jesus does indeed claim to be God in the flesh, and they've been shown through scripture that salvation is by grace through faith, because they drag the whole idea through the mud. In fact they drag the whole gospel through the mud. Anyone with a conscience wouldn't do that.their hearts have been hardened like Pharoah. They're incapable of believing like the Pharisees.
 






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