No regard...for the desire of women

Haich

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Ok...well, many muslim women are covered head to toe in burkas...so, you can say that islam isn’t about that, but it is.
If the Iranian government has deemed it compulsory for a woman to wear a burqa, that's a political law. Islam doesn't instruct women to wear a face veil or a burqa, it instructs them to cover and wear modest clothing.

You don't get to say what's Islamic, you know nothing about it and have demonstrated this many times.
 

Haich

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I hope you know there are Christian communities which practice FGM, so how is it then an Islamic issue? This is the second time I've asked you Lisa and as usual, you don't have a shred of evidence to stand on.

Always commenting on things she knows nothing about. How can you form such an absolute position on something you have no idea about?

Astounding.
 

Lisa

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Sorry, 65.

Ok so what? There are plenty of people who don't like many forms of dress, doesn't stop others from wearing it. The burqa is a chose as is the niqab. These women don't need your liberation are many are perfectly happy with their attire.

How does it erase women? Please explain, how as a white old lady in the states, you have any understanding or comprehension of the social and cultural climate these women are in and why they wear these garments?

They're not, you're speaking on behalf of people whom you don't know. Have you spoken to those women in the photos? So who are you kidding when you post this nonsense? Please tell me, other than your anecdotal Iranian-neighbour story, where are these oppressed women you speak of?
What is it with my age that has people so annoyed anyway...no, I’m not 65 either..but even if I were, I’m still entitled to my own opinion...:rolleyes:

I’m no ones freedom fighter, but that mode of dress is an affront to me and should be an affront to all woman. But, I conced that some may like to dress that way, however, I think if the women wearing those things were able to give their honest opinions about it, they wouldn’t be wearing them. That isn’t modest dress its an extreme form of control....

True story about my neighbor...

What really chaps my hide about it is that God tells us that we are fearfully and wonderfully, hiding women goes against that.
 

Lisa

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I hope you know there are Christian communities which practice FGM, so how is it then an Islamic issue? This is the second time I've asked you Lisa and as usual, you don't have a shred of evidence to stand on.

Always commenting on things she knows nothing about. How can you form such an absolute position on something you have no idea about?

Astounding.
I read the book from Ayann Hirsi and she was from a muslim family which totally did that to her. And she lived in a muslim community where they did that to other little girls.
 

Lisa

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If the Iranian government has deemed it compulsory for a woman to wear a burqa, that's a political law. Islam doesn't instruct women to wear a face veil or a burqa, it instructs them to cover and wear modest clothing.

You don't get to say what's Islamic, you know nothing about it and have demonstrated this many times.
What I do know is this....muslim women wear the burka, no one else on earth wears that garment if they aren’t muslim. Which is why I say, given the chance the women wouldn’t wear such things...
 
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It’s not that there is anything wrong with being covered. It is that being covered is forced and being forced to cover is required in places that do apply Islam as law.

Many places don’t apply Islam as law entirely because they are only places that have been invaded by Islam and still able to retain some practices and people who did not accept Islam. However, in places like Iran, the Islamic revolution allowed an Islamic State to establish a dress code for women requiring them to cover and is therefore an example of no regard for women or oppression.

Obviously, there is nothing wrong with modesty. I like to dress modestly, but many people believe the Quran supports women being covered in something that does show a women’s shape at all and this becomes required in places where Islam has gained control over the government of the area.

My perspective as a Christian woman is:

1. Freedom of Religion. I may not agree with what I do know about Islam, but I know that I DON’T know enough about the religion to criticize the practices of their faith that do not infringe on my faith. Therefore, unless we are forced to adopt Islam as a religion against our will
I see no reason to condemn Muslims as enemies.
I don’t hate Muslims; on the contrary, I genuinely love them & want them to be saved. I think we should give them the Gospel in Love, rather than ostracize them based on propaganda fed to us by our lying, green screen media that propagates lies to the public to further their own genocidal agendas.

2. Try to understand their point of view. Christians know that our religion is largely misunderstood, misrepresented & mocked by people who think they know what we believe, but based on the false assumptions they present, it becomes apparent that they DON’T know what we believe because they haven’t studied the Holy Bible.
Therefore, it seems more likely that they attack our faith because they don’t understand it, or because they don’t like Christians in general.
Have you considered that this may also be the case with Muslims?
After all, Muslims are people, too. They work, play, have families & lives just like everyone else. Just because they dress differently, that doesn’t make them wrong.
Not everyone lives or dresses like Westerners, and how arrogant can one be to think they SHOULD?

Also, the Bible says that our garments should cover our thighs, yet many western women (even Christians) do not comply with
this.
The Bible also says women should keep their hair long & men must keep their hair short, but many believers don’t comply.
Also, the Bible says that wives are to respect, “submit to” & “obey” their husbands, but how many western women claim that doing so is “oppression”?

Perhaps we ought to get our own behavior in order & our own lives in subjection to God before accusing others of wrongdoing, when they are actually living more in obedience to our Scriptures than we are.
 

rainerann

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I think the primary connection this verse about no regard for women has is with the curse given to Eve.

"To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
your husband,
but he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16).

In my opinion, the curses given to Adam and Eve are some of the strongest evidence in support of the Bible. We can debate where this curse has been applied in greater severity to we are blue in the face. The fact remains that there are common features that women share the world in different cultures and different religions that reflect the reality of a curse that causes pain in childbirth and a subservient state of women that puts them at risk for abuse. So that we are unable to point fingers.

However, we can't neutralize the phenomenon by saying it happened here or there as well. This isn't the way to find justice or relieve the experience of this curse that all injustice towards women boils down to and would be something that the Antichrist would want women to experience. He wants women to suffer. He has no power to make them suffer on his own and is only able to use the judgment God gave to his advantage.

Therefore, even when we recognize this lack of respect towards women, there isn't a whole lot we have been able to do about it because it is a spiritual consequence. Without Christ, it cannot be overcome. So if people turn away as the prophecy says there will be a falling away in the time of the end, then it is not surprising to consider that the curse given to Eve will be evident again.

There is a verse in Isaiah this reminds me of.

“11I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible...

17Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:11;17).

So this is a description of the day of the Lord. Therefore, I have always considered how this verse reflects His judgment. How this demonstrates that He considers a people cursed who live in these conditions. They are a people who have turned away from God and as a consequence, the women and children suffer violence.

I have always wondered whether anyone would be able to see this and whether there is anyone who repents because of it. I wonder if there is anyone who says that they want to repent because of how obedience to the Lord will protect the people around them from a judgment like this.

This verse suggests a sort of selfishness present in the world that the person described in Daniel 11 would support and clearly no regard for the desire of women.
 

rainerann

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My perspective as a Christian woman is:

1. Freedom of Religion. I may not agree with what I do know about Islam, but I know that I DON’T know enough about the religion to criticize the practices of their faith that do not infringe on my faith. Therefore, unless we are forced to adopt Islam as a religion against our will
I see no reason to condemn Muslims as enemies.
I don’t hate Muslims; on the contrary, I genuinely love them & want them to be saved. I think we should give them the Gospel in Love, rather than ostracize them based on propaganda fed to us by our lying, green screen media that propagates lies to the public to further their own genocidal agendas.

2. Try to understand their point of view. Christians know that our religion is largely misunderstood, misrepresented & mocked by people who think they know what we believe, but based on the false assumptions they present, it becomes apparent that they DON’T know what we believe because they haven’t studied the Holy Bible.
Therefore, it seems more likely that they attack our faith because they don’t understand it, or because they don’t like Christians in general.
Have you considered that this may also be the case with Muslims?
After all, Muslims are people, too. They work, play, have families & lives just like everyone else. Just because they dress differently, that doesn’t make them wrong.
Not everyone lives or dresses like Westerners, and how arrogant can one be to think they SHOULD?

Also, the Bible says that our garments should cover our thighs, yet many western women (even Christians) do not comply with
this.
The Bible also says women should keep their hair long & men must keep their hair short, but many believers don’t comply.
Also, the Bible says that wives are to respect, “submit to” & “obey” their husbands, but how many western women claim that doing so is “oppression”?

Perhaps we ought to get our own behavior in order & our own lives in subjection to God before accusing others of wrongdoing, when they are actually living more in obedience to our Scriptures than we are.
Welcome to the forum Claire. May it be as truly illuminating of what the doctrine of Islam teaches as it was for me. :)
 

Lisa

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Mar 13, 2017
Messages
20,288
I think the primary connection this verse about no regard for women has is with the curse given to Eve.

"To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
your husband,
but he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16).

In my opinion, the curses given to Adam and Eve are some of the strongest evidence in support of the Bible. We can debate where this curse has been applied in greater severity to we are blue in the face. The fact remains that there are common features that women share the world in different cultures and different religions that reflect the reality of a curse that causes pain in childbirth and a subservient state of women that puts them at risk for abuse. So that we are unable to point fingers.

However, we can't neutralize the phenomenon by saying it happened here or there as well. This isn't the way to find justice or relieve the experience of this curse that all injustice towards women boils down to and would be something that the Antichrist would want women to experience. He wants women to suffer. He has no power to make them suffer on his own and is only able to use the judgment God gave to his advantage.

Therefore, even when we recognize this lack of respect towards women, there isn't a whole lot we have been able to do about it because it is a spiritual consequence. Without Christ, it cannot be overcome. So if people turn away as the prophecy says there will be a falling away in the time of the end, then it is not surprising to consider that the curse given to Eve will be evident again.

There is a verse in Isaiah this reminds me of.

“11I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible...

17Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:11;17).

So this is a description of the day of the Lord. Therefore, I have always considered how this verse reflects His judgment. How this demonstrates that He considers a people cursed who live in these conditions. They are a people who have turned away from God and as a consequence, the women and children suffer violence.

I have always wondered whether anyone would be able to see this and whether there is anyone who repents because of it. I wonder if there is anyone who says that they want to repent because of how obedience to the Lord will protect the people around them from a judgment like this.

This verse suggests a sort of selfishness present in the world that the person described in Daniel 11 would support and clearly no regard for the desire of women.
Seems like they will...

Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself.
 

Serveto

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Messages
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I don’t hate Muslims; on the contrary, I genuinely love them & want them to be saved. I think we should give them the Gospel in Love, rather than ostracize them based on propaganda fed to us by our lying, green screen media that propagates lies to the public to further their own genocidal agendas.
Now there's a revolutionary idea and approach :D.
 
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Lisa

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Messages
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Vixy is actually Tanya but ok, keep being fooled, she was outed on another thread.
I was directed to the thread in question and looks like Kung Fu started a rumor about Vixy being Tanya and you agreed with him, but no one else backed that up. So, I will still keep following what Vixy says. Especially since I took the time to convert what the Swedish account of what happened in the newest killing to english and it matches what she said....
 
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Messages
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I think the primary connection this verse about no regard for women has is with the curse given to Eve.

"To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
your husband,
but he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16).

In my opinion, the curses given to Adam and Eve are some of the strongest evidence in support of the Bible. We can debate where this curse has been applied in greater severity to we are blue in the face. The fact remains that there are common features that women share the world in different cultures and different religions that reflect the reality of a curse that causes pain in childbirth and a subservient state of women that puts them at risk for abuse. So that we are unable to point fingers.

However, we can't neutralize the phenomenon by saying it happened here or there as well. This isn't the way to find justice or relieve the experience of this curse that all injustice towards women boils down to and would be something that the Antichrist would want women to experience. He wants women to suffer. He has no power to make them suffer on his own and is only able to use the judgment God gave to his advantage.

Therefore, even when we recognize this lack of respect towards women, there isn't a whole lot we have been able to do about it because it is a spiritual consequence. Without Christ, it cannot be overcome. So if people turn away as the prophecy says there will be a falling away in the time of the end, then it is not surprising to consider that the curse given to Eve will be evident again.

There is a verse in Isaiah this reminds me of.

“11I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible...

17Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:11;17).

So this is a description of the day of the Lord. Therefore, I have always considered how this verse reflects His judgment. How this demonstrates that He considers a people cursed who live in these conditions. They are a people who have turned away from God and as a consequence, the women and children suffer violence.

I have always wondered whether anyone would be able to see this and whether there is anyone who repents because of it. I wonder if there is anyone who says that they want to repent because of how obedience to the Lord will protect the people around them from a judgment like this.

This verse suggests a sort of selfishness present in the world that the person described in Daniel 11 would support and clearly no regard for the desire of women.
I think the primary connection this verse about no regard for women has is with the curse given to Eve.

"To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
your husband,
but he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16).

In my opinion, the curses given to Adam and Eve are some of the strongest evidence in support of the Bible. We can debate where this curse has been applied in greater severity to we are blue in the face. The fact remains that there are common features that women share the world in different cultures and different religions that reflect the reality of a curse that causes pain in childbirth and a subservient state of women that puts them at risk for abuse. So that we are unable to point fingers.

However, we can't neutralize the phenomenon by saying it happened here or there as well. This isn't the way to find justice or relieve the experience of this curse that all injustice towards women boils down to and would be something that the Antichrist would want women to experience. He wants women to suffer. He has no power to make them suffer on his own and is only able to use the judgment God gave to his advantage.

Therefore, even when we recognize this lack of respect towards women, there isn't a whole lot we have been able to do about it because it is a spiritual consequence. Without Christ, it cannot be overcome. So if people turn away as the prophecy says there will be a falling away in the time of the end, then it is not surprising to consider that the curse given to Eve will be evident again.

There is a verse in Isaiah this reminds me of.

“11I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible...

17Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:11;17).

So this is a description of the day of the Lord. Therefore, I have always considered how this verse reflects His judgment. How this demonstrates that He considers a people cursed who live in these conditions. They are a people who have turned away from God and as a consequence, the women and children suffer violence.

I have always wondered whether anyone would be able to see this and whether there is anyone who repents because of it. I wonder if there is anyone who says that they want to repent because of how obedience to the Lord will protect the people around them from a judgment like this.

This verse suggests a sort of selfishness present in the world that the person described in Daniel 11 would support and clearly no regard for the desire of women.
I think the verse in Daniel 11 is definitely referring to the coming Antichrist being a Homosexual.
Homosexuality is like spitting in God’s face. It’s the defilement of God’s design for the sexual union between husband & wife.

Remember, He literally took Fire & brimstone from Hell & pounded Sodom & Gomorrah with it, as an example of His disgust with such abominable behavior.
 

rainerann

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Messages
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I think the verse in Daniel 11 is definitely referring to the coming Antichrist being a Homosexual.
Homosexuality is like spitting in God’s face. It’s the defilement of God’s design for the sexual union between husband & wife.

Remember, He literally took Fire & brimstone from Hell & pounded Sodom & Gomorrah with it, as an example of His disgust with such abominable behavior.
hmm, I understand what you are suggesting. However, I think our understanding of homosexuality is limited in the same way you suggest that we are in some ways unfamiliar with the subject of Islam. When I first came to the forum, I was under a very similar impression towards Islam myself that you have expressed, and it was my desire to have conversations that included some greater depth that caused me to study and form the opinion that I have now.

Homosexuality is the same experience. I have also encountered several people here who claim homosexual orientation that have a profound understanding of scripture, so I don't believe that homosexuality is like spitting in God's face. I think we don't have a complete understand of what the Bible is referring to from a historical perspective because the western world is the only real place that we consider homosexuality as a sort of orientation.

I was reading an article on the subject of homosexuality in Saudi Arabia the other day that brought some greater clarity to this subject as well. In Saudi Arabia, homosexual acts are common because there is such a severe view towards men and women working together. The article says that it is very easy to act on sexual impulses with other men because of this, which doesn't present homosexuality as a sort of orientation that we often hear condemned by the church today. It is more like adultery in this context or a form of abuse as opposed to what we see today.

It is a very similar to what happens in the Catholic church where the vow of celibacy becomes a demand that cannot be accomplished and so p***philia is the result. As a result of this, I do think there is something missing to our understanding of homosexuality as described from the Bible. I have found some gay people to have great spiritual understanding and this is not possible if they are spitting in God's face with their behavior.

The Bible says that forbidding marriage is also a perversion, and both of these examples demonstrate the damage that is created by this (1 Timothy 4:1-3). So I think it is much more likely that the way women are treated according to Islam is a much more accurate presentation of what having no regard for the desire of women means like the opening post suggests. This is simply because this is a community application of this principle that the Catholic church practices as well. Although, the Catholic church requires a vow that separates them from society and Islam does not. Therefore, you can't see the broader application within the Catholic church the way you can see within Islam.

This was a very interesting article that presents some information on the history of homosexuality. I look forward to hearing what conclusions you form from it. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/
 
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hmm, I understand what you are suggesting. However, I think our understanding of homosexuality is limited in the same way you suggest that we are in some ways unfamiliar with the subject of Islam. When I first came to the forum, I was under a very similar impression towards Islam myself that you have expressed, and it was my desire to have conversations that included some greater depth that caused me to study and form the opinion that I have now.

Homosexuality is the same experience. I have also encountered several people here who claim homosexual orientation that have a profound understanding of scripture, so I don't believe that homosexuality is like spitting in God's face. I think we don't have a complete understand of what the Bible is referring to from a historical perspective because the western world is the only real place that we consider homosexuality as a sort of orientation.

I was reading an article on the subject of homosexuality in Saudi Arabia the other day that brought some greater clarity to this subject as well. In Saudi Arabia, homosexual acts are common because there is such a severe view towards men and women working together. The article says that it is very easy to act on sexual impulses with other men because of this, which doesn't present homosexuality as a sort of orientation that we often hear condemned by the church today. It is more like adultery in this context or a form of abuse as opposed to what we see today.

It is a very similar to what happens in the Catholic church where the vow of celibacy becomes a demand that cannot be accomplished and so p***philia is the result. As a result of this, I do think there is something missing to our understanding of homosexuality as described from the Bible. I have found some gay people to have great spiritual understanding and this is not possible if they are spitting in God's face with their behavior.

The Bible says that forbidding marriage is also a perversion, and both of these examples demonstrate the damage that is created by this (1 Timothy 4:1-3). So I think it is much more likely that the way women are treated according to Islam is a much more accurate presentation of what having no regard for the desire of women means like the opening post suggests. This is simply because this is a community application of this principle that the Catholic church practices as well. Although, the Catholic church requires a vow that separates them from society and Islam does not. Therefore, you can't see the broader application within the Catholic church the way you can see within Islam.

This was a very interesting article that presents some information on the history of homosexuality. I look forward to hearing what conclusions you form from it. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/
Homosexuality is a behavior, and a perverse one at that.
The pseudo-Christian churches these days have allowed it to creep into their church & the weak pastors are too afraid of losing members or tithes & do not want to offend people (with the truth), so they won't even preach against it from the pulpits.
Shame on them.
They are supposed to be instant in season & out of season (preaching the truth at all times, when it is popular or not)
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” ....2 Timothy 4:2

I read through the article you linked & I am not sure how much of it is true but it seems to be heavily anti-Arab, which raises suspicion that it is propaganda, especially since they are still riding the narrative that Arabs did 9/11.

I've never been to Saudi Arabia so I can neither support nor deny the accuracy of the article. I found the author's choice of words to be quite odd when she stated they executed a man for having sex with a boy instead of saying they executed a p***phile or child rapist instead. Either way, hopefully the execution part was true. Too bad we don't have execution for that here. There would be a lot less children getting defiled & violated if we did.

At any rate, I try not to let my worldview become shaped by everything I read or watch online.

The only solid truth is found in God's Word.
 

rainerann

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It is likely that he is prosecuted for homosexuality because this is punishable under sharia and p***philia isn’t. While I agree that the Bible is true, I find your perspective towards homosexuals in contrast to people that adhere to Islam containing bias. This would follow a mainstream narrative while seeming to believe you don’t follow mainstream narratives.

I just dont see any reason to be so harsh towards homosexuality while holding an opinion of restraint towards Islam. You do know that they believe and teach that the Bible predicts the prophets Muhammad’s ministry. They say Muhammad is the helper Jesus says will come after him. They teach that Muhammad fills the role that we believe the Holy Spirit fills. You do understand the spiritual consequences of this belief according to the Bible right?

If you don’t, then I would suggest paying a little more attention to the subject of Islam and a little less attention to the people who feel that homosexuality is something they can’t change about themselves. Gay people aren’t trying to remove freedom of religion. A system like Islam would.

It would be good if you are concerned about being misled about Islam by the media to read the Quran yourself. Then, there won’t be so many comments made that contain what ifs that don’t presently have answers and your response would sound less biased. It is understandable to not want to be presumptuous. However, it is beneficial to form opinions rather remain a spectator of different opinions, while simultaneously being willing to condemn people from the same perspective of a spectator. That just doesn’t make any sense to me.
 

Haich

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I read the book from Ayann Hirsi and she was from a muslim family which totally did that to her. And she lived in a muslim community where they did that to other little girls.
Ayan is a proven liar. I know of her family who are great people, very humble and educated. She lied to gain asylum and lied about being forced to marry her cousin. She has absolutely nothing credible to her name and she's gained a following through her deceitful story. Her father spoke at a Somali conference last year, he was absolutely appalled by her behaviour. She has no contact with her family at all...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1518532/Critic-of-Islam-to-quit-Holland-after-lies-are-exposed.html

So, she's an atheist and your a Christian. Exactly where does the interest in her stem from? She completely blasts people of faith, including you, so why would you read her book?
 

Haich

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I was directed to the thread in question and looks like Kung Fu started a rumor about Vixy being Tanya and you agreed with him, but no one else backed that up. So, I will still keep following what Vixy says. Especially since I took the time to convert what the Swedish account of what happened in the newest killing to english and it matches what she said....
Yh keep believing she's a genuine person, honestly you love anything which supports your narrative of Islam.

In the same thread Scepta Cool Air, posted various articles showing the truth about what's happening in Sweden so have a read.
 
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