Did Jesus Christ give christians license to sin ?

[Daciple]

I see those two versus and think that the famine represented there being no presence of God not equating it to a born again Christian being miserable in sin. I'm not saying that sinning won't make one miserable but that it isn't exclusive to the saved as if Jesus tickles the uvula whenever someone sins. Everyone is going to sin whether saved or not and it grieves everyone but no one just stops because they are saved.

I believe that this Parable can be preached concerning the Lost and the Saved, in fact it was just preached from this Sunday night concerning both one that is Lost and one that is Saved. I suppose that I see it more for me because one Im saved and two I recently experience this in my life.

Where you see the famine in the land as not having the presence of the Holy Spirit thus being someone who is Lost (again I can understand this and it definitely CAN be preached in this manner however it doesnt exclude it from what I am saying, as the Word of God is amazing in being able to speak to both Lost and Saved in the same verse) I see it as the Holy Spirit being far from a person, and thus the protection and blessings of God being in famine in the Saved persons life. That is what happened to me, I was in a famine of the Power of the Holy Spirit in my life, I was in a famine for the Blessings of God and the Fruits of the Spirit in my Life. I was saved, God was still working on me but it was from chastisement and not in the blessing of a close walk. Therefore I was in want and famine, and I was turning to the World aka the join himself to a citizen of the country ( v15) to try and fulfill the needs I had aka eat the husks of swines (v16).

Also you say that the Lost experience guilt, but do they experience it for and in the same manner a Saved person would or does? I definitely dont think so, not even in the least.

So the thing I was participating in at that time, they are upheld is GOOD in Society with the Lost continually partaking in them and NOT feeling any real guilt. Cussing, how often are the Lost cussing and never once feel anything at all about it? Drinking, how often are the Lost priding themselves on drinking and not at all feeling any type of guilt for it? Smoking weed, how often are the Lost getting high and not once feeling any type of conviction to stop? Watching Porn or Fornicating ( I wasnt fornicating) how many Lost people have sex outside of marriage or watch Porn and think absolutely nothing of it? Some even saying its Good and Healthly to participate in all of these activities?

I can tell you before I was Saved I could participate in ALL of these things and NEVER felt any guilt about them, not one little bit of guilt, no desire to repent! Since I have been saved, when or if I would have participated in these things conviction came or does come. I have struggled with some of these Sins, I even tried to justify some of them, but nothing I did was stopping the overwhelming conviction I felt when participating in them.

The biggest example would be smoking weed, I was a complete and total pot head before I got saved and never once did I feel any type of conviction when I would smoke, not even in the slightest. However after I have been saved, I definitely would be convicted. I even have tried to convince myself that smoking was fine and dandy, inventing all sorts of reasons and I kept smoking on and off for years, however I could ALWAYS feel conviction set in when I got high.

When my mom died and I walked away fully, I was smoking all the time (that whole giving myself to the citizen and eating the husks) and I was in my mind still trying to justify why it was ok that I was smoking, however EVERY time I would smoke I could feel the Holy Spirit convicting me, like seriously it, it was miserable I couldnt stand it, I could just hear God speaking to my heart, why are you doing this, it is literally making you miserable REPENT. And there I was high off my butt thinking man I need to repent and as soon as I would come down, my Flesh, the Devil and the World all came at me and said get high again, itll help you deal with the problems you are dealing with or at least numb them and make you happy for a moment and boom Id get high again.

It was an awful cycle, I was so incredibly miserable, and it wasnt until I fell to my knees and cried out for the Lord to help me Repent from a broken and contrite heart that anything changed. But once I cried out immediately everything did change and within a week I had stopped all of the things I was doing out in the World trying to fill the hole left from the death of my mother, I was in a Church and the Blessings of God started to pour in!!!

So while I understand your point, I definitely see that Parable as relating to the Saved and I can testify to the difference between Holy Spirit conviction and supposed Worldly guilt...

 

[Lisa]

Lisa,

I had a long and similar conversation with Scott months ago. In the end, though, Arminianism (which stresses the present tense "abiding") and Calvinism (which focusses on past and future) both miss the balance that there are past, present and future elements to our salvation. Only when you take all three together does it make clear sense. I can be holy today because Jesus died for me and because there was a point that I believed on Him. I can fight sin today because my destination is eternity in His presence and that my standing before the Father is based on the shed blood of my Lord, not on my own works, "lest I boast".

This is why taking one verse from one place and giving weight only to the present tense scriptures takes you to Arminianism - it's not that perseverance and day to day holiness don't have a vital part to play, but they sit in the context of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world,

Revelation 13

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

and the fact that right now, in the Spirit, we are seated in heavenly places with Christ.

Ephesians 2

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in hiskindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Um...ok, but what about 2 Timothy 4:1? Are you saying it doesn’t mean what it says it means then?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

From 2 Timothy 2

1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of thislife; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

You could very easily waste a good Saturday morning wrestling over whether verse 12 or verse 13 takes precedence, and over just what the Lord will deny us (rewards or salvation) if we deny Him.

Since I neither intend to commit willful sin or deny my Lord today, I will be decorating the lounge (whilst pondering on the balance) and hope you have a good day!!!

 

[Lisa]

From 2 Timothy 2

1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of thislife; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

You could very easily waste a good Saturday morning wrestling over whether verse 12 or verse 13 takes precedence, and over just what the Lord will deny us (rewards or salvation) if we deny Him.

Since I neither intend to commit willful sin or deny my Lord today, I will be decorating the lounge (whilst pondering on the balance) and hope you have a good day!!!

I wonder why you won’t look at the verse head on....especially since the Spirit explicitly says....explicitly....no ifs ands and buts...that in the last times some WILL fall away from the faith!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I wonder why you won’t look at the verse head on....especially since the Spirit explicitly says....explicitly....no ifs ands and buts...that in the last times some WILL fall away from the faith!

I think we both agree that this verse states that in the last times thee will be great apostasy and many will fall away from the faith. What happens to them as a consequence of this is related to the question - what happened to Annanias and Sapphira? Will we see them again?

Nobody is suggesting sin or apostasy is a light matter.

 

[Damien50]

I believe that this Parable can be preached concerning the Lost and the Saved, in fact it was just preached from this Sunday night concerning both one that is Lost and one that is Saved. I suppose that I see it more for me because one Im saved and two I recently experience this in my life.

Where you see the famine in the land as not having the presence of the Holy Spirit thus being someone who is Lost (again I can understand this and it definitely CAN be preached in this manner however it doesnt exclude it from what I am saying, as the Word of God is amazing in being able to speak to both Lost and Saved in the same verse) I see it as the Holy Spirit being far from a person, and thus the protection and blessings of God being in famine in the Saved persons life. That is what happened to me, I was in a famine of the Power of the Holy Spirit in my life, I was in a famine for the Blessings of God and the Fruits of the Spirit in my Life. I was saved, God was still working on me but it was from chastisement and not in the blessing of a close walk. Therefore I was in want and famine, and I was turning to the World aka the join himself to a citizen of the country ( v15) to try and fulfill the needs I had aka eat the husks of swines (v16).

Also you say that the Lost experience guilt, but do they experience it for and in the same manner a Saved person would or does? I definitely dont think so, not even in the least.

So the thing I was participating in at that time, they are upheld is GOOD in Society with the Lost continually partaking in them and NOT feeling any real guilt. Cussing, how often are the Lost cussing and never once feel anything at all about it? Drinking, how often are the Lost priding themselves on drinking and not at all feeling any type of guilt for it? Smoking weed, how often are the Lost getting high and not once feeling any type of conviction to stop? Watching Porn or Fornicating ( I wasnt fornicating) how many Lost people have sex outside of marriage or watch Porn and think absolutely nothing of it? Some even saying its Good and Healthly to participate in all of these activities?

I can tell you before I was Saved I could participate in ALL of these things and NEVER felt any guilt about them, not one little bit of guilt, no desire to repent! Since I have been saved, when or if I would have participated in these things conviction came or does come. I have struggled with some of these Sins, I even tried to justify some of them, but nothing I did was stopping the overwhelming conviction I felt when participating in them.

The biggest example would be smoking weed, I was a complete and total pot head before I got saved and never once did I feel any type of conviction when I would smoke, not even in the slightest. However after I have been saved, I definitely would be convicted. I even have tried to convince myself that smoking was fine and dandy, inventing all sorts of reasons and I kept smoking on and off for years, however I could ALWAYS feel conviction set in when I got high.

When my mom died and I walked away fully, I was smoking all the time (that whole giving myself to the citizen and eating the husks) and I was in my mind still trying to justify why it was ok that I was smoking, however EVERY time I would smoke I could feel the Holy Spirit convicting me, like seriously it, it was miserable I couldnt stand it, I could just hear God speaking to my heart, why are you doing this, it is literally making you miserable REPENT. And there I was high off my butt thinking man I need to repent and as soon as I would come down, my Flesh, the Devil and the World all came at me and said get high again, itll help you deal with the problems you are dealing with or at least numb them and make you happy for a moment and boom Id get high again.

It was an awful cycle, I was so incredibly miserable, and it wasnt until I fell to my knees and cried out for the Lord to help me Repent from a broken and contrite heart that anything changed. But once I cried out immediately everything did change and within a week I had stopped all of the things I was doing out in the World trying to fill the hole left from the death of my mother, I was in a Church and the Blessings of God started to pour in!!!

So while I understand your point, I definitely see that Parable as relating to the Saved and I can testify to the difference between Holy Spirit conviction and supposed Worldly guilt...

I can see both ways but I don't agree that there is some special guilt for the saved, if anything the saved are more self aware of their transgressions but the Israelites were quite aware as well. The unsaved don't typically know or care as much as the saved but morality isn't exclusive to the saved either. Adam and Eve knew they were wrong from start to finish and I'm sure felt quite guilty but I haven't found any verses to highlight there being anything to what you're saying.

If anything, you being saved increased your self awareness and now you're more apt you feel conviction. When I got saved at twelve I didn't even know what I had done until ten years later but before and after the guilt was always there but when I immersed myself I became more aware of the consequences of my actions and had a better understanding.

 

[X-Maverick]

How could anyone get 2 Timothy 4:1 out of context?
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Does anyone who falls away from the faith really expect to go to heaven?

What does it mean to fall away from the faith though? It certainly isn't determined by your sins. You know, since the keyword is FAITH and all. Falling away from the faith and heeding doctrines of demons heavily implies believing contrary to the Gospel.

Also, it's very presumptuous of you to imply the people from the old Biblical days may not be saved. What in scripture makes you think there's a possibility they aren't? If they aren't, then that gives us cause to greatly fear God in a way none of us currently do. If the many saints of old aren't saved, then you are wholly arrogant and prideful to think yourself saved in comparison. We are not better than them.

If you're right (you aren't) then Heaven would be one very empty place. Why one would believe as you do is beyond my understanding.

 

[Lisa]

What does it mean to fall away from the faith though? It certainly isn't determined by your sins. You know, since the keyword is FAITH and all. Falling away from the faith and heeding doctrines of demons heavily implies believing contrary to the Gospel.

Also, it's very presumptuous of you to imply the people from the old Biblical days may not be saved. What in scripture makes you think there's a possibility they aren't? If they aren't, then that gives us cause to greatly fear God in a way none of us currently do. If the many saints of old aren't saved, then you are wholly arrogant and prideful to think yourself saved in comparison. We are not better than them.

If you're right (you aren't) then Heaven would be one very empty place. Why one would believe as you do is beyond my understanding.

Yes, exactly! Wrong belief seems to be behind the falling away...which is probably why we are warned over and over about being deceived?
My thing is why warn us if it doesn’t really matter?

Is it presumptuous to not revere people from the Bible? I was just wondering since you seemed to know where it says that they are all saved...because they all start off well...David and Solomon and then go downhill. So I just wonder about them. Thinking of the Israelites in the desert and when they tested God, they didn’t get into the promised land.

You know it’s not horrible to think about these things...

Well, I think heaven will be more empty than crowded. Because of...
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Well I think that I read the Bible how it is and not how I want it to be..

 

[enderpotato00]

This is why I don't like religion that much. I believe there is a god, but not in the way like Christians or Jews interpret him. Most organized religion is corrupt or terrible.

 

[Lisa]

This is why I don't like religion that much. I believe there is a god, but not in the way like Christians or Jews interpret him. Most organized religion is corrupt or terrible.

Yes, religion is corrupt. This is a sin filled world after all. However, there is a God and believing in Him is about salvation and a changed life.

 

[X-Maverick]

a changed life.

Not all those who are saved show a changed life. Everyone progresses at different rates and in different ways. No one on this Earth can tell who is saved based on what their life looks like.

 

[Lisa]

Not all those who are saved show a changed life. Everyone progresses at different rates and in different ways. No one on this Earth can tell who is saved based on what their life looks like.

2 Corinthians 5:7
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold new things have come.

 

[X-Maverick]

2 Corinthians 5:7
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold new things have come.

Anyone can isolate scripture to get it to say what they want it to. Tell me what in that text is directly saying that you will be an entirely different person? What are the new things that are in you? Maybe your soul is regenerated. Is that what it could be talking about? No, of course not. It must be your outer life, that's what changes in just a few milliseconds after belief!

The false (yet subtle) doctrines you're spreading in this topic are quite annoying. Arrogance and pride are two things Christians of today excel at. It's quite disgusting, really.

 

[Lisa]

Anyone can isolate scripture to get it to say what they want it to. Tell me what in that text is directly saying that you will be an entirely different person? What are the new things that are in you? Maybe your soul is regenerated. Is that what it could be talking about? No, of course not. It must be your outer life, that's what changes in just a few milliseconds after belief!

The false (yet subtle) doctrines you're spreading in this topic are quite annoying. Arrogance and pride are two things Christians of today excel at. It's quite disgusting, really.

What is arrogant in what I’m saying? I’m just quoting scripture and talking about what it says. We are on a forum and that is what people to do...talk about what they believe, isn’t it? Its also not pride on my part, but I do believe if you are a Christian, you will be changed and that’s because God tells us that the old things have passed away and new things have come.

We can look at the fruits of the Spirit-love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Verse 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. I mean, it seems to me that a Christian would have more of these traits, and a person would be able to tell someone is different with them.

In Ephesians 4, Paul tells us that in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which is in the likeness of God and has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

This is the mentality/message that has made the church basically ineffective and weak!

What mentality? The one that BELIEVES the Word of God?

The one that believes John 3:16, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:8, Galatians 3:16 & countless other Verses that says salvation is by grace through faith & that Jesus paid it all?

The mentality that works CANNOT save & that we are ALL guilty, wretched sinners deserving of Hell but that God LOVES us enough to take on flesh as His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ who lived a sinless life, then willingly bore OUR sins on the Cross & suffered the full Wrath of God in our place as He died, was buried & 3 days later He was raised up bodily....PROOF that God will likewise raise up those who BELIEVE that is true?

No, Todd....that is not weakening any church, it is the Gospel of Jesus the Christ....the ONLY WAY to be saved, and it is by BELIEVING the Gospel that one is saved from the Hell we deserve & receive the free gift of salvation that Jesus purchased with His own, precious Blood.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” ....Romans 11:6

 

[Todd]

@Claire Rousseau
Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Todd
https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

 

[Todd]

@Todd
https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

blah, blah, blah.....
source or effect, clearly works are not irrelevant. I'm tired of Pauline Christians who think works are not relevant at all.
This link is a weak attempt to try and reconcile the gospels of Paul and Jesus.

 

[Forever Light]

 

[elsbet]

↑
Someone I know became a Christian a few years ago from a biker / skinhead background. He had spent twenty years fighting, drinking and swearing. That didn't stop the moment he believed, but sure enough, over time he has started to change. That change has been due to the Holy Spirit convicting him, not anyone else telling him what to do. He is "another man's servant" and the Lord is able to make him stand.
Click to expand...
Rainerann said:
You cannot be born again and continue to sin. There is not such thing as a person who continue committing adultery after becoming saved. It would make you miserable. If is like having an allergic reaction to sin when you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The Parable of the Sower
MARK 4:2-9

And [Jesus] was teaching them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them:

Behold, a sower went out to sow.
And as he sowed, some seed fell
along the path, and the birds came
and devoured it.
​

Spoiler

Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away. Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.” And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”