Differences between the Bible and Islam

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Continuing where i had left off on Noah's story

Continuing to compare and contrast the prophets who appear in both the Bible and Islam.

Next up, Noah.

The story of Noah is in Genesis chaptes 5-9
Noah's story is told (among other places) in the Quran chapter 11:25- 11:48



-Why was Noah preaching / why did God send the flood?

Bible: mankind was wicked and every thought was evil, all flesh and the earth had been corrupted.

Gen 6:5-12
5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
...
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.


Islam: to repent from idolatry, specifically worshipping statues or images (71:2-3)

For many generations Noah's people had been worshipping statues that they called gods.
...
Into this environment Allah sent Noah with His message to his people. Noah was the only intellectual not caught in the whirlpool of man's destruction which was caused by polytheism.



Thn Abbas explained: "Following upon the death of those righteous men, Satan inspired their people to erect statues in the places where they used to sit. They did this, but these statues were not worshipped until the coming generations deviated from the right way of life. Then they worshipped them as their idols."
...
The essence of this point is that every idol from those earlier mentioned was worshipped by a certain group of people. It was mentioned that people made pictures and as the ages passed they made these pictures into statues, so that their forms could be fully recognized; afterwards they were worshipped instead of Allah.







- How old was Noah when the flood happened, or when he died?

Bible:
Flood happened in Noah's 600th year
Genesis 7
11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened

He died when he was 950
Genesis 9
28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died


Islam:

Noah preached for 950 yrs before the flood (29:14)
Indeed, We sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them for a thousand years, less fifty. Then the Flood overtook them, while they persisted in wrongdoing.


Noah continued to call his people to believe in Allah for nine hundred fifty years. Allah the Almighty said: And indeed We sent Noah to his people, and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years (inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism), and discard the false gods and other deities). Quran Ayah 29:14




Was ark built during Noah's preaching or after?

Bible:
The Bible tells us Noah began work on the ark right away.

Genesis 6
13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch

Islam:
Once no one else would believe Noah was told to build the ark (11:36-38)
And it was revealed to Noah, “None of your people will believe except those who already have. So do not be distressed by what they have been doing.


Also, Noah prays for the unbelievers' destruction


There came a day when Allah revealed to Noah that no others would believe. Allah inspired him not to grieve for them, at which point Noah prayed that the disbelievers be destroyed. He said: 'My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth. If you leave them, they will mislead Your slaves, and they will beget none but wicked disbelievers." Surah 71:27

Allah accepted Noah's prayer. The case was closed, and He passed His judgment on the disbelievers in the form of a flood. Allah the Exalted ordered His worshiper Noah to build an ark with His knowledge and instructions, and with the help of angels. Almighty Allah commanded: "And construct the ship under Our Eyes and with Our Inspiration, and address Me not on behalf of those who did wrong; they are surely to be drowned." Quran Ayah 11:37

-When did Noah enter the ark?

. According to Islam
When the oven overflowed with water it was a sign.

The ship was constructed, and Noah sat waiting Allah's command. Allah revealed to him that when water miraculously gushed forth from the oven at Noah's house, that would be the sign of the start of the flood, the sign for Noah to act.

The terrible day arrived when the oven at Noah's house overflowed. Noah hurried to open the ark and summon the believers.




. According to the Bible
A week before the flood began

Genesis 7
1And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

6And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth




- How many people were in the Noah's ark, and who were they?

. According to Islam:

Believers, not his wife, or a 4th son.
Either 80, 72, 10 people.


Noah's wife was not a believer with him, so she did not join him; neither did one of Noah's sons, who was secretly a disbeliever but had pretended faith in front of Noah. Likewise most of the people were disbelievers and did not go on board.

The scholars (Ulama) hold different opinions on the number of those who were with Noah on the ship. Ibn Abbas stated that ther were eighty believers, while Ka'ab Al-Ahbar held that there were seventy-two. Others claimed that there were ten believers with Noah.




And ˹so˺ the Ark sailed with them through waves like mountains. Noah called out to his son, who stood apart, “O my dear son! Come aboard with us and do not be with the disbelievers.”

He replied, “I will take refuge on a mountain, which will protect me from the water.” Noah cried, “Today no one is protected from Allah’s decree except those to whom He shows mercy!” And the waves came between them, and his son was among the drowned.




. According to the Bible
8 people: Noah, his wife, three sons, their wives


Genesis 6
18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee

Genesis 7
13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark

2Peter 2:5
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;




- Were any sinners spared?

. According to Islam
No sinners were spared. Noah had prayed for their destruction.

Noah had prayed, “My Lord! Do not leave a single disbeliever on earth.

For if You spare ˹any of˺ them, they will certainly mislead Your servants, and give birth only to ˹wicked˺ sinners, staunch disbelievers.




. According to the Bible
Every living thing on land died except those on the ark

Genesis 7
23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark



- what happened after the flood?

. According to Islam, no more information is available.


The Quran draws the curtain on Noah's story. We do not know how his affairs with his people continued. All we know or can ascertain is that on his deathbed, he requested his son to worship Allah alone. Noah then passed away.

Abdullah Ibn Amru Ibn Alaas narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "When the death of the Messenger of Allah Noah approached, he admonished his sons: 'Indeed I would give you far-reaching advice, commanding you to do two things, and warning you against doing two as well. I charge you (to believe) that there is no god but Allah and that if the seven heavens and the seven earths were put on one side of a scale and the words 'There is no god but Allah' were put on the other, the latter would outweigh the former. And I warn you against associating partners with Allah and against pride.'"


. According to the Bible

I'll include the whole chapter,as it is quite detailed

Genesis 9
1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

7And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.


18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died
God blesses Noah and his sons, vs 1
God puts fear of man into the formerly tame animals, gives mankind the right to eat animals, vs 2-3
Eating blood is prohibited, vs 4

God establishes the Noahide covenant, verse 9: He will not destroy all life by a flood again, verse 11. The rainbow is the token of the covenant, vs 13, 17?


Time passes, enough time for Noah to have grandchildren which were not on the ark. He plants a vineyard, vs 20; gets drunk, vs21; his son Ham sees his nakedness and tells his brothers, vs 22; resulting curse of canaan, Ham's son, vs 25.
 
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I decided to leave the question of it is was a worldwide flood/if we're all the descendants of Noah for a separate post, as it appears to be disputed.

(This is not meant as a dig at Islam - from what i understand Bible scholars are not in agreement about the matter. Bible scholars in general do not believe in the Bible, and are often seeking to prove it wrong because of "science")

The Quran verses i posted in my previous post say all unbelievers died. This would indicate that either the flood was worldwide, or human civilization only existed in that localized area.

However, are all of us alive now descendants of Noah, or descendants of Adam?

According to the Bible, the only people on the ark were Noah and his sons and their wives, as i posted in my last post.
If there were other people abord according to Islam, then we would not all be descendants of Noah necessarily.

I found this site which discusses this.
(And no, i dont know who runs it or what sect they're from, or if they have an agenda, etc. If this site is wrong, post a better one)


The clear text of the Qur’an indicates that everyone who was on earth drowned in the flood, and no humans or animals were saved except those whom Nooh took with him on board the ark.

Allah, may He be exalted, said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We saved him and those with him in the laden ship.

Then We drowned the rest (disbelievers) thereafter”

[ash-Shu‘ara’ 26:119-120].

“(So it was) till then there came Our Command and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: ‘Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And none believed with him, except a few.’”

[Hood 11:40].

“They denied him, but We delivered him, and those with him in the ship, and We made them generations replacing one after another, while We drowned those who belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). Then see what was the end of those who were warned”

[Yoonus 10:73].

...
The Qur’anic text also indicates that the earth was only populated after that by the descendants of Nooh (peace be upon him). As for the believers who were saved with him in the ark, none of their descendants were left. So all the people on earth now are descended from Nooh (peace be upon him).

Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And indeed Nooh (Noah) invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (the request).

And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),

And, his progeny, them We made the survivors (i.e. Shem, Ham and Japheth).

And left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations to come in later times.

Salamun (peace) be upon Nooh (Noah) (from Us) among the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!"

Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)

Verily, he (Nooh (Noah) ) was one of Our believing slaves.

Then We drowned the other (disbelievers and polytheists, etc.)”

[as-Saaffaat 37:75-82].

‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas: There was no one left except the progeny of Nooh (peace be upon him).

Qataadah said concerning the words “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors”: All people are among the progeny of Nooh (peace be upon him).
...
Allah did not give any of those believers who were with him children or descendants, apart from Nooh (peace be upon him). Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors” [as-Saaffaat 37:77]. So everyone on the face of the earth today, of all races, are the sons of Adam who are descended from the three sons of Nooh, namely Saam, Haam and Yaafith (Shem, Ham and Japeth). End quote.

Al-Bidaayah wa’n-Nihaayah, 1/111-114

Al-‘Allaamah at-Taahir ibn ‘Ashoor (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The fact that the phrase “them We made the survivors” begins with the pronoun is to indicate exclusivity. In other words: There was no one left of mankind except those whom Allah saved with Nooh in the ark, of his offspring, then those who were descended from them. There was no one left of the sons of Adam apart from the progeny of Nooh. So all nations are among the progeny of the three sons of Nooh. The apparent meaning of this is that those who believed with Nooh apart from his sons did not have any offspring. Ibn ‘Abbaas said: When Nooh came out of the ark, the men and women who were with him died, except for his sons and his wives. Thus we may respond to the apparent contradiction between this verse and the verse in Soorat Hood (“We said: ‘Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And none believed with him, except a few.’” [Hood 11:40]). This is based on the idea that the flood covered the entire earth and destroyed all humans except those whom Nooh carried on board the Ark. End quote.


So, Islam and the Bible are in agreement that we are all the descendants of Noah specifically, not Adam.
 
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This article discusses the differences between the story of Noah in the Bible and the Quran


As with many other stories found in the Bible, this story is also found in the Quran, and as with the other stories, the Biblical and Quranic versions of Noah and the flood have some similarities as well as some major differences. In this article, we will discuss these differences and why they are significant enough to put the Quran and the Bible at odds with each other.


I am unsure if the author of this article is not well versed in the Bible, or is deliberately leaving things out.

For example, the article says

In the brief summary above, we can see that the whole world had become sinful and was beyond salvation.
In other words, God sent the flood upon an unsuspecting world
without warning.
...
When reading the Quranic story of Nuh (peace be upon him), some major differences with the Biblical version immediately become apparent. First, unlike the Biblical account which claims that God sent the flood on an unsuspecting and sinful world, the Quran states that the flood was sent upon Nuh’s people only after they had consistently rejected his warnings and refused to shun their idols and worship Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) alone. It is a consistent message in the Quran that even if people are living in sin, God will not punish them until He has given them a chance to repent and sent a messenger to warn them.[42] If they do not, then and only then, will He punish them.



It is untrue that there was no warning. While the book of Genesis does not go into detail about it, in 2Peter2 the Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness". When would he have been preaching righteousness, before or after the flood?

2Peter 2
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly





In contrast to the site i quoted in my previous post, this person believes the flood was not global.

Second, regarding the alleged global nature of the flood, the context of the Quranic story suggests that the flood was in fact a local one, or at most, affected the region in which Nuh (peace be upon him) and his people lived. It also affected only the people of Nuh (peace be upon him).
...

How could Nuh (peace be upon him) have been referring to people in other parts of the world whom he had never met and was never sent to? How could they have “disobeyed” him if they had not even heard him preaching? Clearly, he was praying that all the disbelievers among his people, who had stubbornly refused to listen to him, would be destroyed. It does not necessitate a global flood, since he was sent to his own people and was praying for their destruction after spending most of his life trying to teach them. Some Muslim apologists, such as Bassam Zawadi,[47] suggest that in Nuh’s time, his people were the only ones in the entire world. If this was true, then it only serves to further deny the possibility of a global flood, since a localized flood would have done the job. A global flood would have been unnecessary.



In my personal opinion based on the Bible, it was a worldwide flood but also the population was somewhat localized, having not been dispersed by God yet.
Also, keep in mind that Noah preached repentance for many years, so he had plenty of time to reach people who were not extremely local to him.



Regarding the flood not being worldwide he writes:

The prevalence of flood myths in almost every culture in the world, such as the Mesopotamian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh, has led skeptics to think that the Noah story was simply adapted from the earlier Sumerian myth. However, as Lorence G. Collins (California State University Northridge) notes:

“Because these stories all describe an ancient huge flood in Mesopotamia, it is extremely likely that a huge flood could have occurred” (“Yes, Noah’s Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth”, Reports of the National Center for Science Education, 29, no. 5 (2009): 38, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299484008_Yes_Noah’s_Flood_may_have_happened_but_not_over_the_whole_earth).
Collins also provides geological evidence for a local flood in Mesopotamia, and also notes the complete absence of evidence for a global one.

But if we think of a young earth, how else would phenomenon like the grand canyon be explained if not a worldwide flood? Claiming there is no evidence for a worldwide flood is too much of an appeal to science (and an old earth), which denies God.




According to this article, the Bible is not true because of the date of Noah's flood. The author based this off of egyptian chronologies which don't mention a flood in the region. This is not something i have looked into, but what a bunch of egyptian pagans said against the Bible is not a rebuttal i take serious. The Bible itself does not have a good opinion of egypt...


He also makes the claim that even the fact that there were 8 people aboard the ark is pagan. Again, based on what egyptians say.

Another interesting problem with the Biblical story of Noah are the apparent parallels with ancient Egyptian mythology, especially pertaining to his family. According to author Gary Greenberg, in the Egyptian creation story known as the “Hermopolitan Creation myth”, four males and four females (the “Ogdoad” or “group of eight”) “emerged from the primeval flood and crawled onto the first land.”[17] He notes that the four male deities were Nun, Huh, Kuk, and Amen. Of these, Nun “signified the primeval flood” and was usually depicted “standing waist-high in the primeval waters and holding aloft the solar boat that carried other deities.”[18] The interesting parallel with the Biblical story is that there were eight people in the ark, four males (Noah and his three sons) and four females (their wives)...


Whenever i heard allegations that the Bible was taken from pagan myths, my obvious response is that it's the other way around: the events recorded in Genesis predate the writing of the Bible, a fact i don't believe any Christian disputes. The events happened - the pagans mythologized them. The reason peoples from all over the world share similar stories is because these stories are from a time before God scattered mankind, after the tower of Babel incident.


Last "inconsistency" is the issue of who is Canaan. The Bible clearly says he was Ham's son, Noah's grandson. Why was he cursed?

I'll post the whole passage again
Genesis 9
18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22And Ham, the father
of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren
.


So, a couple possibilities
- Canaan is Noah's grandson, and that is why he is referred to as Noah's younger son. The Bible has other instances of calling a grandchild the "son" of someone.
- this one is controversial: Canaan had not been born yet and is Ham's son with Noah's wife. When Ham "uncovered his father's nakedness" it could be a referrence to Ham "knowing" Noah's wife. In the Bible, it says:

Leviticus 18
8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness


In short, i don't know which one it is - maybe even none of the above - and it is not a salvation issue.
(Also, since Noah's sons are not prophets this should not be an issue of character assasination either...)
 
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This article discusses the differences between the story of Noah in the Bible and the Quran


As with many other stories found in the Bible, this story is also found in the Quran, and as with the other stories, the Biblical and Quranic versions of Noah and the flood have some similarities as well as some major differences. In this article, we will discuss these differences and why they are significant enough to put the Quran and the Bible at odds with each other.


I am unsure if the author of this article is not well versed in the Bible, or is deliberately leaving things out.

For example, the article says

In the brief summary above, we can see that the whole world had become sinful and was beyond salvation.
In other words, God sent the flood upon an unsuspecting world
without warning.
...
When reading the Quranic story of Nuh (peace be upon him), some major differences with the Biblical version immediately become apparent. First, unlike the Biblical account which claims that God sent the flood on an unsuspecting and sinful world, the Quran states that the flood was sent upon Nuh’s people only after they had consistently rejected his warnings and refused to shun their idols and worship Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) alone. It is a consistent message in the Quran that even if people are living in sin, God will not punish them until He has given them a chance to repent and sent a messenger to warn them.[42] If they do not, then and only then, will He punish them.



It is untrue that there was no warning. While the book of Genesis does not go into detail about it, in 2Peter2 the Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness". When would he have been preaching righteousness, before or after the flood?

2Peter 2
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly




In contrast to the site i quoted in my previous post, this person believes the flood was not global.

Second, regarding the alleged global nature of the flood, the context of the Quranic story suggests that the flood was in fact a local one, or at most, affected the region in which Nuh (peace be upon him) and his people lived. It also affected only the people of Nuh (peace be upon him).
...

How could Nuh (peace be upon him) have been referring to people in other parts of the world whom he had never met and was never sent to? How could they have “disobeyed” him if they had not even heard him preaching? Clearly, he was praying that all the disbelievers among his people, who had stubbornly refused to listen to him, would be destroyed. It does not necessitate a global flood, since he was sent to his own people and was praying for their destruction after spending most of his life trying to teach them. Some Muslim apologists, such as Bassam Zawadi,[47] suggest that in Nuh’s time, his people were the only ones in the entire world. If this was true, then it only serves to further deny the possibility of a global flood, since a localized flood would have done the job. A global flood would have been unnecessary.



In my personal opinion based on the Bible, it was a worldwide flood but also the population was somewhat localized, having not been dispersed by God yet.
Also, keep in mind that Noah preached repentance for many years, so he had plenty of time to reach people who were not extremely local to him.



Regarding the flood not being worldwide he writes:

The prevalence of flood myths in almost every culture in the world, such as the Mesopotamian flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh, has led skeptics to think that the Noah story was simply adapted from the earlier Sumerian myth. However, as Lorence G. Collins (California State University Northridge) notes:


Collins also provides geological evidence for a local flood in Mesopotamia, and also notes the complete absence of evidence for a global one.


But if we think of a young earth, how else would phenomenon like the grand canyon be explained if not a worldwide flood? Claiming there is no evidence for a worldwide flood is too much of an appeal to science (and an old earth), which denies God.




According to this article, the Bible is not true because of the date of Noah's flood. The author based this off of egyptian chronologies which don't mention a flood in the region. This is not something i have looked into, but what a bunch of egyptian pagans said against the Bible is not a rebuttal i take serious. The Bible itself does not have a good opinion of egypt...


He also makes the claim that even the fact that there were 8 people aboard the ark is pagan. Again, based on what egyptians say.

Another interesting problem with the Biblical story of Noah are the apparent parallels with ancient Egyptian mythology, especially pertaining to his family. According to author Gary Greenberg, in the Egyptian creation story known as the “Hermopolitan Creation myth”, four males and four females (the “Ogdoad” or “group of eight”) “emerged from the primeval flood and crawled onto the first land.”[17] He notes that the four male deities were Nun, Huh, Kuk, and Amen. Of these, Nun “signified the primeval flood” and was usually depicted “standing waist-high in the primeval waters and holding aloft the solar boat that carried other deities.”[18] The interesting parallel with the Biblical story is that there were eight people in the ark, four males (Noah and his three sons) and four females (their wives)...


Whenever i heard allegations that the Bible was taken from pagan myths, my obvious response is that it's the other way around: the events recorded in Genesis predate the writing of the Bible, a fact i don't believe any Christian disputes. The events happened - the pagans mythologized them. The reason peoples from all over the world share similar stories is because these stories are from a time before God scattered mankind, after the tower of Babel incident.


Last "inconsistency" is the issue of who is Canaan. The Bible clearly says he was Ham's son, Noah's grandson. Why was he cursed?

I'll post the whole passage again
Genesis 9
18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22And Ham, the father
of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren
.


So, a couple possibilities
- Canaan is Noah's grandson, and that is why he is referred to as Noah's younger son. The Bible has other instances of calling a grandchild the "son" of someone.
- this one is controversial: Canaan had not been born yet and is Ham's son with Noah's wife. When Ham "uncovered his father's nakedness" it could be a referrence to Ham "knowing" Noah's wife. In the Bible, it says:

Leviticus 18
8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness


In short, i don't know which one it is - maybe even none of the above - and it is not a salvation issue.
(Also, since Noah's sons are not prophets this should not be an issue of character assasination either...)
i suggest you look into The epic of Gilgamesh... :)
 

Maldarker

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Ok, it's becoming clear that the answer is yeah, i shouldn't have made the thread.

When one side constantly attacks the Bible and people who believe the Bible, yet any questions i ask are considered an "attack", and "agenda", an "obsession", etc, it makes it clear that this is not a discussion that is able to be had.

I PERSONALLY did not attack anyone, nor did i post anything deliberately offensive. But despite my attempts to take care and avoid this my motives get questioned and my beliefs get attacked.

NO ONE is FORCING ANYONE to accept what the Bible says.

If a question is asked and the Bible says something, then i will say "the Bible says this"*. But then the accusation is "Christians can only repeat what their scriptures say"...

If something is NOT directly explained in the Bible, then i give my thoughts. But then the accusation is "that's just your opinion" or "other Christians don't agree with you"...

So. Can't go by what the Bible says... can't go by my own opinion...


*not that it matters, because even if i quote the Bible directly , such as in the matter of David and Bathsheba, a lie will continue to be repeated regardless


Anyway, despite this becoming a trainwreck i will continue the thread. I think discussing how the two views are different - beyond the topic of Jesus - is important, and is not discussed often. I, for one, have learned a lot.
Anything you say doesn't matter to them (muslim/islam) they take joy in defaming JESUS and HIS word plain and simple. They give false platitudes to make it seem like they are the end all be all quran is perfection of perfection thats perfected upon perfection see where i'm going what a crock. If that was true then they would be or should be the less violent etc of us but yet but yet you can see it in word and action...they debase christians (where christians know we are sinners and are flawed and without christ there is no hope for us none) they think they are without fault because you went to mecca you prayed like a robot 5 times a day etc ( this is works join the catholics very similar mind set ) reminds me of two alcoholics one that knows they need AA and the one that says i got this i'm not an alcoholic deny deny deny
 
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i suggest you look into The epic of Gilgamesh... :)

Gilgamesh observes that Utnapishtim seems no different from himself, and asks him how he obtained his immortality. Utnapishtim explains that the gods decided to send a great flood. To save Utnapishtim the god Enki told him to build a boat. He gave him precise dimensions, and it was sealed with pitch and bitumen. His entire family went aboard together with his craftsmen and "all the animals of the field". A violent storm then arose which caused the terrified gods to retreat to the heavens. Ishtar lamented the wholesale destruction of humanity, and the other gods wept beside her. The storm lasted six days and nights, after which "all the human beings turned to clay". Utnapishtim weeps when he sees the destruction. His boat lodges on a mountain, and he releases a dove, a swallow, and a raven. When the raven fails to return, he opens the ark and frees its inhabitants. Utnapishtim offers a sacrifice to the gods, who smell the sweet savor and gather around. Ishtar vows that just as she will never forget the brilliant necklace that hangs around her neck, she will always remember this time. When Enlil arrives, angry that there are survivors, she condemns him for instigating the flood. Enki also castigates him for sending a disproportionate punishment. Enlil blesses Utnapishtim and his wife, and rewards them with eternal life. This account largely matches the flood story that concludes the Epic of Atra-Hasis.[47][32]
I'm vaguely familiar with it, i read what sitchin had to say about it in one of his books while researching for one of my other threads.

In my view, the worldwide flood happened (long before the Bible was written) and different peoples wrote about it afterwards, including the sumerians.

Since these people rejected God and worshipped these fallen beings (like ishtar) they mythologized the events and refused to accept why the flood occured - because mankind was sinful and corrupted. Instead it was about different "gods" bickering with each other. Now, were these demons often at odds with each other? Could be. But either way they are not God.
 
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protestant = more monotheist... in a sense (than catholic)

but protestantism is what led to liberalism, relativism, etc...

Bible means whatever I want

evolved to

a person's gender is whatever they want

#IncredibleButTrue
I doesnt mean "whatever i want", it means what it says.
The catholics were the ones who claim it means the opposite of what it says.

It could be argued that some of the branches of protestantism that are officially recognized instead of being called "heretics" were allowed to exist as masonic controled opposition.

So nowadays when someone mentions a protestant they push the narrative of a denomination with tranny priests who performs sodomite marriages instead of a fundamentalist baptist.
 

Haich

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Why generalize?
I literally explained to her a few pages ago that we either defend ourselves and our families in the event of danger, or with minor things we let it go. You see how they lie? Now she’s claiming we don’t accept ‘turn the other cheek’ at all, even though I posted Quran verses in the response I’m referring to, where God is telling us to prioritise peace and only resort to self defence in serious threats.
 

Haich

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Turn the other cheek isn’t a realistic, absolute response to everything in life.There’s a Christian called Jesus’Soldier in the Israel thread who openly admitted that he defends himself when necessary. You guys all believe in different things. You have Toxic who claims she wouldn’t even defend her own property and you have Jesus’Soldier who will.
IMG_6252.png
 

Haich

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Very disappointed you lied, Toxic.

Here’s my post where I DON’T reject turning the other cheek in its entirety, I explain a nuanced approach is needed. Quran verses included.

 
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Very disappointed you lied, Toxic.

Here’s my post where I DON’T reject turning the other cheek in its entirety, I explain a nuanced approach is needed. Quran verses included.

I didn't lie. I'm sorry you feel i did.
There were other posts in this thread in which you mentioned how unrealistic you consider the doctrine. Yet many Christians throughout history have either been martyred or have fled rather than resort to violence, so no, it's not what "literally everyone does". It is not an unbiblical position. Also not a salvation issue. Up to each believer's conscience.


And yes, since you mention the other thread, i did see that. I did not respond because i wasnt looking for drama with the other poster.
I found it absolutely appalling that he said that he would use violence to protect property, not just life. Actually, his whole stance on innocents being killed was appalling. He doesn't speak for me.

And God ordering genocide in the Old Testament (the quote in the picture) doesn't apply to Christians, or modern zionists for that matter.

You also didnt include here your response to him which hints that you approve of his attitude, although obviously not who it is directed at.

All jokes aside, I of course disagree with your stance on Israel. I think they are a murderous, evil and relentless force that have been targeting civilians intentionally in Palestine. They’ve violated international law multiple times and the world is watching and doing nothing. It’s an atrocious situation which does bring most to tears. You’re free entirely to believe in your Bible and whatever you believe it says about supporting Israel. I’m not going to spend time trying to convince you otherwise as I genuinely do not care anymore. It’s clear a lot on this forum just have black hearts.

But you go Glen Co Co! It’s so nice to hear a Christian who actually believes in defending themselves. This whole turn the other cheek thing doesn’t work when there’s a clear threat to you or your family!
As a nonChristian, why does it even matter to you if Christians believe in using force to defend themselves or not?
 

Haich

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I didn't lie. I'm sorry you feel i did.
There were other posts in this thread in which you mentioned how unrealistic you consider the doctrine. Yet many Christians throughout history have either been martyred or have fled rather than resort to violence, so no, it's not what "literally everyone does". It is not an unbiblical position. Also not a salvation issue. Up to each believer's conscience.


And yes, since you mention the other thread, i did see that. I did not respond because i wasnt looking for drama with the other poster.
I found it absolutely appalling that he said that he would use violence to protect property, not just life. Actually, his whole stance on innocents being killed was appalling. He doesn't speak for me.

And God ordering genocide in the Old Testament (the quote in the picture) doesn't apply to Christians, or modern zionists for that matter.

You also didnt include here your response to him which hints that you approve of his attitude, although obviously not who it is directed at.



As a nonChristian, why does it even matter to you if Christians believe in using force to defend themselves or not?
It is unrealistic, how does that make it entirely out of the question to implement? I don’t know if you have trouble reading what I post but I clearly stated and have stated that it is unrealistic to turn the other cheek in every instance and you will have to implement self defence appropriately in certain situations. I don’t see how that’s difficult to grasp. In other instances it’s perfectly fine to turn the other cheek…say in an argument or heated scuffle. You can simply walk away.

I guess you can’t detect sarcasm. I used an exclamation to convey this in my reply to him. Why would I approve of his blood thirsty response? He even posted a biblical verse which stated one should kill their family, women, children etc but I’m unfamiliar with the context so I didn’t bother pulling it up.
 

Haich

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As a nonChristian, why does it even matter to you if Christians believe in using
Because I think you’re lying when you say you will turn the other cheek or try to turn the other cheek in everyday life. Life is full of threats, so to make a blanket statement like that is woefully dishonest and ignorant. When pressed you said that’s the ideal standard and no one can live up to it, so what’s the point of preaching it if no one can live up to it?

It makes no sense. My efforts were to make you see how silly it is but of course you won’t ever think outside the box so I’ll leave my point there and you can continue with your delusion.
 
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It is unrealistic, how does that make it entirely out of the question to implement? I don’t know if you have trouble reading what I post but I clearly stated and have stated that it is unrealistic to turn the other cheek in every instance and you will have to implement self defence appropriately in certain situations. I don’t see how that’s difficult to grasp. In other instances it’s perfectly fine to turn the other cheek…say in an argument or heated scuffle. You can simply walk away.

I guess you can’t detect sarcasm. I used an exclamation to convey this in my reply to him. Why would I approve of his blood thirsty response? He even posted a biblical verse which stated one should kill their family, women, children etc but I’m unfamiliar with the context so I didn’t bother pulling it up.
I understand that you believe it is unrealistic. There's no need to assume i don't understand just because i don't agree.

I am simply saying that a) some Christians throughout the history of Christianity have done this, and b) it is the IDEAL, even though most will fall short of it.

As to when is it approprate to use force, i don't believe physical, replaceable (unlike life) property is worth using force to defend. As far as i remember in all your replies you mentioned robberies and property, not just defending life.

I would never condone injuring or killing someone over an item.

And yes, i am notoriously bad with sarcasm.

Because I think you’re lying when you say you will turn the other cheek or try to turn the other cheek in everyday life. Life is full of threats, so to make a blanket statement like that is woefully dishonest and ignorant. When pressed you said that’s the ideal standard and no one can live up to it, so what’s the point of preaching it if no one can live up to it?

It makes no sense. My efforts were to make you see how silly it is but of course you won’t ever think outside the box so I’ll leave my point there and you can continue with your delusion.
I find this laughable because you don't know me or my past history. You have no way of knowing whether i turn the other cheek or not in my daily life. But to assume the worst about me...

The point of preaching it is so we can at least TRY. To make us THINK about it.
Not to earn our salvation, but as a good example of Christian charity.
 
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