All-purpose, off-topic religious responses thread

elsbet's cat ^. .^

Established
Joined
Mar 18, 2023
Messages
411
When it comes to Jesus its not okay for you to post certain passages from the Bible and not balance them with what the rest of the Bible says about Him and what He said about Himself.
I agree.
Context is everything.

Since you brought it up, would you take a look at your post on the Pharisees, here ...? The first and last verses of the Parable have been left out, so it sounds like the Pharisees are being promoted, rather than condemned, as Jesus intended.

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
(omitted verses)

v.9
To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, (Jesus) also told this parable: ...

v. 14
I tell you, this man (the Tax Collector), rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

Maybe it was just an oversight?
The omission is a significant one because Pharisee was not justified. The Tax Collector was justified, but he didn't even warrant a mention.



...
 

elsbet's cat ^. .^

Established
Joined
Mar 18, 2023
Messages
411
I didn't want to make a separate thread...

Today my husband showed me this video


And it is so disappointing.
... the supposed Christians. And one of the "Christians" was a catholic who kept lying...

The Christians seemed to have nothing to say except secular pro-enlightenment talking points.
Each guest was introduced with his "debate specialty" included, so I opted out and went to wiki. :/

Looks like only Islam, Catholicism and maybe the Greek Orthodox church were represented. If someone identified with Protestantism, I missed it.

At some point the Muslims asked him if he was defending Christianity or secularism. Then the Christians started apologizing for the Bible. That was pathetic and sad to see. We need Christians who will defend the Bible to represent Christianity, not those that are ashamed of it.
I couldn't agree more.

My only question is, why do Muslims always go for the old testament when debating Christians? When Muslims say they "also believe the Bible ", do they only mean the old testament? (I guess that was more than one question...)

I mean, the new testament also speaks out against lgbtpqwth and also says wives should submit to their husbands, Jesus said "sin no more", we're supposed to love God above everything else, etc. so why not use the new testament to debate?
Hmm... maybe they identify with the Old Testament more than the New Testament. I'm guessing, of course-- it certainly isn't meant to be an insult. But there's nothing like what is found in the New Testament (as prophesied in the OT!) in any other 'belief' on earth. :)
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
When we have grace, we naturally obey the law. We've been pardoned and justified because we've accepted Christ's death for our sins on our behalf.
Yes.

As Christians we've got to distinguish which Old Testament laws matter and which don't with the help of the Holy spirit but its clear as day light that we still do and always will follow some Old Testament laws for eternity.
I hear you, i agree with this.

Wouldn't this be where the issue of personal convictions comes in? If we are convicted by the Holy Spirit we follow those laws, but cannot measure others to the exact same standard?

I do remember our previous discussion on ceremonial vs civil vs dietary laws.
You remember we discussed health and dietary laws that come all the way from Genesis where Noah was told that only two of the unclean animals would enter the ark but seven of the clean animal would enter the ark. God gives more rules in the the Old Testament. Those rules still apply because health is still very much important. Even in the New Testament it is not okay to eat meats and foods that God told us not to. As I mentioned, God is concerned about our overall health physically, mentally, spiritually etc.
I agree that health is important, but (and i think i said this the previous time we discussed this) i would not base someone else's salvation on whether or not they follow the dietary laws.


@ToxicFemininitySucks

I will add that Paul's writings can be confusing to Christians. I know they've confused me and I've had to study his writings in context and compare scripture with scripture. Otherwise he can come across as someone who contradicts Jesus and the entire Bible. In other parts of the New testament, he actually makes it clear that we have to obey the commandments. I will post some of them here:

Romans 7:12, 14, 16, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good."

1 Corinthians 7:19, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

1 Timothy 1:8, "But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully."
Yes, when i first started reading the Bible it did seem as though Paul was contradicting Jesus.
I can definitely agree that his writings must be read in context.

But regarding 1 Cor 7:19, isn't circumcision in fact one of the things God commanded?

Gen 17
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you

Or in this context is 1 Cor 7:19 being interpreted that circumcision is nothing but we should follow the 10 commandments?

Is circumcision to be considered part of the civil law instead? Or only applying to the original nation of Israel as a matter of identity, not those who are grafted in?

In Old Testament times people who sojourned with Israel were permitted to join if they underwent circumcision.

Exodus 12
48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

I hope you understand that I'm just trying to show you God's truth not to undermine you in any way
No problem, i dont mind some respectful debate.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
It was the larger type. About 2 inches or so. The top of a soda can is 2.25 inches to give you an idea.

View attachment 91855

He just puts them outside. I imagine they go right back inside.

A roach can go for 30 days without eating, even longer in a colony because they will cannibalize themselves. I'm sure you've heard roaches would survive a nuclear war? But water is different. If a roach can't access water in a few days it will die, so they are common in bathrooms here. Kitchens where pipes have condensation and so on..
Yeah, those are nasty.

We've been considering where to relocate to, but hearing about these 2 inch roaches is making me want to strike texas off the possibilities list.

Its like Hinduism, alot of it comes from demons inhabiting statues, causing them to do miraculous things, and the image ends up getting worshiped.

Here's alot of images showing blood coming from statues of Mary. I'm sure not all of them are fake. The same happens with statues from other religions. Buddah, Ganesh, ect.

Its common until the people go out and worship on there own. Like the article i shared with Alan a week or so ago where a stone traffic cone shaped like a penis ended up being worshiped by Hindus who came across it. For no other reason then it being phallic shaped.
Yeah, i would not be surprised if that's what's going on.

I saw that about the traffic cone.

Not sure if it was here or where i lurk sometimes but someone also posted a video of them worshipping cow dung and rubbing it on their faces.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
the reality is those who worship Jesus will be in hell.
Only speaking for myself here...

God is righteous. Only righteousness can be in his presence.

If not for Jesus Christ's blood atonement, i am going to hell. That is a fact.

Even if were to spend the remainder of my human life living as close to righteousness as possible, it does not erase the past, all my past actions and unmentionable sins. Had i been living in a theocracy as described in the Old Testament i would have been put to death, and rightly so - i deserve it.

Only being covered by the blood of Christ do i not deserve hell.

It's not a matter of idolatry, it's that to God our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Isaiah 64
5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

But - praise God - He has given us an opportunity through Jesus Christ. He is the way to the Father.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
End of the day it is God who guides and not a single one of them will pray like Jesus did.

View attachment 91857
Forgot to mention, eastern orthodox (regardless of their other issues) do pray like that.

Americans these days are thoroughly familiar with the prostrations made by Muslims during their ritual of daily prayer; we see images of it almost daily in the media. Most are not aware that Orthodox Christians practice the same discipline, kneeling in a place of worship and touching the head to the ground, before rising to stand in the usual attitude of prayer.
...
The importance of prostrations, from Theoliptos’ point of view, is far more spiritual than physical. In bending our knees we assume an attitude of humility before the God to whom we offer our prayer. Kneeling, then touching our forehead to the ground, we acknowledge our sinfulness; we create a living image of our fall into sin. Our very posture represents a confession of that state, a calling to mind of our spiritual poverty, of our susceptibility to passions of greed, lust, anger and malice.
Exactly, arrogance is what blocks guidance. As i said, none of them will pray with their face on the floor.
Pastors actually tell them not to because its demeaning.

I personally have prayed like that. Rather than demeaning i saw it as humbling. And it helped me to focus on prayer and better ignore distractions.

And, just in my opinion, i wouldnt be asking a pastor how to pray. God speaks to us directly through His words in scripture.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
Looks like only Islam, Catholicism and maybe the Greek Orthodox church were represented. If someone identified with Protestantism, I missed it.
When one of them (forgot which) was pressed about what kind of Christian he was he said something along the lines of "i'm nondenominational, sometimes i go to a catholic one and sometimes protestant".

I thought that sounded incredibly unlikely...
 

Daze

Superstar
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
6,747
Only speaking for myself here...

God is righteous. Only righteousness can be in his presence.

If not for Jesus Christ's blood atonement, i am going to hell. That is a fact.

Even if were to spend the remainder of my human life living as close to righteousness as possible, it does not erase the past, all my past actions and unmentionable sins. Had i been living in a theocracy as described in the Old Testament i would have been put to death, and rightly so - i deserve it.

Only being covered by the blood of Christ do i not deserve hell.

It's not a matter of idolatry, it's that to God our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Isaiah 64
5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

But - praise God - He has given us an opportunity through Jesus Christ. He is the way to the Father.
All of us are sinners. We were created this way because the Almighty wants to show he is the most merciful. He can't do that if there is no one to forgive. In fact, if we didn't sin God would destroy us and replace us with a creation that did and sought his forgiveness.

1695687031749.png



You speak of Jesus's atonement but he walked amongst us 2000 years ago. Does this mean those before his alleged death have no chance?
People of Moses, Solomon, Enoch, Adam? They lived and died long before Jesus even appeared.

For all we know there are 10,000 years of humanity before Jesus and possibly billions walked this earth before him. Are they all doomed because they died before the "atonement"?

There are just so many flaws in the idea of Jesus being divine, its really not worth arguing over. Either you see it or you don't. This is why i often suggest people turn to God, submit to him and ask him for guidance... and there is no better way then praying the way the prophets prayed.


I forget who it was, might have been Els, maybe Jo... but when i suggested they pray this way (head on the ground) i was told i was being deceptive. This is how brainwashed people are against Muslims.

We had a member here by the name of Scimi. He often shared a video of the way old Christians pray. It was literally the Muslim prayer, but it was Christians performing it.

This was the video if memory serves.


Here is the reality.

God sent down 3 books. The Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. If you ignore the last testament you do so at your own peril.

God makes it clear in the Quran Jesus is not divine.

1695687393204.png

If you don't want to listen to me that is fine. But for the sake of your own soul ask God for the truth. Don't assume you have it. The wager is far too high to be on the wrong path in this life.

End of the day God guides whom he wills.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
You speak of Jesus's atonement but he walked amongst us 2000 years ago. Does this mean those before his alleged death have no chance?
People of Moses, Solomon, Enoch, Adam? They lived and died long before Jesus even appeared.
No, it does not mean that.

The Bible tells us that they were found righteous by their faith.

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.


23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Romans 4:3
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

The patriarchs knew the messiah would come. It was written about in Genesis.

Genesis 3
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Adam and Eve did not physically die (as God had told them they would) because God covered their sin. In order to do so the 2 animals had to die. This foreshadows the substitutionary atonement and sacrificial system.

Genesis 3
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them


This foreshadows the sacrificial system in the Old Testament, but under the Law not all sins were able to be atoned for. Some were punished by the death penalty.

But someone who did not commit the unatonable sins (the ones punished by death penalty) and offered the appropriate sacrifice for their sins via the Levitical priests was in a temporary state of righteousness. Jesus' sacrifice was final, once and for all.


Hebrews 9

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all


its really not worth arguing over.
Yeah fair enough. Just replying to answer the question, if people want to read the response they will.

is no better way then praying the way the prophets prayed.


I forget who it was, might have been Els, maybe Jo... but when i suggested they pray this way (head on the ground) i was told i was being deceptive. This is how brainwashed people are against Muslims.

We had a member here by the name of Scimi. He often shared a video of the way old Christians pray
My Christian perspective is there's nothing wrong with praying that way, and it's not unbiblical, but if a fellow Christian doesn't pray that way i'm not going to judge their salvation, nor compel them to do so. That is between them and God.

Each individual knows in his or her own heart their reasons, and being excessively pious, especially in a performative way, can lend itself to being a source of pride.

But for the sake of your own soul ask God for the truth.
Yes, i have, and He's provided me with answers so far.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
apostate he claimed to be a follower of CHRIST
I'm reminded of this verse

2 Peter 2
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.



Sort of going back to the debate, when the Christian guy was yelling at the Muslim guy about the death penalty for apostasy and how there's no penalty in Christianity, he is lying.

He forgot about the second death. Fear not who kills the body but who destroys the soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)

Revelation 20
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,745
@ToxicFemininitySucks

I hear you, i agree with this.

Wouldn't this be where the issue of personal convictions comes in? If we are convicted by the Holy Spirit we follow those laws, but cannot measure others to the exact same standard?
The Holy Spirit does not convict different people with different truths. There is only one truth to any subject in the Bible. The Holy Spirit convicts people of the truth at different times in their lives for different reasons such as, we all come to God at different times in our lives, some people are convicted of the truth faster than others, we respond to the Holy Spirit's convictions differently etc.

Our Christian journey is personal yes, and we all walk at different paces on the path to heaven and receive the truths of God at different times, but it will always be the truth and nothing but the truth.

I do remember our previous discussion on ceremonial vs civil vs dietary laws.

I agree that health is important, but (and i think i said this the previous time we discussed this) i would not base someone else's salvation on whether or not they follow the dietary laws.
I have never said nor implied that anyone's salvation is based on anything they do (works) including what they eat. When we obey anything God has commanded of us, its because we are saved. Christ gives us the power to obey. We don't obey to be saved.

The dietary laws as well as other laws were given to us so we can lead healthy and happy lives. God cares about our lives to the minutest detail in this world and wants us to lead the best possible lives even in this sinful world (Roman 12:1, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19-20, 10:31).

Yes, when i first started reading the Bible it did seem as though Paul was contradicting Jesus.
I can definitely agree that his writings must be read in context.
Indeed. Some people think Paul did away with the law but nothing he wrote even implies that. His writings are in complete harmony with the rest of the Bible.

But regarding 1 Cor 7:19, isn't circumcision in fact one of the things God commanded?

Gen 17
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you

Or in this context is 1 Cor 7:19 being interpreted that circumcision is nothing but we should follow the 10 commandments?

Is circumcision to be considered part of the civil law instead? Or only applying to the original nation of Israel as a matter of identity, not those who are grafted in?

In Old Testament times people who sojourned with Israel were permitted to join if they underwent circumcision.

Exodus 12
48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
As you know in the Bible there is the Old and New Covenants. In the Old Covenant God commanded the Israelites and also Gentiles to be circumcised to become part of Israel. That changed in the New Covenant after Christ's death. Anyone who became/becomes a Christian and joined/joins Israel (God's Church), whether they were/are Jewish or Gentiles, didn't/don't need to be circumcised as a means to salvation. In the New Covenant we have to accept Jesus as our Saviour and obey Him.

That is why Paul wrote, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God" (Romans 2:28-29).

Paul also wrote, “For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh” (Philippians 3:3).

So "circumcision of the heart" or to be "the circumcision" in the New Covenant means to have personal faith in Jesus.

Paul had a battle with his fellow Jews over this circumcision issue. That is why he wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:19, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." He was saying whether you're circumcised or not does not matter. What matters is keeping the commandments of God and we can only do that with Christ in the driving seat in our lives.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
They Holy Spirit convicts people of the truth at different times in their lives for different reasons such as, we all come to God at different times in our lives, some people are convicted of the truth faster than others, we respond to the Holy Spirit's convictions differently etc.

Our Christian journey is personal yes, and we all walk at different paces on the path to heaven and receive the truths of God at different times, but it will always be the truth and nothing but the truth.
Yes, definitely.

It seems i just get apprehensive about judging (not trying to say you are being judgmental) other Christians' walk, especially when some convictions seem obvious.

And then there are those who stagnate on the path, perhaps even go backwards. I can't judge their salvation, but i have to say i find it frustrating to see. A bad personal testimony does so much harm to Christianity. The world sees these bad examples and says we are all like that.

I have never said nor implied that anyone's salvation is based on anything they do (works) including what they eat. When we obey anything God has commanded of us, its because we are saved. Christ gives us the power to obey. We don't obey to be saved.

The dietary laws as well as other laws were given to us so we can lead healthy and happy lives. God cares about our lives to the minutest detail in this world and wants us to lead the best possible lives even in this sinful world (Roman 12:1, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19-20, 10:31).
Yes, we don't obey to be saved, we obey because we are saved. And because He loved us before we loved Him (1Jn4:19), and died for us while we were still sinners (Rom 5:8).


In the Old Covenant God commanded the Israelites and also Gentiles to be circumcised to become part of Israel
Got it.
So it's more of a cultural identity law than a moral law.
 

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,745
@ToxicFemininitySucks
Yes, definitely.

It seems i just get apprehensive about judging (not trying to say you are being judgmental) other Christians' walk, especially when some convictions seem obvious.
I can understand that but as Christians we should always tell the truth of God and expose untruths too.

And then there are those who stagnate on the path, perhaps even go backwards. I can't judge their salvation, but i have to say i find it frustrating to see. A bad personal testimony does so much harm to Christianity. The world sees these bad examples and says we are all like that.
True. All we can do is pray for each other and pray that we are all receptive to Holy Spirit including the backsliders and those who hearts are hard because of the bad examples in Christendom.

Yes, we don't obey to be saved, we obey because we are saved. And because He loved us before we loved Him (1Jn4:19), and died for us while we were still sinners (Rom 5:8).
Yes.

Got it.
So it's more of a cultural identity law than a moral law.
Yes, in the New covenant.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
Claim:
1 out of 2 Christians worldwide is catholic
Truth:
No.
The catholic church refuses to let people renounce their catholicism.
There are untold nunbers of people who were baptised without their consent and are now Christian, atheist, Muslim, agnostic, new agers, satanists, etc. but they are STILL counted by the catholics as members.




The truth is, even if you were expressly and officially excommunicated by the church – a sanction called ferendae sententiae – you still wouldn’t be out. Because excommunication is just a punishment, intended to make you rethink your sinful ways. As such, it’s more like a suspension than an expulsion, the whole point being to get you back onto those straight and narrow Catholic tracks. Which means that, according to the church, even Luther and Henry the VIII were still Catholics. Just very, very bad ones.

The moral of this story is not that excommunication is widely misunderstood by the mainstream Catholic community (and Madonna). It’s that there’s actually no way of quitting the church. According to church doctrine, once you’ve been baptised, the bond cannot be broken.

So, why should we worry what the church thinks? They may regard you as theirs, but if you don’t go to church, what does it matter?

If you stop going to the gym, but retain your membership, you’re only hurting yourself, and your bank balance. By contrast, when you passively let the church count you as a member, you’re doing something more insidious. Because whenever the church exerts political influence, that influence is bolstered by the huge membership it claims – 1.3 billion Catholics worldwide. A number that’s enormously inflated by the fact that they’re counting everyone who’s ever been baptised. Even though, in the west, the vast majority of those are thoroughly lapsed.

So how do we push back? Excommunication may not be an option, but speaking up loudly, and actively distancing yourself from them, is. Don’t get married in a church, or send your kids to Catholic school, or have them baptised to please grandma.





www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/

In contrast with the unaffiliated, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses due to religious switching. Nearly a third of all U.S. adults (31.7%) were raised Catholic, and most of them continue to identify as Catholics today. But nearly 13% of all Americans are former Catholics – people who no longer identify with the faith despite having been raised in the Catholic Church. By comparison, there are far fewer converts to Catholicism; 2% of all U.S. adults now identify as Catholics after having been raised in another religion or without a religion. This means that there are more than six former Catholics for every convert to Catholicism. No other religious group analyzed in the survey has experienced anything close to this ratio of losses to gains via religious switching.



TLDR: the "official" numbers are not accurate, and catholicism has the highest ratio of people leaving to converting.
 

elsbet's cat ^. .^

Established
Joined
Mar 18, 2023
Messages
411
Claim: 1 out of 2 Christians worldwide is catholic
Truth: No.
The catholic church refuses to let people renounce their catholicism.
There are untold nunbers of people who were baptised without their consent and are now Christian, atheist, Muslim, agnostic, new agers, satanists, etc. but they are STILL counted by the catholics as members.
I'm not surprised.
But... I'm glad the numbers are dropping.
I've heard more than one person admit to being a recovering Catholic. The drawback is whether or not they know Catholicism is one of many 'alternatives' to authentic Christianity (by that, I mean the unadulterated biblical text). Difficult to communicate, sometimes... likely worthy of its own thread.

Anywho... as much as the Catholics would like to own everyone, I take comfort in the EXHORTATION found in Revelation 18, proclaimed at top volume (in my mind) ...

--> Come out of her, my people!


Charlton Heston style. ☺

I think that applies to every belief system falsely operating under the banner of Christianity.

* I know he's playing Moses here, but I needed an epic illustration. ♡
•​
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2022
Messages
2,264
I'm not surprised.
But... I'm glad the numbers are dropping.
I've heard more than one person admit to being a recovering Catholic. The drawback is whether or not they know Catholicism is one of many 'alternatives' to authentic Christianity (by that, I mean the unadulterated biblical text). Difficult to communicate, sometimes... likely worthy of its own thread.

Anywho... as much as the Catholics would like to own everyone, I take comfort in the EXHORTATION found in Revelation 18, proclaimed at top volume (in my mind) ...

--> Come out of her, my people!


Charlton Heston style. ☺

I think that applies to every belief system falsely operating under the banner of Christianity.

* I know he's playing Moses here, but I needed an epic illustration. ♡
•​
A phenomenon i've noticed is that articles, such as the first one i quoted and linked, tend to push a narrative that people have left/are leaving because they're too strict - if only they just allowed female preachers, abortions, same sex marriages etc.

I've seen this repeated throughout other sources countless times. If i were to speculate, i would say it is clear that the reason many people leave (because they are unbiblical) is purposely covered up.

Even a catholic article acknowledged people leave because they start reading the Bible, then tried to backtrack that it's really for other reasons.

Www.ncronline.org/news/parish/hidden-exodus-catholics-becoming-protestants

Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
...
They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key.
...
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching
Thought this part was interesting

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
 
Top