why Christians reject Roman Catholic church

[monkeylove]

@DavidSon

On Biblical Literalism:

​

“About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”​

Sir Issac Newton

That's why exegeses are important. Bible-thumping does not help.

 

[monkeylove]

What you(?) call "complete and utter nonsense" is actually a very well-written, logical, fact-based article.

Did the Roman Catholic church give us our Bible?

The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible. It was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament and Christians recognized the New Testament

carm.org

Obviously the RCC did not "choose" the Old Covenant, which was well-established centuries before the RCC even existed (the RCC didn't exist before the 4th century AD, regardless of what propaganda/lies they promote).

And, in reality, the RCC didn't "choose" the New Covenant material either. The RCC only chose what they decided would be promoted within their own organization, along with their lies and traditions that they were somehow in control of it.

It's understood you will continue to argue for and try to defend these very obvious RCC lies and made-up traditions, which you foolishly place ABOVE The Word of God/Scripture of Truth, as the article correctly points out. But that doesn't prove any of your false claims; it only proves you don't know what you're talking about.

Homosexual and paedophile priests, and a hierarchy covering these crimes up, along with the brazen idolatry, Mary worship and pagan holiday rituals should leave no doubt in anyone's mind that the RCC is satanic, which is why they and their followers are repeatedly condemned throughout Scripture.

Learn to accept the truth, for only the truth can set you free.

Actually, reformists excluded some works from the OT, and not only did the Church form the NT through various councils, as there were dozens of Gospels to consider, they even chose the number based on reasons beyond what is doctrinal, e.g, there are four winds, so there should be four Gospels.

The rest of your points are gibberish, like claims of Mary worship. Certainly another Bible-thumping ignoramus.

 

[monkeylove]

1,000+ Communist Priests Infiltrated the Catholic Church in America

Bella Dodd was a committed Stalinist, who worked to undermine democracy in America and orthodoxy in the Catholic Church. Dodd's charm and wit helped her succeed in a once-considered conspiracy theory

rumble.com

1,000+ Communist Priests Infiltrated the Catholic Church in America

Communist priests, pedophiles, etc. Nice try going off-topic. Go to the first message of this thread for details.

 

[monkeylove]

Men can declare whatever they want, if we see something else in scriptures then the right stance, the only viable stance, is to choose Holy scriptures above men's hype.


In fact Paul already was appealing to a sola scriptura approach

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"
1 Corinthians 15:3‭-‬4

I won't quote every verses reinforcing that stance but for sure it was what God intended since He prefered to give scriptures rather than traditions which Jesus would rebuke.


The problem from my perspective is that you didn't really get the real root of Christianity. The core identity of Christianity is that anyone can be close to God and it's certainly not reserved to religious elites wearing beautiful garments.

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus."
Acts 4:13

God doesn't care about outward appearance and in fact He proved He'd rather want humble things as Himself would come as human in Jesus.
I know this is totally abject to you, you'd rather think God doesn't need to come here and certainly would not accept this cross because He's Holy.

Indeed He's Holy but in this struggle between good and evil, God had to prove He is inherently good. In order to show He is inherently good, He had to prove He is inherently virtuous by forgiving people not deserving forgiveness and embracing humility although He could submit us against our will instead.

Pharisianism which represented religious traditions in the past are the anti-thesis of God's identity and I see now why Jesus was this severe toward them, because none of that represents God at all.

From what I remember, the Epistles were written before some of the other Gospels were being distributed, and other additions to the Bible, like the Revelations, would be written something like 50 years later. Even the MT that would be used for various translations today appeared centuries after. Before that, they would have had to rely on a Greek translation of the original OT that was long gone, and as fewer spoke common Greek, a translation in vulgar Latin.

On top of that, things like the number of Gospels to use involved arguments like the phenomena of four winds, with each Gospel containing variants because they had different audiences that were at that time still hostile to each other, like Jewish Christians and Romans.

That's why a Scriptures and even faith alone approach are illogical.

 

[monkeylove]

You are spouting the usual pro-Roman Catholic church rhetoric. The earliest church fathers taught faith was necessary for salvation, they didn't add the word ONLY because from what they say it **should** be obvious to anyone with reading comprehension. The RCC sees what it wants to see. It creates loopholes for its traditions and false doctrines that way.

The protestant and baptist churches all agree on core doctrines that the bible teaches and the RCC rejects.
They agree on the Gospel. They believe the Bible only. They believe in one Saviour, one Mediator.
Some different denominations are due to physical locations and immigration - over time differences develop like every other culture and people.
Some differences are relatively minor like the timing of the Rapture.
Some have been ridiculously trivial like colour of carpets or personality clashes. Blame that type of issue on human failings, but don't pretend that is a different religion altogether.

You must joking: there multiple Protestant Churches, fellowships, etc., and they don't even agree with each other.

 

[monkeylove]

In your interpretation what is the purpose of Christ's Church?

Evangelize, which is another reason why Biblical Christianity makes no sense.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There were dozens of Gospels, but many of them were written even way beyond the last book of the Bible, Revelations. But why Manly Hall? Why not Brant Pitre, and for balance, Bart Ehrman? And these are the youngest experts on the matter.

Your selection of authorities is revealing @monkeylove

 

[Lyfe]

Evangelize, which is another reason why Biblical Christianity makes no sense.

I'm confused. Can you clarify what you mean here?

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The constant splittint hairs over whether catholics "worship" as opposed to "venerate" Mary is besides the point. They elevate Mary to a position that is not indicated in the Bible. They claim shes is a mediator when the Bible says clearly Jesus is the only mediator 1Tim2:5

Their rebuttal : it's because they go by tradition. They tell us this over and over like we haven't heard it before.

Things that are not addressed (and i will not back down from this until i get an answer) - why was the date chosen to commemorate Mary the same as the date the pagans honored their false goddess diana?

Nemoralia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Nemoralia (also known as the Festival of Torches or Hecatean Ides) is a three-day festival originally celebrated by the ancient Romans on the Ides of August (August 13–15) in honor of the goddess Diana. Although the Nemoralia was originally celebrated at the Sanctuary of Diana at Lake Nemi, it soon became more widely celebrated. The Catholic Church may have adapted the Nemoralia as the Feast of the Assumption.

Nemoralia – Roman Republic | Respublica Romana

romanrepublic.org

The festival proved so popular that the Catholic Church chose 15 Aug. as the date of the Feast of the Assumption, the chief festival honoring Mary.

If Mary's death (later turned to "bodily assumption without dying") was at some point commemorated on January 18, why the change to mid August? Obviously she couldn't have died/been taken to heaven on 2 different days separated by half a year. WHY was August 15 chosen?

Mary’s Assumption | Simply Catholic

The sacred Tradition of the Church plays an important role in the daily celebration of our faith. Linked integrally with Scripture and the magisterium, the Tradition is God’s revelation and thus acts as a source

www.simplycatholic.com

A Gallic liturgy of the mid-sixth century is the first evidence of the celebration of the Assumption in the Western Church. This feast, held on Jan. 18, was called in a seventh-century Sacramentary the “Feast of Mary’s Assumption.” St. Gregory of Tours (d. c. 596), in his treatise “On the Glory of the Martyrs,” affirms Mary’s assumption: “The Lord bade the sacred body [of Mary] be borne aloft on a cloud and carried to paradise, where, reunited to the soul, and rejoicing with His elect, it enjoys the good things of eternity in unending bliss.”

Catholic books acknowledge that these "coincidences" are not in fact coincidences, but deliberate attempts to appease/include pagans. The gospel is not to compromise with pagans. This is proof that tradition went wrong and was corrupted by pagan influences.

I posted pictures of one such book in my response to the thread quoted below. Unfortunately screenshots dont seem to show up in quotes but theyre there in the original post if anyone wishes to read them. I may come back and edit them in at a later time.

Sources that claim to "explain Catholicism" basically admit many of the things we've mentioned in this thread.

View attachment 82926

"The church has used the title mediator for Mary..."

What do the scriptures say?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

One mediator, Jesus Christ. Not his mother.

"The gods and goddesses of ancient Greece and Rome were powerful archetypes im the minds of the people up through the first and second centuries. From the beginning of Catholicism, their characteristics were assimilated into Mary's story."

View attachment 82927
"Catholics believe Mary rules over death as the queen of heaven. This role came out of the Hellenistic mythology of Artemis (later called Diana by the Romans)"

View attachment 82928
"Mary's legends continued to grow, especially around the city of Ephesus... where the mother goddess was particularly popular... It was also in Ephesus that Paul encountered the crowd's cheering 'great is Artemis of Ephesus' as he attempted to preach. "


This is not from some kind of "conspiracy book". The authors are catholics, have taught at catholic universities for many years.

 

[A Freeman]

Actually, reformists excluded some works from the OT, and not only did the Church form the NT through various councils, as there were dozens of Gospels to consider, they even chose the number based on reasons beyond what is doctrinal, e.g, there are four winds, so there should be four Gospels.

The rest of your points are gibberish, like claims of Mary worship. Certainly another Bible-thumping ignoramus.

Isn't it time you stop monkeying around?

All you seem to be able to do is say "no, I'm right because I say so", before labeling the truth as "gibberish" and calling anyone sharing the truth with you a "Bible-thumping ignoramus".

The Hebrew title "Satan" means "the Opposer" in English. Anyone who says and does the exact opposite of what the Scriptures tell us, as both you and the RCC repeatedly do, is obviously working for Satan.

There are idolatrous graven images/statues of Mary in Roman Catholic churches, and for sale in Roman Catholic gift shops and online stores, which very clearly break the First and Most important Commandment (see Exodus 20:3-6).

The infamous and blasphemous prayers to Mary all Roman Catholics are taught to mock God, commonly referred to as "hail Marys", literally refer to Mary as both "holy" and as "the mother of God", both of which are lies. Father (God) is YHWH in Hebrew or, in English "I AM". The self-existent ONE.

Apparently, the no one in the RCC can count to one, or knows what that number means or they wouldn't be so easily conned into believing so many obvious lies, e.g. that Mary can be a mediator too, or that God can be divided into different parts and have a human mother, or that anyone other than God Himself (Father) is Holy, etc.

One God means One God.
One Father, Who is in heaven means One Father, Who is in heaven.
Father (God, not the pope) is The Holy One of Israel.
One Mediator between God and men means One Mediator between God and men.
One Teacher means One Teacher.
One High Priest means One High Priest.
One Good Shepherd means One Good Shepherd.

There is no room for Mary to magically become a second mediator, high-priest, etc. nor a mother to our self-existing (uncreated) God, so anyone who elevates Mary into such roles is obviously worshiping her, regardless of what they may nonsensically argue to the contrary.

ONE MEANS ONE, and anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

How can any of the claims of someone who cannot or will not learn to count to one be taken seriously?

 

[JFO2]

Isn't it time for you to stop monkeying around?

Isn't it time you stop monkeying around? All you seem to be able to do is say "no, I'm right because I say so", before labeling the truth as "gibberish" and calling anyone sharing the truth with you a "Bible-thumping ignoramus".

The Hebrew title "Satan" means "the Opposer" in English. Anyone who says and does the exact opposite of what the Scriptures tell us, as both you and the RCC repeatedly do, is obviously working for Satan.

There are idolatrous graven images/statues of Mary in Roman Catholic churches, and for sale in Roman Catholic gift shops and online stores, which very clearly break the First and Most important Commandment (see Exodus 20:3-6).

The infamous and blasphemous prayers to Mary all Roman Catholics are taught to mock God, commonly referred to as "hail Marys", literally refer to Mary as both "holy" and as "the mother of God", both of which are lies. Father (God) is YHWH in Hebrew or, in English "I AM". The self-existent ONE.

Apparently, the no one in the RCC can count to one, or knows what that number means or they wouldn't be so easily conned into believing so many obvious lies, e.g. that Mary can be a mediator too, or that God can be divided into different parts and have a human mother, or that anyone other than God Himself (Father) is Holy, etc.

One God means One God.
One Father, Who is in heaven means One Father, Who is in heaven.
Father (God, not the pope) is The Holy One of Israel.
One Mediator between God and men means One Mediator between God and men.
One Teacher means One Teacher.
One High Priest means One High Priest.
One Good Shepherd means One Good Shepherd.

There is no room for Mary to magically become a second mediator, high-priest, etc. nor a mother to our self-existing (uncreated) God, so anyone who elevates Mary into such roles is obviously worshiping her, regardless of what they may nonsensically argue to the contrary.

ONE MEANS ONE, and anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

How can any of the claims of someone who cannot or will not learn to count to one be taken seriously?

You may have mentioned it previously, but isn’t also Mary worship widely thought to be linked to the Babylonian / Pagan practice of Diana worship, too?

 

[A Freeman]

You may have mentioned it previously, but isn’t also Mary worship widely thought to be linked to the Babylonian / Pagan practice of Diana worship, too?

Thank-you. Agreed. Others here have mentioned that too. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

 

[Lyfe]

Is the Pope Catholic? | Beyond the Cover

Pope Francis’ ongoing “Synod on Synodality” is a “hostile takeover” of the Catholic Church, according to one of his cardinals. Another former Vatican official describes the pontiff as an “authoritaria

rumble.com

 

[monkeylove]

Your selection of authorities is revealing @monkeylove

Yes, they're not outdated.

 

[monkeylove]

I'm confused. Can you clarify what you mean here?

Evangelization involves more than just Bible-thumping.

 

[monkeylove]

The constant splittint hairs over whether catholics "worship" as opposed to "venerate" Mary is besides the point. They elevate Mary to a position that is not indicated in the Bible. They claim shes is a mediator when the Bible says clearly Jesus is the only mediator 1Tim2:5

Their rebuttal : it's because they go by tradition. They tell us this over and over like we haven't heard it before.

Things that are not addressed (and i will not back down from this until i get an answer) - why was the date chosen to commemorate Mary the same as the date the pagans honored their false goddess diana?

Nemoralia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Nemoralia – Roman Republic | Respublica Romana

romanrepublic.org

If Mary's death (later turned to "bodily assumption without dying") was at some point commemorated on January 18, why the change to mid August? Obviously she couldn't have died/been taken to heaven on 2 different days separated by half a year. WHY was August 15 chosen?

Mary’s Assumption | Simply Catholic

The sacred Tradition of the Church plays an important role in the daily celebration of our faith. Linked integrally with Scripture and the magisterium, the Tradition is God’s revelation and thus acts as a source

www.simplycatholic.com

Catholic books acknowledge that these "coincidences" are not in fact coincidences, but deliberate attempts to appease/include pagans. The gospel is not to compromise with pagans. This is proof that tradition went wrong and was corrupted by pagan influences.

I posted pictures of one such book in my response to the thread quoted below. Unfortunately screenshots dont seem to show up in quotes but theyre there in the original post if anyone wishes to read them. I may come back and edit them in at a later time.

There's no hair-splitting. Only an ignoramus will think that Catholics worship Mary.

Significant aspects of mainstream religions come from, encounter, and counter others, if not pagan views. Examples include the story of the Great Flood, the idea of a savior, Satan (which is actually a common noun meaning "advocate"), psalms which resemble prayers to Ra, a virgin birth, blood sacrifice, angels, demons, and more.

The Bible itself is an impressive combination of writings in different genres across multiple cultures (Hebrew, Egyptian, Sumerian, Greek, and Roman) and spanning over a thousand years, and Christianity itself involving combinations of Hebrew beliefs and Greek philosophies.

What some don't notice is that this forum involves especially that: studying the origins of various phenomena. Biblical Christianity, in contrast, puts all that aside in favor of a fundamentalist view of the world.

 

[monkeylove]

Isn't it time you stop monkeying around?

All you seem to be able to do is say "no, I'm right because I say so", before labeling the truth as "gibberish" and calling anyone sharing the truth with you a "Bible-thumping ignoramus".

The Hebrew title "Satan" means "the Opposer" in English. Anyone who says and does the exact opposite of what the Scriptures tell us, as both you and the RCC repeatedly do, is obviously working for Satan.

There are idolatrous graven images/statues of Mary in Roman Catholic churches, and for sale in Roman Catholic gift shops and online stores, which very clearly break the First and Most important Commandment (see Exodus 20:3-6).

The infamous and blasphemous prayers to Mary all Roman Catholics are taught to mock God, commonly referred to as "hail Marys", literally refer to Mary as both "holy" and as "the mother of God", both of which are lies. Father (God) is YHWH in Hebrew or, in English "I AM". The self-existent ONE.

Apparently, the no one in the RCC can count to one, or knows what that number means or they wouldn't be so easily conned into believing so many obvious lies, e.g. that Mary can be a mediator too, or that God can be divided into different parts and have a human mother, or that anyone other than God Himself (Father) is Holy, etc.

One God means One God.
One Father, Who is in heaven means One Father, Who is in heaven.
Father (God, not the pope) is The Holy One of Israel.
One Mediator between God and men means One Mediator between God and men.
One Teacher means One Teacher.
One High Priest means One High Priest.
One Good Shepherd means One Good Shepherd.

There is no room for Mary to magically become a second mediator, high-priest, etc. nor a mother to our self-existing (uncreated) God, so anyone who elevates Mary into such roles is obviously worshiping her, regardless of what they may nonsensically argue to the contrary.

ONE MEANS ONE, and anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

How can any of the claims of someone who cannot or will not learn to count to one be taken seriously?

"Satan" is a common noun and has multiple meanings, including "obstacle," "advocate," and even "agent." That's why it's used different ways in Scriptures. Read Pagels for more details.

Mary is seen as a mediator, together with others, and is not worshipped.

Those who visit Vigilant Citizen should know all of these things. Bible thumpers don't.

 

[monkeylove]

Thank-you. Agreed. Others here have mentioned that too. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

LOL. I suppose that's also found in the same Bible.

Christianity itself is linked to multiple cultures, including Babylonian! Where do you think the idea of angels came from?

 

[Lyfe]

Evangelization involves more than just Bible-thumping.

I fail to remember how we moved to the topic of evangelism, but since you brought it up... How should one evangelize?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I fail to remember how we moved to the topic of evangelism, but since you brought it up... How should one evangelize?

That same question occurs to me…

That's why exegeses are important. Bible-thumping does not help.

I am indebted to you for making my ears prick up to the name Bart Ehrman @monkeylove as it led me to one of the best talks I have heard in a long time.

It turns out Nabeel had Bart as one of his professors, and he had some very interesting insights into his thought.

As for the claims of @A Freeman I found it very interesting hearing the perspective of an ex-Muslim on the key claims of Christianity. Rather than the Bible and the Qur’an being in convergence (when correctly understood) they actually diverge on the key doctrines of salvation.