Did Jesus really sacrifice himself for your sins?

[Alanantic]

Obviously, you do. For someone who claims to be God, immortal, yet he can't fulfil a simple request of mine, of course, you're delusional.
You're not a messenger either. Jesus and Muhammad warned us about false teachers and messengers.

Also, you said that physical harm is an illusion. I bet you wouldn't say that after a good slap. Your cheek would turn red in pain for days. Hell, you wouldn't even be able to talk properly for days, too.

I'm not trying to offend you.

No offense here, too. I certainly may have no idea what I'm talking about.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- Mike Tyson

 

[AdjeYen]

No offense here, too. I certainly may have no idea what I'm talking about.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- Mike Tyson

Eh, see? Now you're talking. You're more likeable, haha. And now we can have some kind of mutual agreement here.
Mike Tyson's quote proves that I was right in my previous messages.

No worries, I am not forcing you to agree with me. I don't do that, and I believe it is extremely rude and forbidden from a religious and non-religious perspective to force someone to accept your opinion just because your beliefs/understanding don't sit well with his or similar.

I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion, but I'm not obligated to respect someone else's opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you can't expect me to believe everything is an illusion. That's all I'm trying to say here.
You can't say that physical harm is an illusion either because all your beliefs, everything you believed in, would disappear in seconds after a good slap or anything that causes you harm, physically, emotionally etc. You get the idea.

I had to react or maybe try to shed some light on you by proving you wrong. That's why I had to bring up the "slapping someone" statement, hence why I said, "I hope I'm not offending you."

Would you say Hitler killing millions of Jews was an illusion too? What about the covid-19 horrible events, would you also say the world pandemic was an illusion?
It's not an illusion. It was a reality. These things took place.
Buddha was also real. Jesus was as real as it gets etc.

 

[Alanantic]

Eh, see? Now you're talking. You're more likeable, haha. And now we can have some kind of mutual agreement here.
Mike Tyson's quote proves that I was right in my previous messages.

No worries, I am not forcing you to agree with me. I don't do that, and I believe it is extremely rude and forbidden from a religious and non-religious perspective to force someone to accept your opinion just because your beliefs/understanding don't sit well with his or similar.

I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion, but I'm not obligated to respect someone else's opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you can't expect me to believe everything is an illusion. That's all I'm trying to say here.
You can't say that physical harm is an illusion either because all your beliefs, everything you believed in, would disappear in seconds after a good slap or anything that causes you harm, physically, emotionally etc. You get the idea.

I had to react or maybe try to shed some light on you by proving you wrong. That's why I had to bring up the "slapping someone" statement, hence why I said, "I hope I'm not offending you."

Would you say Hitler killing millions of Jews was an illusion too? What about the covid-19 horrible events, would you also say the world pandemic was an illusion?
It's not an illusion. It was a reality. These things took place.
Buddha was also real. Jesus was as real as it gets etc.

Hey, put a gun to my head and I'll praise any lord you want! I'm only human. Most people here just ignore me. Most of what I say I consider educated guesses at best, fanciful leaps in logic at worst. You put quite the guard up in your responses. I admired that. Most here won't have a battle of wits, but just want to volley scripture back and forth. I've little time for them. "Lyfe" came at me hard. Ha! I had to answer questions I wasn't prepared for! Keeps my brain working, though.

 

[DavidSon]

It's commonplace in the East.

The Middle East too. As Aspiring was pointing out their mystics have just as much of a connection to the deeper questions of existence and the Now. Don't be fooled by the childlike corporealist Judeo-Christians you read online. Within Islam there's a vital, living tradition of inquiry and intuitive reflection upon the Absolute Reality. The Mutazilla, Ashari, Shia, Sufi, etc. were supreme philosophers of the day who developed their own expression of Divine Truth. This is a passage from Muhammad's cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib which shows the humility and thoughtfulness of the earliest Muslims attempting to describe the magnificence of ALLAH:

"Praise belongs to God, who did not originate from anything, nor did He bring what exists into being from anything. His beginninglessness is attested to by the temporality (huduth) of things, His power by the impotence with which He has branded them, and His everlastingness (dawam) by the annihilation (fana') which He has forced upon them. No place is empty of Him that He might be perceived through localization (ayniyyah), no object (shabah) is like Him that He might be described by quality (kayfiyyah), nor is He absent from anything that He might be known through situation (haythiyyah)."

"He is distinct (muba'in) in attributes from all that He has originated, inaccessible to perception because of the changing essences He has created (in things), and outside of all domination (tasarruf) by changing states (halat) because of grandeur and tremendousness. Forbidden is His delimitation (tahdid) to the penetrating acumen of sagacities, His description (takyif) to the piercing profundities of thought and His representation (taswir) to the searching probes of insight."

"Because of His tremendousness places encompass Him not, because of His majesty measures guage Him not, and because of His grandeur standards judge Him not. Impossible is it for imaginations (awham) to fathom Him, understandings (afham) to comprehend Him or minds (adhhan) to imagine Him. Powers of reason (uqul) with lofty aspiration despair of contriving to comprehend Him, oceans of knowledge run dry without alluding to Him in depth, and the subtleties of disputants fall from loftiness to pettiness in describing His power."

"He is One (wahid), not in terms of number (adad); Everlasting (da'im), without duration (amad); Standing (qa'im), without supports (umud). He is not of a kind (jins) that (other) kinds should be on a par with Him, nor an object that objects should be similar to Him, nor like things that attributes should apply to Him. Powers of reason go astray in the waves of the current of perceiving Him, imaginations are bewildered at encompassing the mention of His beginninglessness, understandings are held back from becoming conscious of the description of His power, and minds are drowned in the depths of the heavens of His kingdom (malakut)."

 

[Alanantic]

The Middle East too. As Aspiring was pointing out their mystics have just as much of a connection to the deeper questions of existence and the Now. Don't be fooled by the childlike corporealist Judeo-Christians you read online. Within Islam there's a vital, living tradition of inquiry and intuitive reflection upon the Absolute Reality. The Mutazilla, Ashari, Shia, Sufi, etc. were supreme philosophers of the day who developed their own expression of Divine Truth. This is a passage from Muhammad's cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib which shows the humility and thoughtfulness of the earliest Muslims attempting to describe the magnificence of ALLAH:

"Praise belongs to God, who did not originate from anything, nor did He bring what exists into being from anything. His beginninglessness is attested to by the temporality (huduth) of things, His power by the impotence with which He has branded them, and His everlastingness (dawam) by the annihilation (fana') which He has forced upon them. No place is empty of Him that He might be perceived through localization (ayniyyah), no object (shabah) is like Him that He might be described by quality (kayfiyyah), nor is He absent from anything that He might be known through situation (haythiyyah)."

"He is distinct (muba'in) in attributes from all that He has originated, inaccessible to perception because of the changing essences He has created (in things), and outside of all domination (tasarruf) by changing states (halat) because of grandeur and tremendousness. Forbidden is His delimitation (tahdid) to the penetrating acumen of sagacities, His description (takyif) to the piercing profundities of thought and His representation (taswir) to the searching probes of insight."

"Because of His tremendousness places encompass Him not, because of His majesty measures guage Him not, and because of His grandeur standards judge Him not. Impossible is it for imaginations (awham) to fathom Him, understandings (afham) to comprehend Him or minds (adhhan) to imagine Him. Powers of reason (uqul) with lofty aspiration despair of contriving to comprehend Him, oceans of knowledge run dry without alluding to Him in depth, and the subtleties of disputants fall from loftiness to pettiness in describing His power."

"He is One (wahid), not in terms of number (adad); Everlasting (da'im), without duration (amad); Standing (qa'im), without supports (umud). He is not of a kind (jins) that (other) kinds should be on a par with Him, nor an object that objects should be similar to Him, nor like things that attributes should apply to Him. Powers of reason go astray in the waves of the current of perceiving Him, imaginations are bewildered at encompassing the mention of His beginninglessness, understandings are held back from becoming conscious of the description of His power, and minds are drowned in the depths of the heavens of His kingdom (malakut)."

Good point! That sounded a lot like the Vedas. There's an 'esoteric' aspect in all religions. I've got a few books on Sufism I like ("Wisdom of the Idiots", etc.). But it does seem more occluded in Western traditions. I'm sure many Catholic saints had a more mystical view than the church, itself.

 

[DavidSon]

Good point! That sounded a lot like the Vedas. There's an 'esoteric' aspect in all religions. I've got a few books on Sufism I like ("Wisdom of the Idiots", etc.). But it does seem more occluded in Western traditions. I'm sure many Catholic saints had a more mystical view than the church, itself.

There are many books and writings on the subject but yes one could say there's always been a divide between those who interpret religious concepts as literal/exoteric versus those who intuit religion through a more symbolic/esoteric lens. As I think you've said, it's the known prophets who express this grand connection to the All while many times their students are fumbling through the dark, debating legal issues and mythology without really experiencing the essence of reality.

The unfortunate fact of this age is that the vast majority exist in the more shallow, materialist, literal understanding of the mystery of life. Their religion is an outer shell woven into their egoistic personality, never piercing through to the heart and consciousness- which brings the type of transformation the sages in all times have extolled. Oh well maybe the next 1000 years will be better.

 

[Artful Revealer]

he didn’t stay dead

You find this pathetic ... how exactly?

Cause I was under the impression this feat is generally considered miraculous.

 

[Artful Revealer]

If Jesus died for my sins, then that means I can do whatever I want, if we go by that logic because I hear so many Christians go: "Well, you should pray to Jesus and be more thankful because he died for YOUR sins". Ah, really? Did he? That's good to know.
I'm just going to continue doing sins and put it on him anyway. Sounds about fair.

So you think you can fool God? Not behave in the way of Christ and get a pass nonetheless from Him who sees everything?

 

[free2018]

I agree it's sad. Most of "Christian" "faith" is imaginary, fanatical, emotional theories that have no relationship to the Jewish Essene's of the 1st century, let alone the traditional understanding of the Afro-Semitic speaking people of the region where the culture originated.

What we know as Christianity is the same old story of colonizers dominating a narrative, stealing identities, masquerading as disciples and "prophets". Atonement theology and every other degree of christology was propagated by the Herodian Pharisee Saul of Tarsus and it's astonishing how widely his fantastical imagination was embraced by Greco-Roman influenced Europeans.

Here we are today, people still living in their invented fake imaginations and theologies about "Christ". No wonder Christianity as a religion is dying out while Islam flourishes. One religion is a complicated mess of Greek philosophy and mythology, dosed with flasks of spoiled wine. The other is the wisdom of Tawhid- ONENESS. It's much more real to touch the soil and feel the sunlight, giving thanks to the ALL, than every contrived theory shoved in our faces.

That’s only because most Christians do not read their Bibles and follow dogma and idol worship.

 

[free2018]

He didn’t sacrifice himself really though did he? I mean, according to Christians - he didn’t stay dead. He only really sacrificed his weekend for your sins.

Christian theology is kinda pathetic if you ask me.

All it is is praying to the Father and following his son— not complicated.

 

[Artful Revealer]

the bible is full of blood sacrifices human and animals....blood everywhere ...

More or less blood than on Muhammad's sword?

 

[Artful Revealer]

The Middle East too. As Aspiring was pointing out their mystics have just as much of a connection to the deeper questions of existence and the Now. Don't be fooled by the childlike corporealist Judeo-Christians you read online. Within Islam there's a vital, living tradition of inquiry and intuitive reflection upon the Absolute Reality. The Mutazilla, Ashari, Shia, Sufi, etc. were supreme philosophers of the day who developed their own expression of Divine Truth. This is a passage from Muhammad's cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib which shows the humility and thoughtfulness of the earliest Muslims attempting to describe the magnificence of ALLAH:

"Praise belongs to God, who did not originate from anything, nor did He bring what exists into being from anything. His beginninglessness is attested to by the temporality (huduth) of things, His power by the impotence with which He has branded them, and His everlastingness (dawam) by the annihilation (fana') which He has forced upon them. No place is empty of Him that He might be perceived through localization (ayniyyah), no object (shabah) is like Him that He might be described by quality (kayfiyyah), nor is He absent from anything that He might be known through situation (haythiyyah)."

"He is distinct (muba'in) in attributes from all that He has originated, inaccessible to perception because of the changing essences He has created (in things), and outside of all domination (tasarruf) by changing states (halat) because of grandeur and tremendousness. Forbidden is His delimitation (tahdid) to the penetrating acumen of sagacities, His description (takyif) to the piercing profundities of thought and His representation (taswir) to the searching probes of insight."

"Because of His tremendousness places encompass Him not, because of His majesty measures guage Him not, and because of His grandeur standards judge Him not. Impossible is it for imaginations (awham) to fathom Him, understandings (afham) to comprehend Him or minds (adhhan) to imagine Him. Powers of reason (uqul) with lofty aspiration despair of contriving to comprehend Him, oceans of knowledge run dry without alluding to Him in depth, and the subtleties of disputants fall from loftiness to pettiness in describing His power."

"He is One (wahid), not in terms of number (adad); Everlasting (da'im), without duration (amad); Standing (qa'im), without supports (umud). He is not of a kind (jins) that (other) kinds should be on a par with Him, nor an object that objects should be similar to Him, nor like things that attributes should apply to Him. Powers of reason go astray in the waves of the current of perceiving Him, imaginations are bewildered at encompassing the mention of His beginninglessness, understandings are held back from becoming conscious of the description of His power, and minds are drowned in the depths of the heavens of His kingdom (malakut)."

Beautiful.

The child of Islam and Christian gnosis.

The Tripartite Tractate

Not only is he without end - He is immortal for this reason, that he is unbegotten - but he is also invariable in his eternal existence, in his identity, in that by which he is established, and in that by which he is great. Neither will he remove himself from that by which he is, nor will anyone else force him to produce an end which he has not ever desired. He has not had anyone who initiated his own existence. Thus, he is himself unchanged, and no one else can remove him from his existence and his identity, that in which he is, and his greatness, so that he cannot be grasped; nor is it possible for anyone else to change him into a different form, or to reduce him, or alter him or diminish him, - since this is so in the fullest sense of the truth - who is the unalterable, immutable one, with immutability clothing him.

Not only is he the one called "without a beginning" and "without an end," because he is unbegotten and immortal; but just as he has no beginning and no end as he is, he is unattainable in his greatness, inscrutable in his wisdom, incomprehensible in his power, and unfathomable in his sweetness.

In the proper sense, he alone - the good, the unbegotten Father, and the complete perfect one - is the one filled with all his offspring, and with every virtue, and with everything of value. And he has more, that is, lack of any malice, in order that it may be discovered that whoever has anything is indebted to him, because he gives it, being himself unreachable and unwearied by that which he gives, since he is wealthy in the gifts which he bestows, and at rest in the favors which he grants.

He is of such a kind and form and great magnitude that no one else has been with him from the beginning; nor is there a place in which he is, or from which he has come forth, or into which he will go; nor is there a primordial form, which he uses as a model as he works; nor is there any difficulty which accompanies him in what he does; nor is there any material which is at his disposal, from which <he> creates what he creates; nor any substance within him from which he begets what he begets; nor a co-worker with him, working with him on the things at which he works. To say anything of this sort is ignorant. Rather, (one should speak of him) as good, faultless, perfect, complete, being himself the Totality.


Although, where is this passage from Ali from?

 

[AdjeYen]

So you think you can fool God? Not behave in the way of Christ and get a pass nonetheless from Him who sees everything?

I didn't say that, it just makes no sense that he died for our sins. It's not fair to say that anyone should die for your or mine sins either. It will never make sense.
You're responsible for your own sins, no one else but you, lad.

 

[AdjeYen]

All it is is praying to the Father and following his son— not complicated.

Don't you Christians have more followers than just Jesus?
How come most of you Christian people never mention Moses, Noah, Abraham, Solomon etc, what about Adam, the first man? God's first creation?
If Jesus is God's son, what is Adam to God then? Just a creation or a "son" too, just like Jesus?

 

[free2018]

Don't you Christians have more followers than just Jesus?
How come most of you Christian people never mention Moses, Noah, Abraham, Solomon etc, what about Adam, the first man? God's first creation?
If Jesus is God's son, what is Adam to God then? Just a creation or a "son" too, just like Jesus?

You mentioned a lot of great men.

It’s called Christianity because what binds the followers of Yeshua is following Yeshua. Not trying to be funny.

The law to a certain extent is done away …

 

[Artful Revealer]

I didn't say that, it just makes no sense that he died for our sins. It's not fair to say that anyone should die for your or mine sins either. It will never make sense.
You're responsible for your own sins, no one else but you, lad.

What is sin according to you?

 

[Artful Revealer]

what about Adam, the first man? God's first creation?
If Jesus is God's son, what is Adam to God then? Just a creation or a "son" too, just like Jesus?

They can be considered identical. Both are the Primordial (/primal /primeval /perfect /original) Man, depending on which interpretation one follows; and the image of God. Adam as portrayed in Genesis is an allegory (that includes Noah and Abraham), which was the dominant interpretation in Christianity until the rise of Protestantism, describing the evolution of Man from his original to his fallen status, spiritually; Adam being Man as God intended, in His image. Jesus Christ is historical. In simpler though perhaps imprecise terms, one could think of it as Adam being God's mental blueprint of the Perfect Man, Jesus Christ being its manifestation in our world. The invisible image and the visible.

Trying to synthesize the historical perspectives is a difficult excercise. Regardless, this isn't something one needs to break his head over in search for salvation.

 

[Lyfe]

Think about it this way. The original converts we're willing to leave their families, endure horrific floggings, and spend their existence in prison only to die their for what they heard and believed in. They were so convinced of the resurrection and that Jesus was The Son Of God that they ultimately subjected themselves to all these things.

This is something to really think about...

It doesn't make any sense unless Jesus performed the miracles signs and wonders that the word of God says he did. It doesn't make sense unless he did the impossible and rose from the dead proving himself to be both The Son Of Man and God.

 

[DavidSon]

Although, where is this passage from Ali from?

It's from hadith. I tried to identify it through the footnotes but am unable to ATM. The book I copied it from is here, with a list of sources in the preface:

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-anthology-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-tabatabai

The Tractate you posted starts out nicely enough, celebrating the universal Totality, but man it goes off the rails quickly. There's little comparison to the soundness of the Aristotelian(?) based Islamic preoccupation with the theme of Essence vs Attributes of the One. Even in their description of God in the TT you linked there's still a touch of anthropomorphism, these emotionally charged concepts such as father and son. Already by the 3rd section a person like myself is shocked at the to read such imaginative declarations:

Just as the Father exists in the proper sense, the one before whom there was no one else, and the one apart from whom there is no other unbegotten one, so too the Son exists in the proper sense, the one before whom there was no other, and after whom no other son exists. Therefore, he is a firstborn and an only Son, "firstborn" because no one exists before him and "only Son" because no one is after him.

...Not only did the Son exist from the beginning, but the Church, too, existed from the beginning. Now, he who thinks that the discovery that the Son is an only son opposes the statement (about the Church) because of the mysterious quality of the matter, it is not so. For just as the Father is a unity, and has revealed himself as Father for him alone, so too the Son was found to be a brother to himself alone, in virtue of the fact that he is unbegotten and without beginning. He wonders at himself, along with the Father, and he gives him(self) glory and honor and love. Furthermore, he too is the one whom he conceives of as Son, in accordance with the dispositions: "without beginning" and "without end." Thus is the matter something which is fixed. Being innumerable and illimitable, his offspring are indivisible. Those which exist have come forth from the Son and the Father like kisses, because of the multitude of some who kiss one another with a good, insatiable thought, the kiss being a unity, although it involves many kisses. This is to say, it is the Church consisting of many men that existed before the aeons, which is called, in the proper sense, "the aeons of the aeons." This is the nature of the holy imperishable spirits, upon which the Son rests, since it is his essence, just as the Father rests upon the Son.

Seriously? We're expected to ponder some guy's dreams and feel illuminated? This type of stuff about the Son, the Logos, Aenons and Archons- I add it to my list of other forced Christian doctrines/theories like Atonement theology. Maybe it's why small bands like the Valentinians were wiped out. I guess as I grow older Jewish cosmonology has less and less meaning to the levels of awareness I'm experiencing.

It's seems obvious that Islam arose as a refutation of Rabbinical Judaism and Byzantine Christianity. It was a natural and necessary correction that took over the minds of people in the region. The tales of Adam and Moses were kept alive but with a consistent, simplified message of understanding. There's always debate between philosophers and jurists but the proof of Islam's supremacy is the Muslim adherence to regular prayer, fasting, and charity- it's that simple. Christian doctrine is so far out... common people try to follow along and make it real in their own lives but the foundation is so unbelievable that it inevitably falls away.

 

[A Freeman]

The Koran/Quran teaches that Jesus is The Superior Example that those with faith follow (Sura 3:55), and confirms both The Law and the Gospel (Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7), offering assurance that the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran/Quran have been carefully guarded to relieve any doubt of their veracity (Sura 5:51, 15:9-10, 32:23).

The Koran/Quran condemns the sira, the hadith and the organized religion known as "Islam" (Sura 5:4, 6:159), and anyone who constructs or attends any mosque (Sura 9:107-111), just as the Old Covenant and New Covenant do with all man-made temples (churches, synagogues, etc. - Acts 7:48, 17:24).

Further, the Koran/Quran, when properly translated and understood, confirms the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus (Sura 4:157-159, 6:122, 19:33-34). How could it not when it plainly states it was sent to confirm the Scriptures that came before it?

Anyone who actually reads and studies The Law, as the Koran/Quran COMMANDS, will immediately see why God allowed substitute animal sacrifice to atone for one's sins. If God had not done that, He would have been left with no other option than to destroy the children of Israel, because the penalty for sinning/breaking His Law is DEATH (Deut. 28, 30:15-20). Substitute animal sacrifice in The Law also foreshadowed "self" sacrifice, which is sacrificing the human animal every day, by keeping its evil, selfish desires in check, exactly as is taught throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran/Quran (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:26-27, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162, Sura 92:18-21).

The Ultimate Example of "self" sacrifice is Jesus (John 14:6, Sura 3:55), the human son born of the virgin Mary, that Christ incarnated 2000 years ago to become the human+Being known as Jesus+Christ (John 1:14). Jesus was only the vehicle (flesh and blood human animal body) used to bring God's Message of Truth (John 7:16-17), just as all of the Prophets and Messengers sent by God have done (Matt. 21:31-46); however the Example Jesus set is clearly superior to all others, exactly as it says in the Koran/Quran (Sura 3:55, 43:57). Only those who have no faith (unbelievers) argue against these facts.

Christ, the immortal spiritual-Being and Firstborn Son of God (Rom. 8:28-29, Col. 1:12-15, Rev. 3:14) that was incarnated inside of Jesus, has been anointed by God Himself to be our Lord and King over all believers. Those who reject Christ as their Lord and King do not have any faith (Sura 43:57-61), regardless of how pious they may outwardly appear to others (which is the only reason why anyone goes to a synagogue, church, mosque, temple, etc. -- Matt. 6:5-8, Sura 4:142, 7:55, 9:107-111, 33:33, 107:5-6).

Anyone who believes the Word of God, found in all three parts of The Book (Bible), i.e. the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran/Quran, will immediately recognize the reason why we needed "the Lamb of God" to be sacrificed for our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25) AND to set the correct example for all true believers to follow. We all have the opportunity to turn from our selfish, evil/sinful/criminal ways (Ezekiel 18) by returning to God and His Law (Mal. 4, Sura 6:153-157), and those who do so will be redeemed from the Earth (Rev. 14:1-4, Sura 7:157-158). But it should be self-evident that the ONLY reason we are in the position to have that opportunity is because God's Anointed One was sacrificed to pay for our PAST sins (Rom. 6:23, Sura 17:17-19). Without that sacrifice, none of us would be here to discuss these things, much less still have the opportunity to truly repent (stop sinning) and atone for what we have done at this late-hour.