Rapture - For or Against

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
Hello,

I'm doing a bit of research for an article. I'm hoping to lean on the help of many of you here. Those of you so inclined, would you be so kind as to post all the scriptures that you believe support the rapture, as well as those of you who do not believe and have supporting scripture to support your non belief?

Much appreciated.

Jack
 

llleopard

Established
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Messages
409
Wow you're ambitious. I don't think The Rapture is a thing. I believe in the 2 resurrections 1 Thess 4:16,1 Cor 15:52, Rev 20:11 and the manifestation of the sons of God Roman's 8:19. To me the whole Bible supports the Kingdom, not the rapture.
 

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,841
Hello,

I'm doing a bit of research for an article. I'm hoping to lean on the help of many of you here. Those of you so inclined, would you be so kind as to post all the scriptures that you believe support the rapture, as well as those of you who do not believe and have supporting scripture to support your non belief?

Much appreciated.

Jack
I believe in the second coming of Christ as written of in the entire Bible in both Testaments. The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church (God's people) from around the world. It is the grand climax of the gospel. Jesus said, "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know” (John 14:2-4). Christ’s second coming is a promise He made to His people. It will be the triumphant return of a King. Christ’s second return will be the climax to our story on earth as it is. It is not the end, but the beginning of how life was meant to be all along. With Christ’s coming, our existence will be perfect and complete.

The Bible tells us that Christ's second coming will be:

His second coming will be visible and literal to every living person in the world (Matthew 24:30). Jesus also compared it to the visibility of lightning except this will be on a much bigger scale (Matthew 24:27). After His resurrection, He ascended in a cloud, two angels assured the disciples that His return will be as literal as His departure, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11). Revelation 1:7 says, "...and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him." This is important because of the end time deceptions Jesus warned against in Matthew 24.

Biblically there is no evidence at all that shows a secret or invisible coming of Christ that will be experienced by only those who are faithful to Him.

Everyone will hear Him. It will be loud.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
says, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

He will come and be seen in the clouds of heaven
, not appear somewhere on earth (Mark 14:62, Revelation 1:7).

He will come with power and great glory.
"Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory"
(Mark 13:26).

He will come with all His angels.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory”
(Matthew 25:31).

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works" (Matthew 16:27).

No one knows the day or hour.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only"
(Matthew 24:36).

At Jesus’ second coming the righteous dead will be raised to life and taken up to heaven along with the righteous who are still alive on the earth, they will be given perfect and immortal bodies, and will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and will forever be with Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51–53, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Philippians 3:20-21, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”

Note:
Jesus does not touch the earth at His second coming. The saints meet Him “in the air.” So God’s people won’t be fooled by any report that says Christ is in, for instance, London, New York, Moscow, or anywhere else on the earth. False christs will appear on the earth and do miracles (Matthew 24:23-27), but Jesus will remain in the clouds above the earth at His second coming.

I believe that most end time prophecy has been fulfilled plus together with the present condition of the world means that Christ’s coming is near. Because the time of that event has not been revealed, the Bible tells us to be ready at all times.
 
Last edited:

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
So, I found this when doing some research into what was meant by "thief in the night"


This is the URL that pops up and in it the author makes his distinction between the rapture pre-tribulation (I think) and the
second coming:


The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).


For Further Study
Three Views on the Rapture by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., ed. More insights from your Bible study - Get Started with Logos Bible Software for Free!

Related Articles
When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation? What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Will babies and young children be taken in the Rapture? What is the concept of a secret rapture? Will there be a partial rapture?


------------------------
I just want to say I do not have an opinion on this, at this time, I'm really mostly interested in other Christians opinions and how they use scripture to back it up, or not.

Thanks for contributing.
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
7,324
The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).
Hebrews 9:27-28
"Just as man is destined to die once and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him"

So either you believe what that person wrote OR believe the inspiration written down by Paul...that there are only two advents.

I just want the Rapturists to stop being intellectually dishonest and maintain consistency in what they believe. In the quote above, apparently Christ's appearances will total up to 3**, so why continue to say "Second Coming" when they can just as easily trash Inspiration written down by Paul and say it is a "Third Coming/Third Advent"? We are in 2+2=5 territory here. Call things as they are if you genuinely believe them. The last sentence of that verse can just as easily be tweaked to accomodate the rapture, if we are to buy what gotquestions is selling: "He will appear a third time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation...."

**(1st advent->born as a human, 2nd advent->appears in the sky to rapture away the saints secretly, 3rd advent->appears again in descent on Mt. Olives)
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,647
I believe in a pre-trib rapture @Jackfists

For those who I care about who don’t believe, I wish it was mid-trib or pre-wrath, but my research into it indicates otherwise.

To take a single verse that “proves” it feels like brandishing a single jigsaw piece and announcing “you see!”.

I think this was the most thorough treatment of the subject I have been through so far…


*part of a longer playlist…

 
Last edited:

chaco99

Rookie
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
51
Hello,

I'm doing a bit of research for an article. I'm hoping to lean on the help of many of you here. Those of you so inclined, would you be so kind as to post all the scriptures that you believe support the rapture, as well as those of you who do not believe and have supporting scripture to support your non belief?

Much appreciated.

Jack

I'm not sure about the future existence of a rapture. Who is John anyway? John is not Jesus. Jesus didn't say anything about the rapture..
And who is Jesus? a jew... can we trust in him? hmmm , I'm not so sure.

BUT... if eventually, we have to experience the rapture...I'm not agree!! this should be a choice and not a RAPTURE.
Do I want to be judge? and be judge by who? and what about the system of calification? is it fair?

Also, I don't think is fair... only 144.000 persons will go to "heaven" and we are almost 7 billions of people!!
I can understand that maybe only 144.000 persons are truly pure in their hearts...and they deserve go to "heaven"... and the others millions are just average sinners...
BUT STILL , the number of people that will go to "heaven" is very small... it's not fair.

I'm only agree about the idea of the evolution of the human kind... go to a superior level or astral ...
 
Last edited:

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
Ok thanks for your opinions.

I'm looking for specific scriptures believers will use to support a belief in or not in - a rapture.

Does anyone else want to offer up scripture to confirm either

a) their belief in a rapture
b) their belief that there will not be one
 

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
Hebrews 9:27-28
"Just as man is destined to die once and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him"

So either you believe what that person wrote OR believe the inspiration written down by Paul...that there are only two advents.

I just want the Rapturists to stop being intellectually dishonest and maintain consistency in what they believe. In the quote above, apparently Christ's appearances will total up to 3**, so why continue to say "Second Coming" when they can just as easily trash Inspiration written down by Paul and say it is a "Third Coming/Third Advent"? We are in 2+2=5 territory here. Call things as they are if you genuinely believe them. The last sentence of that verse can just as easily be tweaked to accomodate the rapture, if we are to buy what gotquestions is selling: "He will appear a third time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation...."

**(1st advent->born as a human, 2nd advent->appears in the sky to rapture away the saints secretly, 3rd advent->appears again in descent on Mt. Olives)
It's not my quote. I presented a link I came across while researching the meaning of "thief in the night". I wasn't asking for a debate. I don't have a fully formed opinion on whether a Rapture is indicated or not, ergo I asked for those who believe it is to present the scriptures they thought supported it, and also those who don't believe to present there's.

The opinions are fine, I can't stop them, nor could I stop a debate from breaking out if one did, but please follow along with the OP :)

That said,

Second coming couldn't mean AN actual coming, as in coming down to Earth specifically? It would be reasonable to conclude that this is an accurate intepretation.

If a rapture is distinct from a 2nd coming because of the "meeting in the air" with believers then it could fit the definition of not being an "actual coming"

Just food for though.

Anyway, to repeat, I'm doing research on what sciptures support and what do not, the idea of the rapture. So any and all submissions are welcome.
 
Last edited:

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
I believe in a pre-trib rapture @Jackfists

For those who I care about who don’t believe, I wish it was mid-trib or pre-wrath, but my research into it indicates otherwise.

To take a single verse that “proves” it feels like brandishing a single jigsaw piece and announcing “you see!”.

I think this was the most thorough treatment of the subject I have been through so far…


*part of a longer playlist…


It doesn't have to be a single verse, but whatever scripture(s) you believe support it. Thanks for the video. He's saying the same thing as the gotquestions link I posted, it seems. I listened to it in the background whilst doing some other work, so heard most but not every detail. :)
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,647
It doesn't have to be a single verse, but whatever scripture(s) you believe support it. Thanks for the video. He's saying the same thing as the gotquestions link I posted, it seems. I listened to it in the background whilst doing some other work, so heard most but not every detail. :)
The identity of the twenty-four elders of Revelation is a hard one to fit into anything other than a pre-trib perspective.

Revelation 5​
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.​
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.​
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;​
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

Interestingly, the only variant reading comes from the Codex Alexandrinus which substitutes “them” for “us”, thus providing the basis for a [seemingly incomprehensible] alternate reading of this passage.

 
Last edited:

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,841
So, I found this when doing some research into what was meant by "thief in the night"


This is the URL that pops up and in it the author makes his distinction between the rapture pre-tribulation (I think) and the
second coming:


The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).


For Further Study
Three Views on the Rapture by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., ed. More insights from your Bible study - Get Started with Logos Bible Software for Free!

Related Articles
When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation? What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? Will babies and young children be taken in the Rapture? What is the concept of a secret rapture? Will there be a partial rapture?


------------------------
I just want to say I do not have an opinion on this, at this time, I'm really mostly interested in other Christians opinions and how they use scripture to back it up, or not.

Thanks for contributing.
The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.
Yes the word "rapture" is not used in the Bible, its a dispensationalist word that means something completely different to the second coming of Christ. In dispensationalism the rapture means Jesus comes back twice the second time.

"The first is where only the church will be caught up to heaven. Apparently Christians will be raptured; that is, instantly transported to heaven, leaving only a pile of clothes where they were standing a moment before. They will disappear, while everyone else, the unsaved, would be left behind. Those left behind will get a second chance to accept Jesus then seven years later He will come in all His glory and every eye will see Him and the unbelievers are slain and the believers are caught up to Him and taken to heaven. There is more to it but that is the gist of it.

These two advents were first taught by John Darby and spread by Scofield in his comments in his study bible and were later popularised by the novels and movies in the Left Behind series.

Darby separated Israel from the Church into two distinct peoples of God which is not biblical as I post in this thread using scripture. Christ has only one people and family and Jews and Gentiles belong in it. Darby also created two advents of Jesus' second return, again this is not biblical at all nor is it written of anywhere in the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

Jesus is going to return only once the second time. It is the only time that is mentioned in all scripture. He will return in incredible glory (every eye shall see Him, it will be a literal and global event Revelation 1:7) for His beloved people. He will resurrect the righteous dead and they will be caught up along with the living righteous to meet Christ in the air (Christ's feet do not touch the ground when He comes back the second time). The righteous from then on will always be with Christ for eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56)."
This is taken from my thread Dispensationalism is not biblical.

I don't have a problem with using Words that are not used in the Bible as long as they do not take away from the truth of the Bible. I think the word "rapture" shouldn't be used by true Christians because its connected to a wrong teaching from dispensationalism.

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).
That's right the rapture isn't mentioned in the Old Testament and that is because its not mentioned in the New Testament either. There is no rapture doctrine in the Bible at all. Christ will come once the second time not twice or thrice or however many other times is taught in certain Christian churches.

Christ's second coming is written of the in Old Testament and the events that will happen after like hell and heaven after sin and sinners have been destroyed eternally.

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope;
We all want to be saved and go to heaven and be with our Lord for all eternity and in order to do that we have got to know His truth according to His Word not according to false doctrine which the rapture doctrine is. It misinterprets the doctrine of the second coming of Christ and even adds bits to it that are not written of in the Bible. That is mixing truth with error and that is not encouraged in the Bible.

God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).
Yes He does but with the truth of His Word not a false doctrine.
 
Last edited:

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
Yes the word "rapture" is not used in the Bible, its a dispensationalist word that means something completely different to the second coming of Christ. In dispensationalism the rapture means Jesus comes back twice the second time.

"The first is where only the church will be caught up to heaven. Apparently Christians will be raptured; that is, instantly transported to heaven, leaving only a pile of clothes where they were standing a moment before. They will disappear, while everyone else, the unsaved, would be left behind. Those left behind will get a second chance to accept Jesus then seven years later He will come in all His glory and every eye will see Him and the unbelievers are slain and the believers are caught up to Him and taken to heaven. There is more to it but that is the gist of it.

These two advents were first taught by John Darby and spread by Scofield in his comments in his study bible and were later popularised by the novels and movies in the Left Behind series.

Darby separated Israel from the Church into two distinct peoples of God which is not biblical as I post in this thread using scripture. Christ has only one people and family and Jews and Gentiles belong in it. Darby also created two advents of Jesus' second return, again this is not biblical at all nor is it written of anywhere in the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

Jesus is going to return only once the second time. It is the only time that is mentioned in all scripture. He will return in incredible glory (every eye shall see Him, it will be a literal and global event Revelation 1:7) for His beloved people. He will resurrect the righteous dead and they will be caught up along with the living righteous to meet Christ in the air (Christ's feet do not touch the ground when He comes back the second time). The righteous from then on will always be with Christ for eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56)."
This is taken from my thread Dispensationalism is not biblical.

I don't have a problem with using Words that are not used in the Bible as long as they do not take away from the truth of the Bible. I think the word "rapture" shouldn't be used by true Christians because its connected to a wrong teaching from dispensationalism.


That's right the rapture isn't mentioned in the Old Testament and that is because its not mentioned in the New Testament either. There is no rapture doctrine in the Bible at all. Christ will come once the second time not twice or thrice or however many other times is taught in certain Christian churches..

Christ's second coming is written of the in Old Testament and the events that will happen after like hell and heaven after sin and sinners have been destroyed eternally.


We all want to be saved and go to heaven and be with our Lord for all eternity and in order to do that we have got to know His truth according to His Word not according to false doctrine which rapture doctrine is. It misinterprets the doctrine of the second coming of Christ and even adds bits to it that are not written of in the Bible. That is mixing truth with error and that is not encouraged in the Bible.


Yes He does but with the truth of His Word not a false doctrine.
Phipps I think this was addressed in my second posting:

"The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture."

But honestly, if at all possible I don't want this to turn into a debate because I think the thread will get lost in it. I know many said debates exist almost everywhere.

So can I conclude, in line with that request, your scriptural evidence for no rapture is this:

Revelation 1:7 for His beloved people. He will resurrect the righteous dead and they will be caught up along with the living righteous to meet Christ in the air (Christ's feet do not touch the ground when He comes back the second time). The righteous from then on will always be with Christ for eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56)."
 

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,841
Phipps I think this was addressed in my second posting:

"The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture."

But honestly, if at all possible I don't want this to turn into a debate because I think the thread will get lost in it. I know many said debates exist almost everywhere.

So can I conclude, in line with that request, your scriptural evidence for no rapture is this:

Revelation 1:7 for His beloved people. He will resurrect the righteous dead and they will be caught up along with the living righteous to meet Christ in the air (Christ's feet do not touch the ground when He comes back the second time). The righteous from then on will always be with Christ for eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56)."
"The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture."
There is more to the rapture doctrine, that is why I said we should not use the word because most Christians who use the word it have a different understanding of it which is not based on the biblical doctrine of the second coming or advent. For example the pre-trib rapture doctrine is not biblical at all.

But honestly, if at all possible I don't want this to turn into a debate because I think the thread will get lost in it. I know many said debates exist almost everywhere.
i don't want to debate either but that does not mean we should not correct falsities as Christians.

So can I conclude, in line with that request, your scriptural evidence for no rapture is this:

Revelation 1:7 for His beloved people. He will resurrect the righteous dead and they will be caught up along with the living righteous to meet Christ in the air (Christ's feet do not touch the ground when He comes back the second time). The righteous from then on will always be with Christ for eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56)."
As I stated in my previous post and above in this post, the rapture teaching in most of Christendom is not the same as the biblical doctrine of the second coming.

I know I am being repetitive but I have to to show the differences between the rapture doctrine and the biblical doctrine of the second coming.

The rapture doctrine teaches that Christ will come the second time in two separate phases. First the righteous will be snatched away quietly (the rapture), this is not written of anywhere in the bible in both Testaments. Then Jesus will come in glory seven years later. This is not biblical at all. Jesus will come only once the second time in glory as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 and in other passages in the Bible. The righteous dead will be resurrected and then they and righteous living will be caught up in the air to meet with the Lord and then they will go to heaven with Him and will always be with Him.

Also when Christ comes back the second time for the righteous, it will not be a quiet affair. First Christ will return with a shout, an archangel voice, and God’s trumpet. It will be so loud the whole world will hear it. Then graves all over the planet will break open at once in which the righteous dead will be resurrected. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” These believers who have died will break out of their graves simultaneously all around the planet! The structure of Planet Earth will begin to melt. Peter added his description of the second coming, saying that “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12).

We've got to be careful as Christians to tell the difference between man-made doctrine and biblical doctrine within Christendom so we are not deceived (Matthew 24:11). The rapture doctrine that is taught in most of Christendom is false I'm afraid. That is why the word should not be used when talking about the second coming. That also will take way any confusion imo.

Whatever doctrines we are taught we should carefully test them by the Bible. If they don't match with biblical doctrine we should discard them. There is only one truth to any subject in the Bible.

God bless.
 
Last edited:

Jackfists

Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2022
Messages
35
Thing is, Phipps, it does become a debate if we focus on why something is more right than the other. At some point, I expect that will probably occur. For now...if possible can we all stick to the original request.

Phipps, can you provide a list of scriptures that you think refute rapture then?

Just the scriptures and why they refute rapture. Preferably the scriptures in full so I don't have to go looking for them :) Makes it easier for me, lol.
 
Last edited:

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,841
Thing is, Phipps, it does become a debate if we focus on why something is more right than the other. At some point, I expect that will probably occur. For now...if possible can we all stick to the original request.

Phipps, can you provide a list of scriptures that you think refute rapture then?

Just the scriptures and why they refute rapture. Preferably the scriptures in full so I don't have to go looking for them :) Makes it easier for me, lol.
I have posted a lot on this subject in my own thread as well as on others.

First, there is no scripture at all in the Bible that says Jesus is coming back in two phases and people are going to be snatched away secretly then seven years later He will come back in glory. You won't find it anywhere in both Testaments. Every time the second coming is spoken of in the Bible Jesus comes once in glory and takes His people with Him back to heaven and none of it will be secret at all. If those events were going to happen, they would have been written of specifically as everything about the second coming is, but the Bible is completely silent because no such events are going to happen.

Second, the following passages are often quoted to support the secret rapture (this means the righteous being snatched away quietly):

A) Matthew 24:38-42, "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." See also Luke 17:26-29. These passages do not prove a secret rapture. They merely point out that at the return of Christ, some will be saved and others will be lost. A careful study of these passages soon reveal that no secret rapture is being spoken about here at all, for the scripture states, “but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

B)
John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." These verses most definitely refer to the return of the Lord Jesus for his people, but there is no indication whatsoever that this coming will take place seven years before his visible return. This is the place that the righteous are going back to when they go back to heaven with Christ. Its the holy city, the New Jerusalem that Jesus is preparing for His people (Hebrews 11:16, Revelation 21:2).

C) 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. Again these verses are clearly referring to the Lord Jesus visible return the second time, for verse 7 uses the words, “When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven, with his mighty angels.”

D)
Zechariah 14:1-5. These verses refer to the third coming of Christ with his saints, because the second time Jesus will be coming for the saints not with them. Jesus will return with the saints after they spend 1000 years in heaven with Him.

E) Jude 1:14-15. These verses again refer to Christ’s visible return the second time, not to some secret coming seven years earlier.

F) Another passage that is used to "prove" that there is a secret rapture is 2 Peter 3:10 which says, “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” See also 1 Thessalonians 5:2. These passages are not talking about Jesus coming secretly and snatching away the saved and leaving the wicked behind. The very text that says Jesus will come like a thief in the night, also says that the heavens will pass away with a great noise. That won’t be secret!

So what does it mean for Jesus to come “like a thief in the night?” The apostle Paul says, “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober” (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Jesus’ coming will be unexpected by those who are not watching and waiting for Him. It will come upon them like a thief in the night. But His people—who are not of the night nor of darkness—will be looking for Him. They will be aware of the signs of His coming and will know that it is near. Jesus’ coming will not overtake them like the unexpected appearance of a thief. When a thief comes to steal he doesn't announce what night he will be coming. The people he is coming to steal from are not expecting him to come and steal from them. There are no signs about it either. That’s what the Bible means by saying that Jesus’ coming will be like a thief in the night—it will be unexpected to those who are not watching for Him.
 
Last edited:

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,841
@Jackfists,

I have to talk about the seven years in between the first and second phases of Christ's return according to pre-trib and dispensationalism which I have a thread on.

Since biblically Jesus is not coming back in two phases where do the seven years of tribulation come from? They take it from the book of Daniel and completely take it out of context. In Daniel 9:24-27 God made a daring prophecy concerning the probation of the nation of Israel. He said to Daniel, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people ... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins" (verse 24). God was going to allow Daniel's people seventy weeks to see what they would do with the Messiah when He appeared. The seventy weeks are prophetic time, and each day represents a literal year (Ezekiel 4:6). So the seventy weeks would be a literal period of 490 years. Of the the last week which is seven years, Daniel wrote, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times"
(verse 25). Messiah the Prince is Jesus Christ. Daniel wrote that He would be anointed after sixty-nine prophetic weeks.

Then Daniel 9:27 tells us, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The midst of the week would be three and a half prophetic days (literal years) from His baptism. And according to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years. When Jesus was crucified. The veil of the temple was torn in two (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. The Jews had a system of ceremonial law in which represented Jesus' ministry and death. For example animals had to be killed by the sinner for the forgiveness of sins. When Christ died in our place for our sins all that was done away with. The Bible tells us Jesus died once and for all for all our sins (Hebrews 9:28) and he became our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary which the earthly sanctuary was based on (Hebrews 4:14-16). So by His death Jesus caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Another three and a half years that brought the 70 week (490 years) cut off for the Jews to an end. During that last three and a half years the disciples laboured largely for the Jews. But the Jews had rejected the gospel message and the Messiah and were no longer God's chosen people.

The rapturists get their seven years' tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy and shoving it far into the future during Christ's second coming when its really about Christ's ministry and death and the end of an era for the Jews as a chosen nation. The gospel was taken around the world and all who chose/choose Christ would be/will be chosen regardless of race or nation including Jews. That is the New Covenant teaching. The apostles especially Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles so they can be saved because Jesus died for all mankind. It was always His plan that the gospel be preached around the world.

Biblically there is going to be a tribulation in this world but its going to happen before Jesus returns the second time. The rapture doctrine teaches that the righteous will be snatched away before the tribulation but that is not biblical at all.

This is from my thread about the second coming of Christ.

"It is true that a terrible tribulation is coming and will cover the earth just before Jesus returns to deliver His people. Daniel described it as “a time of trouble, such as never was” (Daniel 12:1). This time of trouble will happen before Jesus returns and the righteous will be right here on earth during the tribulation according to the Bible. The living righteous/God's people will be protected from the plagues that will be going on around them in the world but they will right here on earth.

Revelation 16:1-15 talks about the six plagues that are poured out and during the sixth plague Jesus says in verse 15, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” What sense would it make to declare that, if He had already come as a thief before the plagues were poured out? And lets not forget that when Jesus comes back He will be coming back for both the righteous dead and living (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). They won't be in heaven before the tribulation therefore.

Revelation 15:8 declares, "and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." The heavenly temple is heaven and we know Jesus is coming back for the righteous to take them with Him back to heaven. So they won't enter until after the seven plagues have been poured out on earth which is in complete harmony with God's Word."

The rapture doctrine also teaches that the people left on earth will have a second chance to choose Christ during the seven year tribulation.

The parables of Jesus do not give the impression that anyone will get a second chance during the tribulation. They make it plain that the Second Coming of Jesus is a divine climactic event—men and women will be either saved or lost. There will be no seven-year period to reconsider our lives. Now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).

In Matthew 13:30, both the wheat and the tares (the followers and rejecters of God) grow together until the harvest. The followers are saved and the rejecters are lost.

In the parable of the unfaithful servant, there is no second chance. The unfaithful are lost when the Lord of the household comes unexpectedly.

In the parable of the sheep and goats, men and women are either saved or lost when Jesus comes.

Plus Revelation 22:11-12 says, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." When Jesus returns the second time, He will be returning with rewards for everyone. Everyone's destiny will have been decided and no one is going to get a second chance after that.

There are more questions and answers about the falseness of the rapture doctrine here if you want to read more about it. Only scripture is used to make the point.

As I posted before the rapture as taught in most of Christendom and is very popular based on dispensationalist teaching is not biblical at all. Neither does it harmonise with the Bible because a lot of what it teaches is not even found in the Bible and then the rest is misinterpreted to fall in line with its false teaching.
 
Last edited:
Top