"The muslim trinity"

[Artful Revealer]

If they're not separate how was Jesus human and die when he's literally God, who is supposed to be immortal?

You're conflating the incarnation with the incarnated. The body of Jesus dies. The Son / Word is immortal. If all the qurans are burned, and all the people who have memorized it die, the Word of Allah doesn't cease to exist either, right?

How can my words be me? By your logic the chair I make is also me but than that wouldn't make any kind of sense and no sane person would say that chair is me.

The chair doesn't form a unity with you. Your words, thoughts and mind are a unity.

I'm confused because three separate things are also, one at the same time.

Distinct, not separate. Consult a dictionary if the difference between the two is unclear.

 

[Kung Fu]

I think some good points have been made, artful revealer offers alot to the discussion, and expounded upon the points, its a shame you cant stop being a na na na nah, im a muslim everyone look at me kind of debater.

You could learn a thing or two from AR.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication

 

[Resistor]

You're conflating the incarnation with the incarnated. The body of Jesus dies. The Son / Word is immortal. If all the qurans are burned, and all the people who have memorized it die, the Word of Allah doesn't cease to exist either, right?

Well from what I know, that is very very doubtful as far as Islam is concerned.
In the Qur'an in the Surah al-Jinn it says

Say, ‘It has been revealed to me that a team of the jinn listened [to the Qurʾān].’and they said, “Indeed we heard a wounderful qurʾān, which guides to rectitude.Hence we have believed in it and we will never ascribe any partner to our Lord.
- Surah 72, 1-2

So I don't think that's very likely at all, seeing that it hasn't been solely revealed to humans. It would exist in whatever form Jinn and Angels have it, and it would still exist in the Mother Book (umm al-Kitab).
The physical book of the Qur'an is just a physical book, the Qur'an is always understood to be far more than just pages of words, this is also part of it's spiritual power in Islam.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Well from what I know, that is very very doubtful as far as Islam is concerned.
In the Qur'an in the Surah al-Jinn it says

Say, ‘It has been revealed to me that a team of the jinn listened [to the Qurʾān].’and they said, “Indeed we heard a wounderful qurʾān, which guides to rectitude.Hence we have believed in it and we will never ascribe any partner to our Lord.
- Surah 72, 1-2

So I don't think that's very likely at all, seeing that it hasn't been solely revealed to humans. It would exist in whatever form Jinn and Angels have it, and it would still exist in the Mother Book (umm al-Kitab).
The physical book of the Qur'an is just a physical book, the Qur'an is always understood to be far more than just pages of words, this is also part of it's spiritual power in Islam.

Again you say no to me, when in actuality you say yes. Do you even understand what you say?

 

[Resistor]

The chair doesn't form a unity with you. Your words, thoughts and mind are a unity.

What you're saying is a very materialistic on what makes someone who they are.

 

[Kung Fu]

You're conflating the incarnation with the incarnated. The body of Jesus dies. The Son / Word is immortal. If all the qurans are burned, and all the people who have memorized it die, the Word of Allah doesn't cease to exist either, right?

The chair doesn't form a unity with you. Your words, thoughts and mind are a unity.

Distinct, not separate. Consult a dictionary if the difference between the two is unclear.

But Jesus in the body was still God along with several people worshiping him while he was in his body, no? The meanings of the Quran continue to exist or so you could say but it's all moot because Muslims don't worship the Quran.

Why do my words form a unity with me, when I can change my mind about what I said yesterday, but yet the chair I created which came from my thoughts and actions don't form a unity with me? The way I see it according to your logic that chair is just as much a part of me.

At one point in time where they not separate? Jesus in a body on earth, the Holy Spirit guiding him, and The Father in His realm/heaven?

 

[Artful Revealer]

What you're saying is a very materialistic on what makes someone who they are.

It's the exact opposite of materialistic lol

Mind, thoughts and word are all in reference to their unrevealed state which only becomes revealed through the word incarnate.

 

[Resistor]

It's the exact opposite of materialistic lol

Mind, thoughts and word are all in reference to their unrevealed state which only becomes revealed through the word incarnate.

Mind is your brain, words are language and thoughts are the collective expression of language.
You never even factor consciousness or the soul, to which you've placed the ego (the self that thinks and feels) over the soul.
In the Abrahamic context you're a materialist.

 

[Kung Fu]

It's the exact opposite of materialistic lol

Mind, thoughts and word are all in reference to their unrevealed state which only becomes revealed through the word incarnate.

I think it's just jargon at this point. You can't equate living, distinct, and separate entities to human words and a mind. I'm even more confused now than I was before.

Peace be upon you all.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Mind is your brain, words are language and thoughts are the collective expression of language.
You never even factor consciousness or the soul, to which you've placed the ego (the self that thinks and feels) over the soul.
In the Abrahamic context you're a materialist.

You seem deliberately obtuse. Does God have a Mind? Does He therefore have a physical brain? No? Are thoughts materialistic? Are words?

QED.

 

[Resistor]

You seem deliberately obtuse. Does God have a Mind? Does He therefore have a physical brain? No? Are thoughts materialistic? Are words?

QED.

Applying religious symbolism and metaphor to the creator literally is a big mistake.
Even though you Christians do it, try not to do it to Islam when "attempting" to unravel Islamic ontology. It's embarrassing because the scriptures themselves already provide proper exegetical basis, as to many Hadith on such metaphysical topics.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I think it's just jargon at this point. You can't equate living, distinct, and separate entities to human words and a mind. I'm even more confused now than I was before.

But ... why?

1. If your words don't become incarnate, I wouldn't know you. Do you agree?

2. If God's Word doesn't become incarnate, we wouldn't know God. Do you agree?

3. Your words exist (in your mind) before they become incarnate, ie. made perceivable by others. Do you agree?

4. Jesus is the revealed Word of God in Christianity, just as the Quran is the revealed Word of God in Islam. Do you agree?

5. But the Word of God exists (in God's Mind) prior to being revealed. ie. made perceivable by us, as you should've agreed with statement 2. Do you agree?

6. Therefore, just because the incarnate Word dies, ie. the man Jesus dies or the Quran is burnt, it doesn't mean the pre-incarnate word is dead. Do you agree?

If you agree with all these statements, you agree with the gist of what I've been saying.

 

[seekinheart]

Are you going to answer me or not? you made a strange remark and I want to hear your interpretation.

Allah has many different descriptions and it is hard to represent him in a few words, so the Qur'an teaches that Allah has 99 names. Each of the 99 names relates to a particular attribute of Allah, making him easier to understand and relate to.

Doesnt sound simple.

Again its more inconsistent with the nature of a "simple" God that he is that varied he has 99 names to describe him.

 

[Resistor]

4. Jesus is the revealed Word of God in Christianity, just as the Quran is the revealed Word of God in Islam. Do you agree?

This is such elementary stuff.

The Descriptive Titles of Jesus in the Quran (part 2 of 2): A “Word” and “Spirit” from God

A discussion of the name, titles, and description of Jesus in the Quran. Part 2: A look at the some of the other titles given to Jesus, such as a “word”, a “spirit”, “mercy”, and others.

www.islamreligion.com

 

[seekinheart]

you guys dont get it, nobody is saying that these are identical concepts only that there is a similar theme, that isnt that different to what muslims are seemingly so repulsed by.

 

[Resistor]

Allah has many different descriptions and it is hard to represent him in a few words, so the Qur'an teaches that Allah has 99 names. Each of the 99 names relates to a particular attribute of Allah, making him easier to understand and relate to.

Doesnt sound simple.

Again its more inconsistent with the nature of a "simple" God that he is that varied he has 99 names to describe him.

But you use many of those same names to talk about how you perceive God, so it's not different at all.

Names of God in Islam include;

Creator
Sustainer
Merciful
Compassionate
Most-Holy
Giver of peace
Mighty
All-seeing
All-knowing
Nourisher
All-embracing
Truth/reality
Friend
Originator
Giver of life
Unique
One
First
Last
Manifest
Hidden
Good
Kind
Guide
Immutable


Et cetera.

What isn't simple about that? contemplating their meanings is where the power is.

 

[Resistor]

Like, @seekinheart literally go read the Psalms and you'll see them show up everywhere.

 

[Artful Revealer]

This is such elementary stuff.

The Descriptive Titles of Jesus in the Quran (part 2 of 2): A “Word” and “Spirit” from God

A discussion of the name, titles, and description of Jesus in the Quran. Part 2: A look at the some of the other titles given to Jesus, such as a “word”, a “spirit”, “mercy”, and others.

www.islamreligion.com

What is your point?

 

[Resistor]

you guys dont get it, nobody is saying that these are identical concepts only that there is a similar theme, that isnt that different to what muslims are seemingly so repulsed by.

Problem is, to explain, the Qur'an explicitly clarifies on #1 (refuting your claims) but correlates with you on #2 (vague language by itself).
Then you go and take #2 out of context and claim that it confirms what your theology says.
Despite that #1 explicitly refuting what you believe.

Nonsense polemics. Utter rubbish.

 

[Resistor]

What is your point?

Qur'an's semantics are not at all related to what you keep preaching.