USA - BASE NATION

[Hon33]

Ok..I thought you meant something a little more specific than that.

It is specific.

 

[Lisa]

It is specific.

Some resolution ..she didn’t give the exact resolution did she?

 

[shankara]

Some resolution ..she didn’t give the exact resolution did she?

So there was no resolution authorizing immediate war, only weapons inspections, which the Iraqis complied with. After the invasion a report was made on whether Iraq actually did have WMDs:

While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad's desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Lisa]

So there was no resolution authorizing immediate war, only weapons inspections, which the Iraqis complied with. After the invasion a report was made on whether Iraq actually did have WMDs:

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

www.theguardian.com

It was a long road and clearly Saddam had weapons of mass destruction..he used them. As to why the nations...and there were plenty of other nations besides the US...decided now was the time to act is beyond me.

Iraq WMD Timeline: How the Mystery Unraveled

Iraq's history with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons -- commonly referred to as "weapons of mass destruction" (WMD) -- is a story of development, war, deception and surprise.

www.npr.org

 

[shankara]

It was a long road and clearly Saddam had weapons of mass destruction..he used them. As to why the nations...and there were plenty of other nations besides the US...decided now was the time to act is beyond me.

Iraq WMD Timeline: How the Mystery Unraveled

Iraq's history with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons -- commonly referred to as "weapons of mass destruction" (WMD) -- is a story of development, war, deception and surprise.

www.npr.org

Yes Lisa, clearly he had weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons) sometime in the 90s, by the time the invasion took place he had destroyed them, hence why none were found. Not to mention that he was supplied a lot of weapons by you yanquis to fight Iran, probably not chemical weapons I imagine but nonetheless, the point remains that the US did supply him with arms despite him being an "evil dictator".

It's funny how rulers become "evil dictators" when it is in the USA's strategic interest to overthrow them, while the crimes of dictators are ignored when they help the expansion of the neo-liberal free market and open up their countries to foreign financial speculators.

 

[Lisa]

Yes Lisa, clearly he had weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons) sometime in the 90s, by the time the invasion took place he had destroyed them, hence why none were found. Not to mention that he was supplied a lot of weapons by you yanquis to fight Iran, probably not chemical weapons I imagine but nonetheless, the point remains that the US did supply him with arms despite him being an "evil dictator".

It's funny how rulers become "evil dictators" when it is in the USA's strategic interest to overthrow them, while the crimes of dictators are ignored when they help the expansion of the neo-liberal free market and open up their countries to foreign financial speculators.

I think that happens quite a bit with any country who is fighting their proxy wars..you have to have another country to tango with don’t ya?

It’s not a bad thing to open up other countries to free markets..help people try to prosper in their own country than have them dying to come here.

Yes..they clearly had them and the intel at the time and Saddam’s reluctance to let inspectors inspect is what ended up costing Saddam.

 

[shankara]

I think that happens quite a bit with any country who is fighting their proxy wars..you have to have another country to tango with don’t ya?

It’s not a bad thing to open up other countries to free markets..help people try to prosper in their own country than have them dying to come here.

Yes..they clearly had them and the intel at the time and Saddam’s reluctance to let inspectors inspect is what ended up costing Saddam.

Basically Lisa all you do is repeat the mantra: "The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system". I don't think you have any real grasp of international politics or economics, I imagine you don't actually understand how any non-capitalist economic system would actually work - so you are criticizing things you don't even conceptually grasp. There is ample clear evidence that the USA has engaged in military interventions and support for dictators in order to further it's agenda, the facts are obvious to anyone who makes some cursory research.

I think that actually you don't care about facts, when you are confronted with facts that don't fit with your worldview you simply dismiss them as lies. Do you really not understand why so many people here find it frustrating to talk with you? Your stubborn clinging to your opinions in the face of all contradicting evidence is maddening, it's like talking to someone who has been brainwashed. You are not unique, particularly in the USA there are a lot of people who think very much like you do, but so far as this forum goes your beliefs are much, much closer to the mainstream than the majority of people here. The thing is that threads just turn into these endless pointless arguments with you repeating your mantra....

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

...

 

[Lisa]

Basically Lisa all you do is repeat the mantra: "The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system". I don't think you have any real grasp of international politics or economics, I imagine you don't actually understand how any non-capitalist economic system would actually work - so you are criticizing things you don't even conceptually grasp. There is ample clear evidence that the USA has engaged in military interventions and support for dictators in order to further it's agenda, the facts are obvious to anyone who makes some cursory research.

I think that actually you don't care about facts, when you are confronted with facts that don't fit with your worldview you simply dismiss them as lies. Do you really not understand why so many people here find it frustrating to talk with you? Your stubborn clinging to your opinions in the face of all contradicting evidence is maddening, it's like talking to someone who has been brainwashed. You are not unique, particularly in the USA there are a lot of people who think very much like you do, but so far as this forum goes your beliefs are much, much closer to the mainstream than the majority of people here. The thing is that threads just turn into these endless pointless arguments with you repeating your mantra....

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

...

You repeat your mantra’s too Shankara..and you keep arguing your points...so I’m not sure how I can be blamed for not simply dismissing my worldview for yours..when you wouldn‘t think of doing the same.

You just like to look at the world in a certain way where the current system is wrong...however the current system..especially in the US works and people prosper because of it..so much so that many people from different countries would like to come here and have the opportunities we do. Then you have that other side...who because of whatever reasons..and they have a bunch of them, hate this country and would like to see it fall...I would say jealousy and envy are at the root of all that.

I never said that the US only did good..but we aren’t the only bad people on earth..in fact all people everywhere are sinners and all countries being run by sinners..are going to be bad in some ways. That’s just common sense. You keep saying that the US is responsible for the Iraq war..where I proved that we weren’t the only ones there and I proved that Saddam wasn’t the innocent little dictator doing right by his people and the UN. So..you‘re the one that should probably change your mind..

 

[Hon33]

Basically Lisa all you do is repeat the mantra: "The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system". I don't think you have any real grasp of international politics or economics, I imagine you don't actually understand how any non-capitalist economic system would actually work - so you are criticizing things you don't even conceptually grasp. There is ample clear evidence that the USA has engaged in military interventions and support for dictators in order to further it's agenda, the facts are obvious to anyone who makes some cursory research.

I think that actually you don't care about facts, when you are confronted with facts that don't fit with your worldview you simply dismiss them as lies. Do you really not understand why so many people here find it frustrating to talk with you? Your stubborn clinging to your opinions in the face of all contradicting evidence is maddening, it's like talking to someone who has been brainwashed. You are not unique, particularly in the USA there are a lot of people who think very much like you do, but so far as this forum goes your beliefs are much, much closer to the mainstream than the majority of people here. The thing is that threads just turn into these endless pointless arguments with you repeating your mantra....

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

"The USA is right, everything the USA does is good, neo-liberal capitalism is the best economic system"

...

I would consider myself a mainstream thinker and yet even I know that the war against Iraq in 2003, was considered illegal. No evidence of weapons of mass destruction existed at that time.
Even I know that the death of Dr David Kelly - whether it was actually suicide or not - showed clearly that something was very wrong in the corridors of Westminster and that the U.K. government had been sparing with the truth.

 

[shankara]

You repeat your mantra’s too Shankara..and you keep arguing your points...so I’m not sure how I can be blamed for not simply dismissing my worldview for yours..when you wouldn‘t think of doing the same.

You just like to look at the world in a certain way where the current system is wrong...however the current system..especially in the US works and people prosper because of it..so much so that many people from different countries would like to come here and have the opportunities we do. Then you have that other side...who because of whatever reasons..and they have a bunch of them, hate this country and would like to see it fall...I would say jealousy and envy are at the root of all that.

I never said that the US only did good..but we aren’t the only bad people on earth..in fact all people everywhere are sinners and all countries being run by sinners..are going to be bad in some ways. That’s just common sense. You keep saying that the US is responsible for the Iraq war..where I proved that we weren’t the only ones there and I proved that Saddam wasn’t the innocent little dictator doing right by his people and the UN. So..you‘re the one that should probably change your mind..

Nobody is saying that Saddam was a good guy. There is no dispute that he was a cruel and bloodthirsty dictator. But the USA has propped up a number of bloodthirsty dictators when it suits them, and it's clear that Iraq is just another example of the US agenda taking precedence over humanitarian concerns, leading to the death of some 200,000 civilians at minimum. It's the same story over and over, dictators are fine when they co-operate with US interests and while they are still strategically useful. While democratic governments who don't fulfill those two criteria may be deposed by sponsoring a military coup, and those who continue to be "inconvenient", such as activists for human rights, might find themselves visited by a yanqui death squad.

You say that the USA is such a paradise where everyone can make it, but have no problem with the most clearly unjust inequalities. Do you not comprehend how absurd it is that a CEO should earn hundreds of times the wage of people who have worked equally hard? Even social mobility there, it does exist to a certain extent, but statistically much less than in Canada (for example). But this isn't even the major thing, the point is that the neo-liberal system is imposed on other countries by violence, because any other economic system (especially if it works, and isn't under an authoritarian government which can just be labelled as "communist dictatorship") would be too much of a challenge to the US global hegemony.

All you have to do is educate yourself a little, there is plenty of information out there. Perhaps if you actually developed your intellectual understanding rather than reading only the Bible and newspaper articles...

Anyway this is going way off topic, perhaps someone can revive the discussion on the subject it's supposed to be about.

 

[shankara]

I would consider myself a mainstream thinker and yet even I know that the war against Iraq in 2003, was considered illegal. No evidence of weapons of mass destruction existed at that time.
Even I know that the death of Dr David Kelly - whether it was actually suicide or not - showed clearly that something was very wrong in the corridors of Westminster and that the U.K. government had been sparing with the truth.

Yeah and all despite millions of British marching in the streets against it. Really shows how much so-called "representative democracy" ("plutocrat-representative-propagandocracy") actually cares about the opinions of the people.

 

[Hon33]

You repeat your mantra’s too Shankara..and you keep arguing your points...so I’m not sure how I can be blamed for not simply dismissing my worldview for yours..when you wouldn‘t think of doing the same.

You just like to look at the world in a certain way where the current system is wrong...however the current system..especially in the US works and people prosper because of it..so much so that many people from different countries would like to come here and have the opportunities we do. Then you have that other side...who because of whatever reasons..and they have a bunch of them, hate this country and would like to see it fall...I would say jealousy and envy are at the root of all that.

I never said that the US only did good..but we aren’t the only bad people on earth..in fact all people everywhere are sinners and all countries being run by sinners..are going to be bad in some ways. That’s just common sense. You keep saying that the US is responsible for the Iraq war..where I proved that we weren’t the only ones there and I proved that Saddam wasn’t the innocent little dictator doing right by his people and the UN. So..you‘re the one that should probably change your mind..

Lisa, you don’t seem to understand what kind of low esteem the US and it’s government, are held in around the world. I know Trump has supporters on this site but for many others, he has made himself and your country a laughing stock. That’s a fact.
What is there to admire about the US? I have visited it once in my lifetime and I have no desire to ever return there again. I’m sorry to anyone who is offended by that statement.

You didn’t prove that the US was not the only country responsible for the war on Iraq. That’s never been in dispute - nor is the fact that Saddam Hussein was “not an innocent little dictator”. I think everyone is fully appraised of the evil which was Saddam Hussein but that does not make the war any more legal.

 

[Lisa]

Nobody is saying that Saddam was a good guy. There is no dispute that he was a cruel and bloodthirsty dictator. But the USA has propped up a number of bloodthirsty dictators when it suits them, and it's clear that Iraq is just another example of the US agenda taking precedence over humanitarian concerns, leading to the death of some 200,000 civilians at minimum. It's the same story over and over, dictators are fine when they co-operate with US interests and while they are still strategically useful. While democratic governments who don't fulfill those two criteria may be deposed by sponsoring a military coup, and those who continue to be "inconvenient", such as activists for human rights, might find themselves visited by a yanqui death squad.

You say that the USA is such a paradise where everyone can make it, but have no problem with the most clearly unjust inequalities. Do you not comprehend how absurd it is that a CEO should earn hundreds of times the wage of people who have worked equally hard? Even social mobility there, it does exist to a certain extent, but statistically much less than in Canada (for example). But this isn't even the major thing, the point is that the neo-liberal system is imposed on other countries by violence, because any other economic system (especially if it works, and isn't under an authoritarian government which can just be labelled as "communist dictatorship") would be too much of a challenge to the US global hegemony.

All you have to do is educate yourself a little, there is plenty of information out there. Perhaps if you actually developed your intellectual understanding rather than reading only the Bible and newspaper articles...

Anyway this is going way off topic, perhaps someone can revive the discussion on the subject it's supposed to be about.

So..just leave him there..when other countries wanted him gone to? That didn’t happen..so...

I think dictators are fine when they cooperate with whatever country that wants to use them...see you keep leaving out any other country and have laser focus on the US when its not just us.

What country isn’t unjust? Seriously? Lol! That’s a ridiculous argument. The US was founded on freedom to make it in this life without the government telling you how to live..and now people are trying their hardest to reverse that...that’s what antifa really is.

I’m blessed with an over abundance of common sense..you forgot to mention that.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa, you don’t seem to understand what kind of low esteem the US and it’s government, are held in around the world. I know Trump has supporters on this site but for many others, he has made himself and your country a laughing stock. That’s a fact.
What is there to admire about the US? I have visited it once in my lifetime and I have no desire to ever return there again. I’m sorry to anyone who is offended by that statement.

You didn’t prove that the US was not the only country responsible for the war on Iraq. That’s never been in dispute - nor is the fact that Saddam Hussein was “not an innocent little dictator”. I think everyone is fully appraised of the evil which was Saddam Hussein but that does not make the war any more legal.

I’m pretty sure I know how the world hates us..and I think we need to stop paying anything to the world because of it...maybe then we would be liked again?

Trump made America great again..and with most countries working on socialism or communism I could see why people would be jealousy hateful of us.

Its your opinion..why would it offend me or anyone else?

Since we aren’t the only ones responsible for the Iraq war..why are we only blamed for it? Sometimes..your sins come due...

 

[DevaWolf]

Trump made America great again..and with most countries working on socialism or communism I could see why people would be jealousy hateful of us.

You really think we are jealous in Europe?

Why on earth would we be jealous? In this 'socialist hell' I get taken care off very well, while America has no healthcare system or any protection for it's citizens. Honestly the notion that we would be jealous is laughable.

 

[Lisa]

You really think we are jealous in Europe?

Why on earth would we be jealous? In this 'socialist hell' I get taken care off very well, while America has no healthcare system or any protection for it's citizens. Honestly the notion that we would be jealous is laughable.

Yes..I think you are jealous. We don’t live off our government..at least not yet. We do have a healthcare system in America..its not a socialist system though and here in America..we don’t think the VA socialistic system that good...so I don’t know that I would like your healthcare system at all. Why should I give more taxes for the government to control my healthcare for me when they can’t even work for my benefit anywhere else?

 

[DevaWolf]

Yes..I think you are jealous. We don’t live off our government..at least not yet. We do have a healthcare system in America..its not a socialist system though and here in America..we don’t think the VA socialistic system that good...so I don’t know that I would like your healthcare system at all. Why should I give more taxes for the government to control my healthcare for me when they can’t even work for my benefit anywhere else?

I would seriously rather die than live in America, so no you're wrong no matter how much you try to spin it to fit your narrative.

Our government is pretty good at working for our benefit, which is why the Netherlands is one of the happiest countries on earth. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/03/netherlands-ranked-sixth-happiest-country-in-the-world/ The USA is not found in there.

 

[Lisa]

I would seriously rather die than live in America, so no you're wrong no matter how much you try to spin it to fit your narrative.

Our government is pretty good at working for our benefit, which is why the Netherlands is one of the happiest countries on earth. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/03/netherlands-ranked-sixth-happiest-country-in-the-world/ The USA is not found in there.

I’m sure you wouldn’t want to live here..you‘d have to work and not have the security net of your government to take care of you if you fail. Idk what happens when your government officials keep taking most of the money for themselves..but I guess when they are taking care of you that doesn’t matter..somehow they’ll still take care of you too?

Happy in your enslavement.

 

[shankara]

I’m sure you wouldn’t want to live here..you‘d have to work and not have the security net of your government to take care of you if you fail. Idk what happens when your government officials keep taking most of the money for themselves..but I guess when they are taking care of you that doesn’t matter..somehow they’ll still take care of you too?

Happy in your enslavement.

Oh Lordy Lisa, I think you're right, living in a country where everything isn't dictated by free markets and maximum profits is such slavery! You'd better send an army to come and liberate us, and if you kill a few civilians in the process don't worry, that's the cost of "freedom".

 

[Lisa]

Oh Lordy Lisa, I think you're right, living in a country where everything isn't dictated by free markets and maximum profits is such slavery! You'd better send an army to come and liberate us, and if you kill a few civilians in the process don't worry, that's the cost of "freedom".

You get what you get and don’t throw a fit?