Barriers between you and God?

[TokiEl]

Not found as a name in the Old Testament at all. There is no "name of God" as "father" in the Torah.

Of course Isaiah 63:16 does use the analogy but in a poetic sense.

Why do you plot a vain thing ?

God is laughing at you... kiss the son or perish.



Psalm 2Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall [h]break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

 

[Infinityloop]

Why do you plot a vain thing ?

God is laughing at you... kiss the son or perish.



Psalm 2Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall [h]break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Proverbs 30:6-9:

Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
“Two things I ask of you, Lord;
do not refuse me before I die:
Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is YHWH?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God.

 

[TokiEl]

I am TokiEl.

Nuff Said !L0L

 

[Tidal]

The question never answered in Christian theology, is "why blood"?
I know Jewish answered but Christians never have any answers.

What "blood" thing exactly? I suppose it's mostly an Old T thing, but Christians are mainly concerned only with the New T..

 

[Daciple]

I just wonder how many threads and posts you are going to write that condemn Christianity as the Wrong way, while never posting threads on the RIGHT way?

How about you start doing whatever the equivalent in your made up Religion is to preaching the Gospel is to the Christian Religion. We show you the one path, the one way and how to get Saved, Faith in Christ.

You tell us we are wrong and never preach whatever the path is in your made up Religion for Salvation.

We get it you dont like Biblical Christianity, maybe try teaching what you think is the actual path to Salvation for once?

 

[Infinityloop]

I just wonder how many threads and posts you are going to write that condemn Christianity as the Wrong way, while never posting threads on the RIGHT way?

You interpret me wrong but I gave up (around November last year) holding people's hands here trying to help them understand everything I say.

I do hold Marcionism, while not personally agreeable, is a good reference here - in regards to the only natural conclusion to the dichotomy deifying Jesus places in contrast to the Torah.
The contradiction is quite obvious if you claim that "Jesus is God" while you simultaneously **claim to** believe in the Torah, which has a polar opposite view of existence, meaning, forgiveness, redemption and Theology.
I don't personally care what you do or don't believe, but I do inevitably find these topics interesting.
At the same time, to be quite regularly be proselytized and polemecized against by Christians (here and elsewhere) I only find it fair and reasonable to discuss the things about Christianity that **you** either overlook, refuse to talk about or blatantly lie about.
Nonetheless, I do believe that proper hermeneutics is missing from most mainstream Christians who evidently go for an "anything goes" approach to interpreting the Bible (with the exception of Catholic doctrines like the Trinity which most Christians regard as obligatory belief).

I don't condemn Christianity inasmuch as I condemn what are very unhealthy and destructive habits of illiterate Christians.

As for this thread, it's quite an obvious question that Christians don't answer, it is an aversion from an assumed-conclusion. Personally I believe God is eternal, transcendent and encompassing all. That God is....God. God being the Creator of all things afterall.

How about you start doing whatever the equivalent in your made up Religion is to preaching the Gospel is to the Christian Religion.

What gives? lol. You come to me about made up religions, yet you've dodged the OP in where many "made up" aspects of Christianity come to light, in comparison to the Torah of Moshe.

As for "why don't you proselytize back at us". No, I refuse to ever do that. It is never my aim with anybody, nor am I that arrogant or shallow a person to think of religion as selling a product to someone. I personally find it distasteful, disrespectful and in bad-faith towards the other person.

We show you the one path, the one way and how to get Saved, Faith in Christ.

You preach and proselytize about your idol being the only way but you either play dumb or flee when genuine conversation and debate is offered in response. Again, bad-faith.

The thing is that Christians exclusively seem to think that they both are the only ones who posses some secret occult knowledge, that nobody knows their religion except them and that nobody else's experiences are important, authentic or worth listening to except their own.
Again, bad-faith.

As for salvation, I don't believe any humans can save me, only God.

You tell us we are wrong and never preach whatever the path is in your made up Religion for Salvation.

Precisely, as I've stated.

We get it you dont like Biblical Christianity, maybe try teaching what you think is the actual path to Salvation for once?

Christianity isn't "Biblical". Christianity wants to be based upon the Bible, and while it reads texts, it doesn't draw it's conclusions from the texts, it interprets the texts through it's preordained-conclusions. The term "Biblical Christianity" seems to be a very common slang or a catch-phrase within Evangelical and Baptist sects of Protestantism from what I've observed (and usually within the context of introducing new doctrines too, lol), it's interesting that you use that term.

Also, again with the "your made up religion". This is again, bad-faith, I sense contempt in your post.

I could make a thread about the topic of salvation if you want but I refuse to preach. I will debate you on the merits of your beliefs on the subject though.


God bless,
Infinityloop

 

[Daciple]

I could make a thread about the topic of salvation if you want but I refuse to preach. I will debate you on the merits of your beliefs on the subject though.

And as always there it is, debate me on the merits of my beliefs as you refuse to divulge your own beliefs. So again I challenge you to actually post and create threads based on YOUR views of YOUR Religion and allow others to debate YOU on the merits of YOUR beliefs.

Wonder why in all this time on the board as this persona you havent been willing to do such a thing? I have zero problem confessing my beliefs and as you know in the past when we debated, I lent hours and hours of time and dozens and dozens of post to defend and restate ad nausem the merits of my beliefs in light of your contempt towards them.

When you state that when "real debate" comes I flee is false statement, just because of recent I havent been motivated nor have had the time to spend copious amounts of times re debating with you my beliefs doesnt mean either I am not capable nor does it mean that I dont have the ability. It simply means either I dont have the time, that there are other much more important things for me to focus on here such as preaching the Gospel to the Lost and giving hope to the Saved, or that I dont find you worthy of my personal time anymore in you constant hatred of the Truth of Christ.

Regardless of all of that, the real test to your authenticity concerning literally everything about yourself on this site will come once you begin to lay out in detail your beliefs so that others can debate the merits of them, rather than your constant droning on of how no one else and their beliefs have merit...

Carry on with your short sword with a curved blade that broadens toward the point, used originally in Eastern countries....

 

[Infinityloop]

And as always there it is, debate me on the merits of my beliefs as you refuse to divulge your own beliefs. So again I challenge you to actually post and create threads based on YOUR views of YOUR Religion and allow others to debate YOU on the merits of YOUR beliefs.

This is a fallacy boring on ad hominem, that you think all "me me me" rather than the subject being discussed. I don't know why **MY** beliefs are so important to you.

Wonder why in all this time on the board as this persona you havent been willing to do such a thing? I have zero problem confessing my beliefs and as you know in the past when we debated, I lent hours and hours of time and dozens and dozens of post to defend and restate ad nausem the merits of my beliefs in light of your contempt towards them.

What are you even blathering about? in my time here I've barely ever seen you around, we've only directly interacted about twice as far as I remember.

When you state that when "real debate" comes I flee is false statement, just because of recent I havent been motivated nor have had the time to spend copious amounts of times re debating with you my beliefs doesnt mean either I am not capable nor does it mean that I dont have the ability. It simply means either I dont have the time, that there are other much more important things for me to focus on here such as preaching the Gospel to the Lost and giving hope to the Saved, or that I dont find you worthy of my personal time anymore in you constant hatred of the Truth of Christ.

I have no idea what you're saying here, I do mean what I said in the quote though, I will discuss or debate you on the topic of salvation, making a thread about it, if it's something you really **need** me to do.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And as always there it is, debate me on the merits of my beliefs as you refuse to divulge your own beliefs. So again I challenge you to actually post and create threads based on YOUR views of YOUR Religion and allow others to debate YOU on the merits of YOUR beliefs.

Wonder why in all this time on the board as this persona you havent been willing to do such a thing? I have zero problem confessing my beliefs and as you know in the past when we debated, I lent hours and hours of time and dozens and dozens of post to defend and restate ad nausem the merits of my beliefs in light of your contempt towards them.

When you state that when "real debate" comes I flee is false statement, just because of recent I havent been motivated nor have had the time to spend copious amounts of times re debating with you my beliefs doesnt mean either I am not capable nor does it mean that I dont have the ability. It simply means either I dont have the time, that there are other much more important things for me to focus on here such as preaching the Gospel to the Lost and giving hope to the Saved, or that I dont find you worthy of my personal time anymore in you constant hatred of the Truth of Christ.

Regardless of all of that, the real test to your authenticity concerning literally everything about yourself on this site will come once you begin to lay out in detail your beliefs so that others can debate the merits of them, rather than your constant droning on of how no one else and their beliefs have merit...

Carry on with your short sword with a curved blade that broadens toward the point, used originally in Eastern countries....

I think that @Infinityloop would define his beliefs (if he dared to face it) as "eclectic". Perhaps along the lines that no religion has "the truth" (while perhaps containing truths), and that each religion has truth in it?

I don't believe the above, but this is what I think he "stands for". In this way, it is not nececarry to stand for something so much as stand against the idea that God might have revealed Himself in a particular way and that by implication, other paths are false and deceptive.

 

[Infinityloop]

I think that @Infinityloop would define his beliefs (if he dared to face it) as "eclectic". Perhaps along the lines that no religion has "the truth" (while perhaps containing truths), and that each religion has truth in it?

Not at all, you're still a few miles away from where I am Red.

In this way, it is not nececarry to stand for something so much as stand against the idea that God might have revealed Himself in a particular way and that by implication, other paths are false and deceptive.

That is what you believe though, isn't it? (aka Jesus is right but Krishna isn't, etc) now you're confusing me.
I understand the dynamism of religion, metaphysics, philosophy, history etc sure, but I've never professed what you are stating. nor would I because I don't agree with it.

 

[Wigi]

@Infinityloop

Something I quite not understand with you it's the mixed signals because now you say you 'hold Marcionism' while Marcionism oppose the Torah to the Gospel and basically states that the better of the two is the Gospel but that's not what you believe. You said in page 1 that the 'Christian' gospel is a false gospel.

Last time I've checked, you seemed to be more in agreement with Islam since you're not showing the same level of criticism towards it. As a matter of fact you argued for it at many occasions and Islam is strictly not compatible with Marcionism because they believe in Christ.

As for salvation, I don't believe any humans can save me, only God.

That's why we need grace since we can't save ourselves.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 8:24

 

[Infinityloop]

@Infinityloop

Something I quite not understand with you it's the mixed signals because now you say you 'hold Marcionism' while Marcionism oppose the Torah to the Gospel and basically states that the better of the two is the Gospel but that's not what you believe. You said in page 1 that the 'Christian' gospel is a false gospel.

I never said I "hold Marcionism" (that is deceptively misquoting me).
Reread my post:
"I do hold Marcionism, while not personally agreeable, is a good reference here". (aka, if you can't read it means "Marcionism is a good reference to this discussion")
Maybe you missed the "is a good reference here", which was my point of mentioning it.
Marcionism is the only logical conclusion to deifying Jesus, I see no other answer. Marcion was a genius for seeing the logical contradictions but a fool for not thinking of other, more logical answers. Marcion is the case of making a logical conclusion to one problem (that deifying Jesus is incompatible with the Torah and Tanakh) but the answer taken being equally as illogical (still continuing to worship Jesus and going to oppose YHWH).
Jesus was a Prophet of God but that's logically where it stops. If you contradict the Torah on this, then you are creating your own "gospel" and following a "false-god" according to Deuteronomy 13.

That's why we need grace since we can't save ourselves.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 8:24

Nobody needs to die for my sins, I am saved only through God. I die for my own sins, I go to heaven or hell for my own actions. There is no exception to this rule, unless you're an atheist perhaps.

 

[Wigi]

Jesus was a Prophet of God but that's logically where it stops. If you contradict the Torah on this, then you are creating your own "gospel" and following a "false-god" according to Deuteronomy 13.

Once again this is a mixed signal, Jesus is a Prophet of God according to who? What makes you accept this position?

I go to heaven or hell for my own actions

In other words you think your own actions/ good works can grant your salvation?

 

[Infinityloop]

Once again this is a mixed signal, Jesus is a Prophet of God according to who? What makes you accept this position?

[slaps Wigis wrist], no that's called changing the topic.

Lets try this, assume that I am not claiming Jesus is a Prophet of God but agreeing that you are correct up to that point. Start at this.

See, even this point is problematic from a standpoint that only involves the Old and New Testament because it is for the most part an empty container with no actual Messianic dough yeast flower water etc. That itself is also changing the topic, so we are not going there.

If you make the statement "Jesus is God" then you do not believe in the God of the Torah. You also fundamentally disagree with Jesus' own belief system. Many of the mainstream Christian doctrines you support are Unbiblical and are based upon preordained-conclusions imposed upon the text of the Bible.

In other words you think your own actions/ good works can grant your salvation?

Nothing except God can "grant us salvation". However I fully disagree with the Protestant and Salafi beliefs that God created the universe so that we would just believe things, live 70 years and then just die. That is very much Nihilism. Belief is not the purpose of existence, it is a nonsensical thing to put forward and I wholeheartedly reject it with all of my being.
And I certainly believe that salvation for Adam and Noah is the same as salvation for us in the 21st century, God doesn't change.
By saying such a thing I also do not deny it's importance in faith, if you (unlikely) understand what I'm saying.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Not at all, you're still a few miles away from where I am Red.



That is what you believe though, isn't it? (aka Jesus is right but Krishna isn't, etc) now you're confusing me.
I understand the dynamism of religion, metaphysics, philosophy, history etc sure, but I've never professed what you are stating. nor would I because I don't agree with it.

Let me be more clear in my second paragraph...

"I don't believe the above, but this is what I think he "stands for". In this way [it appears to me that @Infinityloop takes the stance that], it is not necessary to stand for something so much as stand against the idea that God might have revealed Himself in a particular way and that by implication, other paths are false and deceptive.

I personally do not believe there are many paths, just one - Jesus. I know that this causes offence and I know the Bible predicts it...

1 Peter 2 nkjv

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Wigi]

Lets try this, assume that I am not claiming Jesus is a Prophet of God but agreeing that you are correct up to that point

To believe someone could be a Prophet of God you can't simply rely on 'logic', it's a truth claim that needs to be tested yet I don't know why you take it at face value. Even jews thought He was an impostor.

If you make the statement "Jesus is God" then you do not believe in the God of the Torah.

If someone really believe the God of Israel, He has no choice but to admit that Jesus is the Christ.

And I certainly believe that salvation for Adam and Noah is the same as salvation for us in the 21st century

Then why you don't believe God when He said He would provide for our salvation (Hebrews 10) just like He shown the ark to Noah and just like He gave to Abraham the animal he needed to sacrifice in order to complete his devotion towards Him ?

 

[Karlysymon]

This is one thing that I will never understand about Christianity.

The Torah makes it pretty clear that God loves us and that there is no barrier between us and God, that there is nothing required of us but we seek redemption with God. The Torah's worldview is that we can atone our own sins because God is very forgiving and enjoins upon us righteousness and good-works.

Christianity on the other hand, believes that God is irreproachable and that we are so far from God that we need an intermediary. It believes that humanity is so lost that it needs a blood sacrifice to atone for sin and heretical concepts that deny the Torah, such as:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​

Aka, Jesus (according to the author of John) is gatekeeping and denying you the freedom of direct relationship with HaShem/Adonai that is very consistent in the Torah. This is a primary trait of Idolatry. "No you can't come to God, you have to come to this to get to God".
Any argument you throw at me, you have to remember, you are throwing at the Torah which is supposed to be from God.

The question is, even though the Torah shows a very forgiving and open view of God, why do Christians seem to think that there has to be a barrier between themselves and God, and why an idol is necessary to connect with God when God made itself very clear in Exodus 3:

“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation." (Exodus 3:15)​

The Christian "gospel" is a false gospel because it denies all of the basic facts about mans relation with God and the world around him. This conversation obviously differs only if you are a Marcionite-Christian.

@Infinityloop
Why can't man see God face to face?
If there is no barrier and all that there is to redemption is repentance and good works, then in our holiness, we should be able to see God. But no, even though man desperately craves it, we can't see God. Why?

 

[Infinityloop]

To believe someone could be a Prophet of God you can't simply rely on 'logic', it's a truth claim that needs to be tested yet I don't know why you take it at face value.

Yes but then the road you're trying to nudge us down just opens the can of worms about how can anything be from God etc. This is the inevitable conclusion of your question but not mine. My question at least meets you on mutual terms, to reason about certain serious issues according to the Torah.

Even jews thought He was an impostor.

And according to the the sources of the concept of a Messiah (basically of which is only in the Talmud), Jews would be absolutely correct (again, unless we conclude that Marcion was right, then we get to reject Jewish Prophecy entirely).

If someone really believe the God of Israel, He has no choice but to admit that Jesus is the Christ.

No, if one is to believe in the God of Israel than one has no choice but to reject Jesus as a deity. One could possibly accept him as a Prophet but that's the logical extent. There are no exceptions. Do you understand the concept, Wigi, of "biting the hand that feeds you?".

Then why you don't believe God when He said He would provide for our salvation (Hebrews 10) just like He shown the ark to Noah and just like He gave to Abraham the animal he needed to sacrifice in order to complete his devotion towards Him ?

The Epistle of Hebrews is exactly just that, a letter. It has nothing to do with God.

If you tell me that the Torah is correct but then bring me a letter that contradicts the Torah and tell me to believe it, how do you think I'm supposed to react? Either the Torah is correct or it isn't. This is afterall one of the fundamental basics of which Christianity is supposed to rest, yet it contradicts it from the offset.
If the Torah was from God and you bring a new "revelation" that directly contradicts it, not merely on small minute details but on massive things like salvation, theology, morality, everything, then logically we must first be suspicious of your claims - then assess the likelihood of the nature of your claims based upon the prior agreed upon basis of discussion (that Torah is true).

 

[Infinityloop]

@Infinityloop
Why can't man see God face to face?

That in itself is a can of worms.

Are you implying that you believe in Audianism? (of which would result in a very awkward conversation, even more so that deifying Jesus)

As for unraveling the mystery of divine theophany, reflecting on Exodus 33:20 in light of the visions of the Old Testament Prophets might amaze you.

As Jeremiah 23:24 states:
"Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares YHWH "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares YHWH.

Isaiah 66:1-2 says:
Thus says YHWH, "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares YHWH. “These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit,and who tremble at my word.

What about Psalm 113:4-6:
YHWH is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens. Who is like YHWH our God, Who is enthroned on high, Who humbles Himself to behold The things that are in heaven and in the earth?

Genesis 28:15-16 even states (well before Moses):
Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely YHWH is in this place, and I did not know it"

Deuteronomy 4:39:
Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, he is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other

These verses really do go on and on. There is no necessity for the Christian Christology according to the Old Testament (Tanakh), the Torah is very blatant about this.

If there is no barrier and all that there is to redemption is repentance and good works, then in our holiness, we should be able to see God. But no, even though man desperately craves it, we can't see God. Why?

This is a problem for the evangelical/baptist type fundi Protestants vs those spiritually inclined. You can experience and know God, you only have to put in the work to search for God.

 

[Vixy]

You know, one of the devils tricks is to say you're not close enough to God. Over and over and over. It's one of his tactics, I've noticed,to bring forth shame and to make the relationship unstable. We know ourselves where we stand with God, our hearts tell us.

Dont let anyone bring in chaos in the relationship!