Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

[manama]

yes it must be from the Quran but you're missing the point, it is still called Ruqyah, it is still 'incantation' except it is the Quran being used instead of other words.

Its not spells or incantations, its exorcism.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Its not spells or incantations, its exorcism.

It's not just for exorcism but also for healing health and mental issues.
But the method itself ie ruqya literally is "incantations" read the Hadith on this ie look up the word incantation on searchtruth.com to find the contexts

 

[manama]

It's not just for exorcism but also for healing health and mental issues.
But the method itself ie ruqya literally is "incantations" read the Hadith on this ie look up the word incantation on searchtruth.com to find the contexts

its not about the definition, its about how its used.

 

[AspiringSoul]

its not about the definition, its about how its used.

Yes but that's the point the prophet Saw first was against it then someone asked him why it was wrong the way he did it, analysed his method and said it's perfectly fine and then encouraged it.

The basic rule
No evil
No shirk

But yet the method is "magic"
Just like the prophet Saw approved on 1 method of divinationbut forbade others.
Sihr is magic used for evil
Magic used to fight sihr ie white magic is allowed. As I've explained ruqya =halal magic

 

[AspiringSoul]

However I have to add that on the day of judgement the muslims who chose faith over ruqya will be taken straight to paradise no question.

 

[manama]

Magic used to fight sihr ie white magic is allowed. As I've explained ruqya =halal magic

No, its not

 

[manama]

White magic and Black magic work the same way, in one you attack a human, in other you tell the demon to push away other demon. There is no major difference. Both require either devil worship, doing evil or extreme polytheism. How can you say white magick is allowed, is beyond me.

 

[AspiringSoul]

3) must be from Quran or Sunnah
4) The person must not say it silently that others could not hear him

(11) Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported I had a maternal uncle who treated the sting of the scorpion with the help of incantation. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade incantation. He came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, you forbade to practise incantation, whereas I employ it for curing the sting of the scorpion, whereupon he said: He who amongst you is capable of employing it as a means to do good should do that. (Book #026, Hadith #5454)

(12) Jabir reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) prohibited incantation. Then the people of Amr b. Hazm came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: We know an incantation which we use for curing the sting of the scorpion but you have prohibited it. They recited (the words of incantation) before him, whereupon he said: I do not see any harm (in it), so he who amongst you is competent to do good to his brother should do that. (Book #026, Hadith #5456)

the only criteria is whether or not it contains shirk or evil.

Actually, it is haram unless it is done in accordance to the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. "Whoever introduces something into this affair of ours (i.e.Islam) will have it rejected."

you're making up an argument and quoting hadith out of context
do you know what bidah really even means?

in islam, there are 2 (or 4) lines
the Fard and Sunnah
and the Haram and mukruh

there are many many many things that are neither fard/sunnah or haram/mukruh
those things in islam, are simply
halal

but your way of thinking is "if the prophet SAW didn't do it, it is bidah"
no, bidah are those things that ALTER the fard/sunnah/haram/mukruh ie any change to those lines

So for example, Prophet SAW himself didn't used to read the taveeh jamat every day in ramadan. He did this so people are aware it is not fard, but sunnah.
Yet Caliph Umar RA used to read it everyday, thus going against the sunnah.
Umar RA said about this "it is a good innovation"

mind blown

maybe you should use your brain to think about the varying contexts in which 'bidah' is applied.
hadith only really present 1 angle to a story, sometimes you require a bigger picture to see the topic from multiple angles.


bottom line is this
ruqya is magic
it is perfectly allowed
So he who amongst you is competent to do good to his brother should do that.

 

[AspiringSoul]

White magic and Black magic work the same way, in one you attack a human, in other you tell the demon to push away other demon. There is no major difference. Both require either devil worship, doing evil or extreme polytheism. How can you say white magick is allowed, is beyond me.

a method where jinns are used to fight jinns, is not white magic, but black magic.
do you know why?
because if you fuck with the freewill of jinns, it is black.

contacting jinns to help you even if they have their freewill is on the evil side, we all know it because we know how deceptive the jinns are and how much they lie.
if it contains no shirk and no evil
it is white magic.

 

[AspiringSoul]

for me the division of black/white depends on the shariah.
for someone with a different morality, it's different.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Yes, which is why I don't consider pre-Christian Judaism a religion, but a theocratic cult. That said, most of the religious aspects were borrowed from Zoroastrianism anyway.

zoroastrnism had some influence in later times but otherwise you're wrong.

 

[grateful servant]

maybe you should use your brain to think about the varying contexts in which 'bidah' is applied.
hadith only really present 1 angle to a story, sometimes you require a bigger picture to see the topic from multiple angles.


bottom line is this
ruqya is magic
it is perfectly allowed
So he who amongst you is competent to do good to his brother should do that.

You're wrong. Ruqyah is not magic. and the context of Umar's saying was in the linguistic sense. It was not something the Prophet hadn't done before because he did. So it wasn't a bidah in sense of newly invented matter into the religion. Your claims have no basis in Quran or Sunnah. We follow the Quran and Sunnah - Prophet said whoever holds onto them will not be led astray and we believe him, not a sufi order or tariqah.

Inna Asdaqal-hadithi Kitabullah, wa ahsanal- hady hadyu Muhammadin Sallalahu alaihi wasallam. Wa sharrul umoori muhtadathuha. Wa kulla muhdathatin bid'ah wa kulla bid'atin dalalah wa kulla dalalatin fin-naar. - Prophet Muhammad - Alaihi salatu wa salam

 

[AspiringSoul]

First I have heard of it.

Regarding the authors of the hadeeth: are there certain authors that you outright know as false? If so, are you willing to name them?

basically the main collections of hadith
for example Saheeh bukhari...contain hadiths within them coming from many different sources (ie the chain of transmission being different for most hadiths)
some contradict others
so somewhere down the line the chain of transmission is broken...ie like chinese whispers.
Imam Bukhari judged the validity of the source based on his own criteria..yet when there were contradictions, he was just being fair in presenting all of them.
so we have to make a calculated decision in deciding which story is correct

for example there are the hadiths which claim aisha's age was '9' at the age of consumation in Sahih bukhari which you know about.
however a clever person thinks outside the box and can understand a few things
1) aisha was accused of being an adulteress, by the shia camp who were pro-Ali/Fatimah and anti-Abu Bakr/Aisha
2) These specific hadith MAY have been politically influenced to contrast the shia claim, by presenting aisha as a 'pure' child virgin.
3) here is another hadith in the same book Sahih bukhari)
same "narrator" ie Aisha
but the chain of transmission is going to b
(3) Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)." (Book #8, Hadith #465)

Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr who was the 3rd convert to islam when the Prophet SAW was 40 years old.
Here, "Aisha" is saying she had already attained the age of puberty when her parents accepted islam.
so if she married the Prophet SAW 13 years later, it would put her in her 20s.

4) if hadith contradict the Quran, we are meant to reject them.
The Quran doesn't allow us to marry children
Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a ReckonerQuran 4:6

The hadith are collections of narrations attributes to a primary source, but they are stories that were memorised/passed on so over time you have a chain of transmission
so a hadith scholar would have to analyse the entire chain ie each individual and their backstory to know how trustworthy the source was
there are question marks hanging over the narrations that present aisha's age as 9 at the time her marraige was consumated.
This is something i guess you'd have to be willing to read up on in depth if you were yourself, interested.
You cannot just write off an entire collection (ie Saheeh Bukhari)...even if you considered some hadith to be false within it, you still have to accept them as a real source of information that once existed and was written down.

 

[AspiringSoul]

You're wrong. Ruqyah is not magic. and the context of Umar's saying was in the linguistic sense. It was not something the Prophet hadn't done before because he did. So it wasn't a bidah in sense of newly invented matter into the religion. Your claims have no basis in Quran or Sunnah. We follow the Quran and Sunnah - Prophet said whoever holds onto them will not be led astray and we believe him, not a sufi order or tariqah.

Inna Asdaqal-hadithi Kitabullah, wa ahsanal- hady hadyu Muhammadin Sallalahu alaihi wasallam. Wa sharrul umoori muhtadathuha. Wa kulla muhdathatin bid'ah wa kulla bid'atin dalalah wa kulla dalalatin fin-naar. - Prophet Muhammad - Alaihi salatu wa salam

you have absolutely no idea, you're making up an entire argument
Ruqya=incantation=magic
simple as a pimple
man up and accept it.

the bidah/quran/sunnah argument you have is just coming out of thin air and has no relevance
you don't even know what the specific incantation was in some of those hadith, so how the hell can you decide what was 'Quran and sunnah'

 

[manama]

a method where jinns are used to fight jinns, is not white magic, but black magic.
do you know why?
because if you fuck with the freewill of jinns, it is black.

contacting jinns to help you even if they have their freewill is on the evil side, we all know it because we know how deceptive the jinns are and how much they lie.
if it contains no shirk and no evil
it is white magic.

Are you freaking kidding me? Both white AND black magic consists of contacting the demons.

White magic being permissible is a misconception. Anyone one who knows a drop of what white magic is would tell you otherwise. You have to WORSHIP stuff in nature to do it. You contact the demons through polytheism. They contact these gods and goddesses but according to monotheistic faith there is ONLY ONE GOD, and that is our belief. What they contact aren't gods and goddesses, the ones who respond to their calls are the demons. God doesn't come down on earth fight against the jinn you are doing white magick against. SMH. Its like an agreement "leave these people alone for a while", Thats all that happens

I don't care about what you believe in, in all honesty we all have our beliefs, but something like magick is clear. For the love of God don't lead people astray. The next thing we know, bunch of idiots go ahead and perform white magick thinking its good. Its freaking not!!!

 

[AspiringSoul]

if it doesn't contain shirk or evil and it is for good
then it is allowed

there's no rule which specifically says it MUST be recited from the Quran
for example, i could have my own personal words that contain no shirk/evil and are not from the Quran...and if they are used for good
then perfectly halal.

quit fucking up islam for the rest of us with your restrictive bullshit.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Are you freaking kidding me? Both white AND black magic consists of contacting the demons.

White magic being permissible is a misconception. Anyone one who knows a drop of what white magic is would tell you otherwise. You have to WORSHIP stuff in nature to do it. You contact the demons through polytheism. They contact these gods and goddesses but according to monotheistic faith there is ONLY ONE GOD, and that is our belief. What they contact aren't gods and goddesses, the ones who respond to their calls are the demons. God doesn't come down on earth fight against the jinn you are doing white magick against. SMH. Its like an agreement "leave these people alone for a while", Thats all that happens

I don't care about what you believe in, in all honesty we all have our beliefs, but something like magick is clear. For the love of God don't lead people astray. The next thing we know, bunch of idiots go ahead and perform white magick thinking its good. Its freaking not!!!

i just told you that White for me, consists of what is halal and black=shirk/evil etc
so if someone contacts jinns
then it is black magic, not white magic

 

[AspiringSoul]

a hindu has a diff morality to me
so what is white to a hindu may be black to me.
the criteria to define 'white/black' is basically halal and haram, shariah.

 

[grateful servant]

@manama Leave this guy to himself. It is not worth arguing about with him because the more he does, the further into shirk he goes. He thrives on it too unfortunately - very sad for him. Even the Christians here can see that his sect is far from what the majority of Muslims here follow - Quran and Sunnah. Walhamdulillah.

 

[AspiringSoul]

if something neither interferes with the Quran/sunnah nor with the haram/mukruh
then it is perfectly halal in every sense and anyone who claims it is bidah because "the prophet SAW didn't do it" is a dangerous restrictive islam who will damage this religion.

it's no wonder the prophet SAW wrote off the salafist movement in the prophecies.
mind numbing stupidity is what it is.