Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

[AspiringSoul]

Do you realise that sounds like your prophet Muhammad endorses the use of the occult if the ends justify the means?
There are NO permission slips for using the Occult in the Bible. NO loopholes, special clauses or small print.

what is 'occult' or 'magic' in my understanding is anything non-physical that causes physical results
the problem here is you try to define your own ideas of what the occult is and isn't based on your own religious views and then apply it to not so much to "islam" as a whole but specifically to MY own definition of the occult which differs from yours

so really it's your definition vs my definition

 

[mecca]

what is 'occult' is anything non-physical that causes physical results
the problem here is you try to define your own ideas of what the occult is and isn't and then apply it to islam where the context is different.

so for example the prophet SAW allowed the use of INCANTATIONS when they contain no polythiesm and no evil
so if something exists, it contains no evil or polythiesm
you're going to tell me the bible still forbids it?
some people you believe in
justifies the killing of every living being in an entire town
but it is against a bit of hypnosis/subconscious programming when it's done to heal people

what Jesus did, you define as MIRACLES
are a form of magic and occult.

that is an absolute fact that you have no business even trying to deny.

to me, something metaphysical, causing physical results=magic
regardless of whether it is a miracle or whether you use the Quran or psalms or anything else
prayer...is occult and a form of magic

Maybe you can use different words to describe it then... if it's different from what people think.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Lisa i read what you wrote
the problem here is widespread ignorance of these themes, ideas etc
it is very clear to me, based on our interactions you still do not know what actual Gnosis means yet you want to then give me a copy/paste interpretation of the single eye verse..even though there are many more gnosis related themes in the new testament.


Gnosis, is to witness a thing in a state the surpasses the senses and to witness it alone
it is a deeper point in concentration
ie to KNOW God...you have to know Him beyond the senses, to experience God in your heart exclusively
same with Jesus...
you have to go beyond the beta/alpha state of mind.

 

[Lady]

@AspiringSoul
Gnosis is not as rare and incomprehensible as you make it to be. It is known by those who have been born again. True Christians KNOW Christ in the way you keep trying to describe to us. We get it-deeply.
Do you have Gnosis of the Messiah, the Lord Christ?

 

[AspiringSoul]

Maybe you can use different words to describe it then... if it's different from what people think.

I edited my post and simplified it, plus it contained a few errors so didnt make sense.


Well the problem is religions have a theological stance against other movements/groups/religions that are not in line with their own theology
so a christian will think islam is occult

to me occult is simply anything metaphysical
magic is anything metaphysical that alters the physical


what defines what is allowed and isn't depends on the theology

the problem is christians associate the occult with evil, simply because the ave christian has absolutely zero spirituality, they just pop into a church now and then, do xmas, support israel with their hand on their cock etc. This is the essence of modern christianity.

whereas the new age movements were in depth into their channeling/divination and all else, so they became more associated with occult practices.

muslims in the west also have a new revised understanding based on terminology/emphasis they've picked up in the west with these terms
so people like @manama are throwing around terms like 'occult' and 'magic' in the wrong way and in large part influenced by the salafist anti-soofee camp

 

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul
Gnosis is not as rare and incomprehensible as you make it to be. It is known by those who have been born again. True Christians KNOW Christ in the way you keep trying to describe to us. We get it-deeply.
Do you have Gnosis of the Messiah, the Lord Christ?

so you know Jesus Christ?
yet when you use the term LORD you are implying he is God.
what do you know about this term?

here's an example of what REAL Gnosis of Jesus will do for you

notice this is a real video on the news and not one of those fake ones the christians put out with the likes of Ergun Caner

 

[Lady]

so you know Jesus Christ?
yet when you use the term LORD you are implying he is God.
what do you know about this term?

here's an example of what REAL Gnosis of Jesus will do for you

notice this is a real video on the news and not one of those fake ones the christians put out with the likes of Ergun Caner

Please allow me the right to call "Fake" just as you do when a video is posted that opposes your view of faith in the LORD.

I know exactly what I am implying when I call Jesus the Christ "LORD." I do not use it lightly, but according to its implication as found in the Bible.
Now, I will watch the video.

The first words are describing a former FEMALE PRIEST. Without watching one second more, I can debunk the video. But watch it, I will.

 

[Lady]

@AspiringSoul

What exactly in this video convinces you that this woman has displayed Gnosis?
Honest question-it will let me know a few things about your background in the true Christian knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Please allow me the right to call "Fake" just as you do when a video is posted that opposes your view of faith in the LORD.

I know exactly what I am implying when I call Jesus the Christ "LORD." I do not use it lightly, but according to its implication as found in the Bible.
Now, I will watch the video.

The first words are describing a former FEMALE PRIEST. Without watching one second more, I can debunk the video. But watch it, I will.

Please sure do tell me what you mean when you say LORD
please elaborate.

also what she WAS doesn't matter, her testimony was that she was taught a method by a muslim (i know which method it is) and she saw Jesus Christ. Why shouldn't I believe her testimony was real?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Holmes_Redding

notice in her story, she's never once trash talked about Christianity.
she has more videos on youtube
i think she's clearly very sincere and is even saying she will have to answer for her choices when she dies.
so she's standing by her choice based on conviction.

I call fake on those other video because they've been exposed as fake
there isn't just 1 video on youtube but many, detailed to the extent of their lies

thankfully there are christians who seem to have better mindsets and will expose lies when they see them. I have nothing but respect for such people because they stand up for what they believe.

look there are too many stories of converts to islam but i am only focusing on her because she saw a vision...
the method she practiced, is called muraqaba, it is basically just meditation
but specifically it is a form of muraqaba that leads to Gnosis (marifah).

however it isn't merely something confined to islam
it is basically just concentration of Jesus
think about this
imagine you entered into the theta brainwave state, consciously with Jesus Christ on your mind exclusively
and could see/meet him?
this is what islamic sufism tells us you can do.

here's a video explaining this method

 

[Lady]

I don't have to visualize to see Jesus Christ because His Spirit actually dwells WITH me! Isn't that exciting? It is a promise from the Son of God and I do not have to do anything such as meditate or visualize or enter into a trance.
1 Corinthians 6:19
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Romans 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There is nothing more I need attain-He has given me everything I need to live in this world because of His love-not just for me, but for all.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
to even get to be IN christ requires gnosis and yet here you are talking about how he's in you with no effort on your own part.

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?"

don't be foolish enough to think 'knowing' Jesus merely consisted of looking at him as he walked about the earth or knowing about him.
to 'know' him you had to become One with him
and that is what Gnosis refers to.

why is it so hard for you to believe in gnosis?
the Eastern orthodox church believe in it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis#In_Eastern_Orthodox_thought

 

[Lady]

Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
to even get to be IN christ requires gnosis and yet here you are talking about how he's in you with no effort on your own part.

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?"

don't be foolish enough to think 'knowing' Jesus merely consisted of looking at him as he walked about the earth or knowing about him.
to 'know' him you had to become One with him
and that is what Gnosis refers to.

why is it so hard for you to believe in gnosis?
the Eastern orthodox church believe in it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis#In_Eastern_Orthodox_thought

That's right, NO effort from man-that is why He is the Holy Spirit. Man is unholy and therefore cannot produce a situation in which the Holy Spirit would appear outside of man's being in Christ. Christ promised man "the comforter" when He was transfigured. Thus, we cannot conjure Him at will because it is a fulfilling of Jesus Christ's promise to His sheep at the moment of conversion.
The believer's job is to "not quench the Spirit" by sinning. We are to heed Him as He leads us into all truth.

Why is the belief in Gnosis so critical for you? You seem to have replaced belief in the Messiah with belief in Gnosis.
You are being led down a strange path, friend, and it will lead to your eternal destruction.

 

[AspiringSoul]

That's right, NO effort from man-that is why He is the Holy Spirit. Man is unholy and therefore cannot produce a situation in which the Holy Spirit would appear outside of man's being in Christ. Christ promised man "the comforter" when He was transfigured. Thus, we cannot conjure Him at will because it is a fulfilling of Jesus Christ's promise to His sheep at the moment of conversion.
The believer's job is to "not quench the Spirit" by sinning. We are to heed Him as He leads us into all truth.

Why is the belief in Gnosis so critical for you? You seem to have replaced belief in the Messiah with belief in Gnosis.
You are being led down a strange path, friend, and it will lead to your eternal destruction.

I honestly do not know what you're trying to say. I can see you're merely creating an argument around my points because you can't come to any agreement with me.
So here goes...

-You said
You seem to have replaced belief in the Messiah with belief in Gnosis.

I'm speaking of Gnosis of Jesus Christ...
belief is in the brain, faith is in the heart
belief is what allows us to cultivate faith the right way..but the end goal is Marifah (Gnosis) which occurs in the heart.

-To be "in Christ" ie as a branch in a tree, you have to reflect his qualities
and to reflect his qualities...your heart has to mirror his..
Jesus said
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

ie whatever it is you desire, your heart reflects that
you want to be In Jesus Christ?
then you have to fix your minds eye on Jesus Christ.

'Thus, we cannot conjure Him at will'
do you even know what the word conjure means?
implore (someone) to do something.

im not talking of conjuration, but the vision of Jesus Christ through gnosis, this is not conjuration but UNION
thus when Jesus said
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
this was not a reference to mere BELIEF but to the UNION that comes from the use of belief to cultivate faith, to create the perfect conditions to enable this union to happen

Again you're reacting so negatively because it's coming from me. Even though the eastern orthodox church believes in this too.

 

[Lady]

@AspiringSoul
You are right, I do not agree with you-but, it is not because the anti-biblical philosophies are coming from you, per se, but that they are coming at all.
Yes, I know what conjure means.

Every man, woman or child who has entered into the knowledge that Jesus Christ is LORD, is abiding, is one, and is a new creature, in Him.
I wish you could understand the spiritual connection that Christians who are born-again have with Christ. It is the REAL gnosis.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul
You are right, I do not agree with you-but, it is not because the anti-biblical philosophies are coming from you, per se, but that they are coming at all.
Yes, I know what conjure means.

Every man, woman or child who has entered into the knowledge that Jesus Christ is LORD, is abiding, is one, and is a new creature, in Him.
I wish you could understand the spiritual connection that Christians who are born-again have with Christ. It is the REAL gnosis.

ok so imagine every Christian began with the holy spirit in them
why did your religion get broken down into sects and different doctrines?

the only way is if some people didn't have the holy spirit...
why not?

Honestly if you Christians actually had a real spiritual connection to Jesus Christ, it would be evident
you guys would be at the forefront of speaking truth or making sense

so far you're lacking.



the anti-biblical philosophies are coming from you

which philosophy do i have that's anti-biblical?
gnosis is a word used by Paul written in the original greek translations.
so gnosis isn't anti biblical.

You keep on repeating this word Lord
what does it mean?

 

[Lady]

I will answer your question about Lord in due time.

You raise a great question about the formation of other sects and I wish I was more knowledgeable on it. Let me say though, that the Protestant sects were break-offs of the RCC and still in many ways follow several of the traditions.
One of the churches that started and remained as a separate sect was the Anabaptists, today's fundamental Baptists. Even the Baptists have divided on some issues. Just like a Sunni, Shia, and any other Islamic sect.
I think you can grasp the situation of the different denominations when you think on the various Islamic divisions.

Yes, there are people in all churches everywhere who do not have the Holy Spirit. Those who do are those people from any or no church who have entered into the spiritual connection with Jesus Christ and because of His promise to send the Spirit to them.

The church or denomination does not matter. What matters is that anyone can hear the truth and be converted-even a Muslim . Why doesn't a particular church matter? Because the Christians are His church. We are the temples. As such, we are the vessels that the Holy Spirit indwells. Talk about gnosis!

 

[Artful Revealer]

You can play word games all you want but that's not mysticism. Mysticism is occultism.

Even if you google mysticism, even google associates mysticism with the occult.

Mysticism is about achieving union with God. Isn't that a part of Christian and other spiritualities' teaching by the way, returning to perfect unity with God?

 

[Artful Revealer]

We have already answered your point, you coming back with the same thing again and again is no different than a parrot's talk.

No, you said that the teaching to eat with your right hand and the amount of fingers one can use was a fatwa. It's not a fatwa, it's in authentic (sahih) hadith. Stop saying "no" and face facts, please if you want to contribute to an honest and rational discussion forum.

We answered about the authentic ones. We told you which are the fabricated ones and why. Come back with something new and original next time.

You do not get to decide which are fabricated and which are not. Bukhari and Muslim did that. We go by their isnad, not yours.

 

[manama]

No, you said that the teaching to eat with your right hand and the amount of fingers one can use was a fatwa. It's not a fatwa, it's in authentic (sahih) hadith. Stop saying "no" and face facts, please if you want to contribute to an honest and rational discussion forum.

You do not get to decide which are fabricated and which are not. Bukhari and Muslim did that. We go by their isnad, not yours.

Wtf

 

[Artful Revealer]

Etagloc said: "You can keep your language and culture insofar as you're not doing things like idol-worship and you don't need a team of scholar to tell you which hand you can eat with and how many fingers you can use to eat with."

You said: "LOL fatwas
some scholars also said nail polish is haram lmao, this is why we don't take them seriously to me my religion is what Prophet taught and God said."

To which I said: "No, not fatwas, sunnah. Authentic no less."

The instructions on how to eat come from Muhammad, not scholars.