144,000: Literal or symbolic?

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Contend
verb
con·tend
\kən-ˈtend\
  • intransitive verb
  • 1: to strive or vie in contest or rivalry or against difficulties :struggle contended with the problems of municipalgovernment willcontend for the championship thisyear
  • 2: to strive in debate: argue
Just remember that a lot words in the old English language have a different meaning now. What a certain word meant one thing at one time, lost that meaning over time and NOW it means something different.
Plus remember how Jesus defended the truth he came to give us, I SERIOUSLY doubt that he engaged in heated discussions or arguments. He was a man of wisdom and his words were short and to the point. He always knew what to say to put an end to the arguments the scribes or pharisees wanted to engage him in. Plus he knew when he was being put to the test and he didn't go back and forth with them, he gave concise answers.
 

Glad 2 know

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She hasn’t defended anything though. She says her stuff and when called on it can’t defend what she says.
She's young and she will learn more as the days go by. I knew enough at her age but as time went on I gathered more knowledge. Even to this day I'm still learning, it's fair to say we all are.
 

Lisa

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Just remember that a lot words in the old English language have a different meaning now. What a certain word meant one thing at one time, lost that meaning over time and NOW it means something different.
Plus remember how Jesus defended the truth he came to give us, I SERIOUSLY doubt that he engaged in heated discussions or arguments. He was a man of wisdom and his words were short and to the point. He always knew what to say to put an end to the arguments the scribes or pharisees wanted to engage him in. Plus he knew when he was being put to the test and he didn't go back and forth with them, he gave concise answers.
Sad that you only want to believe what you want to believe and it isn’t always the truth..
She's young and she will learn more as the days go by. I knew enough at her age but as time went on I gathered more knowledge. Even to this day I'm still learning, it's fair to say we all are.
She’s more irritating than helpful...she likes to think she knows something but when called on what she thinks she knows refuses to debate.
 

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The text in Revelation 7:4 was written by the apostle John. It is prophetic, yet not typical prophecy. The context is apocalyptic. The Greek word apokalypsis means “revelation”, “disclosure” or “unveiling”.

The “revelation” about the 144,000 is exciting yet mingled with hesitance because the “unveiling” has not been entirely completed. Therefore, we should avoid speculation or an attempt to make the 144,000 an exclusive club.

In Revelation 6:12-16, John describes the apocalyptic events that precede the advent of Jesus Christ. In verse 17 the question is raised, “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The responding “disclosure” is in Revelation 7. John “unveils” the 144,000 as saints who will stand triumphant, undeterred, undefiled and victorious when Jesus returns to earth.

As an apocalyptic prophecy, Revelation 7 is full of symbols. We do not see four angels holding back the literal winds of strife, do we? (7:1). Nor do we see an angel placing a literal mark on the foreheads of God’s children (7:2-3). Just imagine what people would think if they saw us following an actual lamb or not getting married as a sign of our loyalty to God (14:4). The figures of speech in Revelation 7 are symbolic. So why would we interpret the 144,000 differently? We must be consistent in our interpretation.

The 144,000 is an all-inclusive group of faithful followers who love Jesus and are obedient to His commandments (14:4-5). They conquer the image of the beast, endure persecution (7:1-3; cf. 14:9-11; 13:15-18), stand victorious with Jesus Christ and sing the triumphant song of their experience with God (14:3). The number is therefore symbolic of God’s end-time universal church who make up spiritual Israel (7:4-8). They are the remnants who survive the shifting in Laodicea (3:14-22) and include those who respond to the loud cry of the third angel’s message when the image of the beast becomes law (15:2).

As “first fruits” of the final harvest, the 144,000 are part of a much more abundant harvest of people from the earth, beginning with Adam and Eve and including every soul who accepts Jesus Christ before the close of human probation. Individuals will be gathered before God from all nations of the earth. Those redeemed will be an enormous multitude of people no-one can count (7:9). They will celebrate before God and the throne day and night (7:10-12).

We should not worry ourselves with numbers. Space is not a problem for God. The 144,000 is only symbolic of saints portrayed in the Bible as faithful to God and ready to meet Jesus face-to-face at the end of time. There is room for everyone who accepts Jesus Christ today as Lord and Saviour.

The 144,000 are faithful followers of Jesus Christ who make up the end-time universal church of God. The focus will not be national, genetic or denominational but instead on faith and loyalty to the reign of God in our lives.

Our responsibility then is not to worry about who makes up the 144,000. It only leads to a spirit of judgement and criticism. Instead, let’s strive to be among the 144,000 saints who will live to witness the return of Jesus Christ. We must be faithful to the daily reign of God in our lives in anticipation of His eternal kingdom.
Just remember that the Bible isn't all symbolism or all literal. It has both. For this specific topic, gotta think about what you read. God wants us to use our minds to discern the words written in His Holy Book.
Not all of the words in the book of John are symbolic. If you read Revelation 21:3,4 do those words make you think it's an illusion for our minds to entertain or will it really happen??
In the times that we live in and all throughout the history of humanity, we REALLY need the kingdom of Yahweh so it absolutely makes sense that he will make all things new and will wipe tears off peoples' eyes and eliminate death and suffering. Plus get rid of evil satan and evil demons.
If Yahweh has chosen 144,000 to rule with Jesus then that's his will and his number that HE has chosen. HE sounds VERY specific and remember God is organized so he has certain arrangements.
 

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Sad that you only want to believe what you want to believe and it isn’t always the truth..
I use my mind to see how times have changed and how the meaning of words have changed. Like the word gay used to mean happy and now it doesn't mean that anymore. Neither do we use the word "thou" anymore.
She’s more irritating than helpful...she likes to think she knows something but when called on what she thinks she knows refuses to debate.
I don't think I remember reading in the Bible "engage in debates". Debate is something you do more in politics though but that's another subject.
 

phipps

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Just remember that the Bible isn't all symbolism or all literal. It has both. For this specific topic, gotta think about what you read. God wants us to use our minds to discern the words written in His Holy Book.
Not all of the words in the book of John are symbolic. If you read Revelation 21:3,4 do those words make you think it's an illusion for our minds to entertain or will it really happen??
In the times that we live in and all throughout the history of humanity, we REALLY need the kingdom of Yahweh so it absolutely makes sense that he will make all things new and will wipe tears off peoples' eyes and eliminate death and suffering. Plus get rid of evil satan and evil demons.
If Yahweh has chosen 144,000 to rule with Jesus then that's his will and his number that HE has chosen. HE sounds VERY specific and remember God is organized so he has certain arrangements.
I know the whole Bible isn't all symbolism. In fact most of it is literal but the book of Revelation is mostly symbolism. Not all of it but most of it. Chapters 7 and 14 are all symbolic about the 144,000 so how can you decide if the number itself is not symbolic.

No Revelation 21:3,4 is not symbolic. Yes God will destroy Satan and his demons, the wicked, all evil and wipe away all tears, death and suffering. The Kingdom of God will be after Jesus returns when He will be with His people forever and will always be with them after that. Jesus tells us in the Bible His Kingdom is not of this world.

All the righteous will rule with Jesus not just the 144,000. The Bible never says it will be only the 144,000 who will rule with Him.

Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
The dead righteous are the only ones who will take part in the first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?" That all the saved including the 144,000.

Yes God is specific but also the Book of Revelation is His book (Revelation 1:1) and its full of symbols. Why symbols? So that the prophecies of Revelation are not distorted. We must use the Bible to understand the symbols of Revelation. Most of the symbols in Revelation come from the Old Testament.
 
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TokiEl

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Anybody can read the bible. That doesn't mean they're a Christian. Are you going to say an atheist suddenly turns into a Christian just by simply reading it, because I think not. That's why I went more into depth with Gods word so people can understand that simply believing won't get you in his kingdom. I can read just fine, but are you slow?
If you observe the words of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God... you are living in God's will.
 

phipps

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Aren't the 144 000 the Jews
No. There are no 144,000 literal Jews from all the tribes of Israel today. Its impossible they will exist in the end time. In fact there hasn't been literal 144,000 Jews from all the tribes of Israel for thousands of years. 10 tribes were taken into captivity and ceased to exist since then. Judah and Benjamin were also scattered around the world when the Romans attacked Jerusalem after Jesus' ascension, I explain further in this post on this forum.

Also in the New Testament the meaning of Israel changed to involve Gentiles who believed in and followed Christ.

Galatians 3:27-29, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

A true Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew where the Spirit of God is in the heart. This is the truth of God's Word.
 

TokiEl

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You’re not even bothering to answer my questions or address the verses I’ve shown you.

2 Corinthians 3 says that the children of Israel have a vail put over their hearts that won’t be removed until they accept Jesus Christ. How can those who have already accepted Jesus Christ be children of Israel if that’s the case? Please answer that question.
Jews are children of Israel as well.

And God know most jews have been blinded about the truth of Jesus Christ... but God's promise is to make them see Him and repent.

Any day now...
 
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Nope! Noped ya again...lol!
[/QUOTE]
Eh, you're older than me and yet you're kind of a bad example for young folks. That right there was petty. But you know what? We have engaged in too many arguments so I think it's safe to say I forgive you and the others even though your tone of your texts were loud and off. Just wanted to reply to YOU specifically because it looks like every thread you go on, you're always twisting something up, many people even had to block you, but I'll try to regain my patience for you IF we have any other discussions in the future.
 

Lisa

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Nope! Noped ya again...lol!

Eh, you're older than me and yet you're kind of a bad example for young folks. That right there was petty. But you know what? We have engaged in too many arguments so I think it's safe to say I forgive you and the others even though your tone of your texts were loud and off. Just wanted to reply to YOU specifically because it looks like every thread you go on, you're always twisting something up, many people even had to block you, but I'll try to regain my patience for you IF we have any other discussions in the future.
Sometimes I just joke around too...there wasn’t really anything to nope about his comment, but wanted to say I noped ya again...

I doubt we will be able to have discussions in the future...you always run away from them.
 
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TokiEl

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Eh, you're older than me and yet you're kind of a bad example for young folks. That right there was petty. But you know what? We have engaged in too many arguments so I think it's safe to say I forgive you and the others even though your tone of your texts were loud and off. Just wanted to reply to YOU specifically because it looks like every thread you go on, you're always twisting something up, many people even had to block you, but I'll try to regain my patience for you IF we have any other discussions in the future.
Blocking a spokesperson of Jesus Christ is optional.

It's not recommended for truth searchers but for those who don't want or can't handle truths it is ideal.

I got no problem with it.
 

TokiEl

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Did the Thief on the Cross walk with the Lord? Serve Him? Preach the Gospel to all creature? Keep all the laws?

Nope! He didn't have to do anything to show for his salvation other than recognizing who Jesus is and believe.
The penitent thief repented.


Luke 23 46And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.


Anybody who repents will have their sins forgiven and removed.
 

Thunderian

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Galatians 3:27-29, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Does anyone interpret this to mean that, when a person becomes saved, they stop being male or female? No?

Then why do people use that verse to claim that a person stops being black, or white, or Chinese, or Jewish?
 

Lisa

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Does anyone interpret this to mean that, when a person becomes saved, they stop being male or female? No?

Then why do people use that verse to claim that a person stops being black, or white, or Chinese, or Jewish?
Well, in today’s world...they could be more than male or female..;)
 
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