144,000: Literal or symbolic?

[floss]

Since nobody is understanding it, allow me to put it into more detail. If you believe in God and repent, that's good but will it get you saved? Yes, IF you have FAITH in your HEART. If you're repenting just to have proof he exists, then that doesn't count as being saved. THAT was what I was trying to explain. Not only do you have to believe and repent but you have to have faith. You can't just repent WITHOUT faith. So I was actually just trying to add on to it, not much changed.

Now if you don't serve the Lord correctly, and you hardly do his will, or just stop then your name WILL in fact get blotted out the book of life. The "once saved, always saved" thing ain't true. I just want to INFORM people who WANT to know Christ that they had better have faith, and make sure their walk with the Lord is good. OF COURSE we are NOT perfect, so yes we ALL turn lukewarm and/or cold sometimes but as long as we repent with God seeing our TRUE intentions in our hearts, we will be fine. I'd also like to add you can't repent just for the sole purpose of getting a happy ending, you have to TRULY want a relationship with Christ.

So for any lukewarm and/or cold Christians here I advise you look at how your relationship with God is and make sure you become HUMBLE and admit your sins, hide from God no more and lower your pride. If you do not repent, your name will no longer be in the Book Of Life, and you already know what that means.

So all of this above was a more detailed add on, and also a warning. If you cannot understand, then I don't know what's going on with you.

Did the Thief on the Cross walk with the Lord? Serve Him? Preach the Gospel to all creature? Keep all the laws?

Nope! He didn't have to do anything to show for his salvation other than recognizing who Jesus is and believe.

 

[phipps]

Since nobody is understanding it, allow me to put it into more detail. If you believe in God and repent, that's good but will it get you saved? Yes, IF you have FAITH in your HEART. If you're repenting just to have proof he exists, then that doesn't count as being saved. THAT was what I was trying to explain. Not only do you have to believe and repent but you have to have faith. You can't just repent WITHOUT faith. So I was actually just trying to add on to it, not much changed.

Now if you don't serve the Lord correctly, and you hardly do his will, or just stop then your name WILL in fact get blotted out the book of life. The "once saved, always saved" thing ain't true. I just want to INFORM people who WANT to know Christ that they had better have faith, and make sure their walk with the Lord is good. OF COURSE we are NOT perfect, so yes we ALL turn lukewarm and/or cold sometimes but as long as we repent with God seeing our TRUE intentions in our hearts, we will be fine. I'd also like to add you can't repent just for the sole purpose of getting a happy ending, you have to TRULY want a relationship with Christ.

So for any lukewarm and/or cold Christians here I advise you look at how your relationship with God is and make sure you become HUMBLE and admit your sins, hide from God no more and lower your pride. If you do not repent, your name will no longer be in the Book Of Life, and you already know what that means.

So all of this above was a more detailed add on, and also a warning. If you cannot understand, then I don't know what's going on with you.

Exactly. Can I add that Salvation is a gift from God, its not something any of us deserve or can in any way earn. However Salvation comes with conditions. There is more to receiving eternal life than just belief or mental acceptance. Our conviction that He is our Saviour must be more than just a warm, comforting thought or intellectual concept. Jesus warns that simply calling on His name or recognizing Him as “Lord” is not enough (Matthew 7:21). Like the expression says, "Salvation is free but not cheap."

God’s gift of life to us cost Jesus Christ His life. He, the very Son of God, willingly surrendered His life so that we might receive God’s wonderful gift of eternal life. And it cost the Father, who “gave His only begotten Son” (John 3:16). But God expects us to surrender our lives in return, as Jesus states in Luke 14:26-27, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.”

Our love for and commitment to Jesus Christ must be more important to us than any other relationship. Each of us must be willing to bear his “cross,” to faithfully follow Jesus even through life’s most difficult challenges and endure till the end. Only those who endure will make to eternal life.

 

[floss]

Exactly. Can I add that Salvation is a gift from God, its not something any of us deserve or can in any way earn. However Salvation comes with conditions. There is more to receiving eternal life than just belief or mental acceptance. Our conviction that He is our Saviour must be more than just a warm, comforting thought or intellectual concept. Jesus warns that simply calling on His name or recognizing Him as “Lord” is not enough (Matthew 7:21). Like the expression says, "Salvation is free but not cheap."

God’s gift of life to us cost Jesus Christ His life. He, the very Son of God, willingly surrendered His life so that we might receive God’s wonderful gift of eternal life. And it cost the Father, who “gave His only begotten Son” (John 3:16). But God expects us to surrender our lives in return, as Jesus states in Luke 14:26-27, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.”

Our love for and commitment to Jesus Christ must be more important to us than any other relationship. Each of us must be willing to bear his “cross,” to faithfully follow Jesus even through life’s most difficult challenges and endure till the end. Only those who endure will make to eternal life.

Wrong, there are NO strings attached to his grace. What you're saying is only the good Christian make it to eternal life while bad one go to hell for not living up to His standard. In a way you are earning your salvation by believing you have to be good enough to not lose your salvation. Salvation has NOTHING to do with you, God doesn't look at your filthy rags instead he look at Jesus for YOUR redemption. You were NEVER part of the equation.

God doesn't look at your salvation score and say you missed by a couple points, go to hell.

 

[phipps]

Wrong, there are NO strings attached to his grace. What you're saying is only the good Christian make it to eternal life while bad one go to hell for not living up to His standard. In a way you are earning your salvation by believing you have to be good enough to not lose your salvation. Salvation has NOTHING to do with you, God doesn't look at your filthy rags instead he look at Jesus for YOUR redemption. You were NEVER part of the equation.

God doesn't look at your salvation score and say you missed by a couple points, go to hell.

If you don't keep God's commandmets and think just because you once accepted Christ years ago He will excuse your sins you are in for big shock.

Do you remember the wealthy young man who asked Jesus how he could receive eternal life, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16). Christ’s reply, in Matthew 19:17, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus didn’t answer that nothing is required other than believing in God or in Him. He told the young man he must "obey the commandments of God" to receive the gift of eternal life. I think this is a very plain and clear message. How is it you don't get it? Then, when asked which commandments, Jesus quoted from several of the Ten Commandments and another summary commandment from the Old Testament Scriptures.

James points out in the book of James that belief is pointless unless it is backed up by action and obedience, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe —and tremble” (James 2:19). If you think that belief is all you need for salvation, we are sorely mistaken! As James tells us, the demonic spirits fully believe in the existence of the one true God. They further know that Jesus is the Son of God raised from the dead. But the demons’ believing in these facts doesn’t mean they are saved! This is not hard to understand!

Here is more scripture on the subject of once saved always saved.

There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security.

"If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.

"If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.

"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.

"If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.

"If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.

"If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).

"If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

"If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.

"Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.

"If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

Jesus said, "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13. No one will be saved who does not hold out against a course of deliberate sin in the power of God. Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life as I posted above.

You are wrong and either you don't understand the Bible on this subject (which I find hard to believe), or you are ignoring the clear Word of God to continue to believe in your false doctrine. There are conditions to being saved and whether you agree with it or not, it is the truth of God. I don't understand how you can continually persist on something that is so clearly wrong by the Word of God.

 

[floss]

If you don't keep God's commandmets and think just because you once accepted Christ years ago will excuse your sins you are in for big shock.

Do you remember the wealthy young man who asked Jesus how he could receive eternal life, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16). Christ’s reply, in Matthew 19:17, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus didn’t answer that nothing is required other than believing in God or in Him. He told the young man he must "obey the commandments of God" to receive the gift of eternal life. I think this is a very plain and clear message. How is it you don't get it? Then, when asked which commandments, Jesus quoted from several of the Ten Commandments and another summary commandment from the Old Testament Scriptures.

James points out in the book of James that belief is pointless unless it is backed up by action and obedience, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe —and tremble” (James 2:19). If you think that belief is all you need for salvation, we are sorely mistaken! As James tells us, the demonic spirits fully believe in the existence of the one true God. They further know that Jesus is the Son of God raised from the dead. But the demons’ believing in these facts doesn’t mean they are saved! This is not hard to understand!

Here is more scripture on the subject of once saved always saved.

There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security.

"If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.

"If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.

"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.

"If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.

"If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.

"If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).

"If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

"If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.

"Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.

"If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

Jesus said, "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13. No one will be saved who does not hold out against a course of deliberate sin in the power of God. Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life.

You are wrong and either you don't understand the Bible on this subject (which I find hard to believe), or you are ignoring the clear Word of God to continue to believe in your false doctrine. There are conditions to being saved and whether you agree with it or not, it is the truth of God. I don't undeerstand how you can continually persist on something that is so clearly wrong by the Word of God.

Answer this, ONLY those Christians lived up to His standard make it to eternal life?

 

[phipps]

Answer this, ONLY those Christians lived up to His standard make it to eternal life?

No Christian can live up to Christ's standard. However we do our best as the Holy Spirit works in us (and Christ knows if we doing our best) and His righteousness covers us. But belief is never enough as I and @FaithAndStrength have shown you. When we accept Christ and get baptised that is just the beginning of our journey with Him. As we grow and we submit and allow Christ's power to work on us from the inside out we sin less and less. That is called sanctification. We obey the commandments and our works will prove that.

James explains that faith or belief and trust in God and obedience go hand in hand, “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (James 2:20-22).

James’ point here is that works of obedience as a result of our faith maintain our relationship with God and lead to greater faith and obedience, as God requires. Without works as evidence of our faith, our faith is dead —worthless and useless. So if we have a deep relationship with with God, shall we steal, kill, lie, murder etc? Or will our deep faith lead us to do good works? How can one think they are saved while wilfully sinning? Just because they accepted Christ in their past does not excuse their sin. That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[floss]

Do you remember the wealthy young man who asked Jesus how he could receive eternal life, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16). Christ’s reply, in Matthew 19:17, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

This is what happened when you're not born again and lean unto your own understanding, quoting verses out of context.

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I don't have the materials to copy and paste it like you do so I have to break it down manually, sorry for the delays.

Clearly, JESUS knew the heart of this young rich ruler that he will not be save due to his great possession. He has kept all the commandments since he were young because he thought by keeping the laws it will save him (it doesn't). Then Jesus said, If you think you're so perfect, sell and give everything away. He couldn't due to the amount of treasures he has stored up here. Jesus is NOT trying to teach the disciples that by keeping the commandment thou shall be save. Rather, he's teaching that it's HARD for a rich person to be save. Wherever their treasure is, that's where their heart is. Try to preach the Gospel to rich people and see their reaction. I imagine it's something along this line: "no, I'm good" "not interested" "time is money" "got more important things to do"...etc

Then Jesus said, with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, why? Because men will always fail at obtaining salvation on their own way, it has to be GOD's way, not other way around.

Salvation is NOT You + JESUS....It's JESUS period.

 

[Thunderian]

@phipps, @FaithAndStrength and @TokiEl, you all have messages waiting for you on this thread. Do you have answers?

 

[floss]

No Christian can live up to Christ's standard. However we do our best as the Holy Spirit works in us (and Christ knows if we doing our best) and His righteousness covers us. But belief is never enough as I and @FaithAndStrength have shown you. When we accept Christ and get baptised that is just the beginning of our journey with Him. As we grow and we submit and allow Christ's power to work on us from the inside out we sin less and less. That is called sanctification. We obey the commandments and our works will prove that.

James explains that faith or belief and trust in God and obedience go hand in hand, “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (James 2:20-22).

James’ point here is that works of obedience as a result of our faith maintain our relationship with God and lead to greater faith and obedience, as God requires. Without works as evidence of our faith, our faith is dead —worthless and useless. So if we have a deep relationship with with God, shall we steal, kill, lie, murder etc? Or will our deep faith lead us to do good works? How can one think they are saved while wilfully sinning? Just because they accepted Christ in their past does not excuse their sin. That is not what the Bible teaches.

So all you gotta do is try your best then you'll be save?

I think you're confused between Justification, and Sanctification. You only need to be Justified by Faith to be save. Sanctification is a life time process which required a lot of works. Justification (Salvation) is not a process, it's the moment you repent (you didn't believe Jesus, now you do, like the Thief on the Cross). No one here is saying you should ditch Sanctification after you're being Justified.

 

[phipps]

This is what happened when you're not born again and lean unto your own understanding, quoting verses out of context.

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I don't have the materials to copy and paste it like you do so I have to break it down manually, sorry for the delays.

Clearly, JESUS knew the heart of this young rich ruler that he will not be save due to his great possession. He has kept all the commandments since he were young because he thought by keeping the laws it will save him (it doesn't). But when Jesus told him to sell and give everything away, he couldn't due to the amount of treasures he has stored up here. Jesus is NOT trying to teach the disciples that by keeping the commandment thou shall be save. Rather, he's teaching that it's HARD for a rich person to be save. Wherever their treasure is, that's where their heart is. Try to preach the Gospel to rich people and see their reaction. I imagine it's something along this line: "no, I'm good" "not interested" "time is money" "got more important things to do"...etc

Then Jesus said, with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, why? Because men will always fail at obtaining salvation on their own way, it has to be GOD's way, not other way around.

Salvation is NOT You + JESUS....It's JESUS period.

I lean on the Bible, you lean on a doctrine that is taught in most of Christendom but is not based on the Word of God. Many things taught in Christian religions are not based on the Bible. Are you going to ignore all the scripture I showed you? What you saying to me contradicts the clear Word of God I posted above and the Bible does not contradict itself.

All things are possible with God when we make a choice to follow Him and submit to His precepts. If we make our own plans and wilfully sin and think God will support them and look the other way, you are very mistaken. God abhors sin. He loves us but our sin He abhors. He did everything He could to save us from sin.

Your once saved always saved doctrine does not give people choice but the Bible clearly teaches God does. John 10:27-29 is a pivotal passage used for this teaching: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” We make a choice to hear Christ's voice and follow Him and that is how we will get eternal life.

You are misinterpreting and misapplying scripture to agree with your “once saved, always saved” doctrine. One clear scripture is enough to contradict this teaching and show that the teaching is not biblical, yet I have shown you quite a few passages that teach just the opposite of your doctrine. I've shown that we all must meet and continue to meet certain conditions to receiving God’s gift of salvation. But you ignore them all. Do you think you can pick and choose what you can believe in from the Bible?

 

[floss]

I lean on the Bible, you lean on a doctrine that is taught in most of Christendom but is not based on the Word of God. Many things taught in Christian religions are not based on the Bible. Are you going to ignore all the scripture I showed you? What you saying to me contradicts the clear Word of God I posted above and the Bible does not contradict itself.

All things are possible with God when we make a choice to follow Him and submit to His precepts. If we make our own plans and wilfully sin and think God will support them and look the other way, you are very mistaken. God abhors sin. He loves us but our sin He abhors. He did everything He could to save us from sin.

Your once saved always saved doctrine does not give people choice but the Bible clearly teaches God does. John 10:27-29 is a pivotal passage used for this teaching: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” We make a choice to hear Christ's voice and follow Him and that is how we will get eternal life.

You misinterpreting and misapplying scripture to agree with your “once saved, always saved” doctrine. One clear scripture is enough to contradict this teaching and show that the teaching is not biblical, yet I have shown you quite a few passages that teach just the opposite of your doctrine. I've shown that we all must meet and continue to meet certain conditions to receiving God’s gift of salvation. But youu ignore them all. Do you think you can pick and choose what you can believe in from the Bible?

If you can't understand the Rich Young Ruler story then you're not being led by the Holy Spirit. Later

 

[Thunderian]

@phipps, I thought this thread was about the 144,000. It’s funny to read you accusing others of ignoring scripture, when you’re ignoring the entire topic, AND the scripture that opposes your view.

 

[phipps]

So all you gotta do is try your best then you'll be save?

I think you're confused between Justification, and Sanctification. You only need to be Justified by Faith to be save. Sanctification is a life time process which required a lot of works. Justification (Salvation) is not a process, it's the moment you repent (you didn't believe Jesus, now you do, like the Thief on the Cross). No one here is saying you should ditch Sanctification after you're being Justified.

As human beings we can never do anything to Christ's standards. Every time we get more light from the Bible and accept it and allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to change us, we are doing everything we can to submit to Christ. Christ knows us all better than we know ourselves and He knows how much light we all have from His Word and how much we submit to Him and let Him work within us. I didn't think I had to explain this tbh.

I haven't confused sanctification and justification. I know justification is not a process. What I described as growing in Christ starts with justification which leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a process, a life time process. It is God-given power to live a life of obedience but it can be stopped once we choose not to obey and submit to Christ. There a few examples of such people in the Bible. Kings Saul, David, Solomon, Manasseh, the prophet Balaam, Judas Iscariot etc. Some of these repented and some didn't. In king Saul's case, God even stopped communicating with him that he wet to a medium which was banned in his kingdom because God had forbade it and still does.

 

[phipps]

If you can't understand the Rich Young Ruler story then you're not being led by the Holy Spirit. Later

I understand the story but I was interested to Jesus' reply to that one question which is we have to follow the commandments to be saved. There are many lessons to be learnt from that one story. What I told you about it is one aspect of it.

The doctrine of “eternal security” or "once saved always saved" is not found in the pages of the Bible. We must all endure to the end to be saved. And enduring in Jesus' merits and submitting to Him daily.

1 Corinthians 15:2, "by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain."

Hebrews 3:14, "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,"

Hebrews 10:36, "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:"

Revelation 2:26, "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations"

Revelation 3:11, "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

There is so much more scripture to disprove our unbiblical doctrine. There are Jesus' parables of the sower and the ungrateful servant too. We need to stay in the process with God to keep repenting, growing and overcoming with His help.

Are you going to ignore all this clear scripture still? I pray that you accept the Word of God on this subject as it very clear.

 

[Lisa]

Jews are just one tribe of all the children of Israel.

Ten tribes must have mingled with the whole world by now...and so we're all children of Israel by blood.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Haha, I don’t smoke..
No, we are not all children of Israel.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Did the Thief on the Cross walk with the Lord? Serve Him? Preach the Gospel to all creature? Keep all the laws?

Nope! He didn't have to do anything to show for his salvation other than recognizing who Jesus is and believe.

Beware, Satan will be running to and fro in these last days to make God out a liar of His amazing grace, just as he beguiled Eve in the Garden.

 

[floss]

As human beings we can never do anything to Christ's standards. Every time we get more light from the Bible and accept it and allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to change us, we are doing everything we can to submit to Christ. Christ knows us all better than we know ourselves and He knows how much light we all have from His Word and how much we submit to Him and let Him work within us. I didn't think I had to explain this tbh.

I haven't confused sanctification and justification. I know justification is not a process. What I described as growing in Christ starts with justification which leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a process, a life time process. It is God-given power to live a life of obedience but it can be stopped once we choose not to obey and submit to Christ. There a few examples of such people in the Bible. Kings Saul, David, Solomon, Manasseh, the prophet Balaam, Judas Iscariot etc. Some of these repented and some didn't. In king Saul's case, God even stopped communicating with him that he wet to a medium which was banned in his kingdom because God had forbade it and still does.

Here is why you are confused about Justification and Sanctification. You believe one needed to be Justified AND Sanctified to make it. Wrong! The thief on the cross was NEVER sanctified but rather justified because he simply believe.
- King Saul is saved
- Judas was never justified/saved to begin with
I'm not going to reply to everything that you simply copy and paste, just send us the link where you copy it from.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

@phipps, @FaithAndStrength and @TokiEl, you all have messages waiting for you on this thread. Do you have answers?

1. We still have lives, we can't answer immediately, and if we don't answer immediately, do not assume it's because we have no words.
2. You sound like you're debating. I will not be debating anything with you.
3. I already told you you're leaning on your own understanding but you ignored it because you knew it was true, therefore I really don't have to answer you because it'll turn into a debate just as you're doing right now. If you understood with the Lords knowledge then you wouldn't even be doing this.
4. I already seen those messages. Those people STILL don't understand it, if you think God is a happy go lucky God who will save you even if you turn your back on him and DON'T repent then you're in for a treat once you stand before him. Considering you believe once saved always saved is the true way to go, you're putting yourself in danger.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

Beware, Satan will be running to and fro in these last days to make God out a liar of His amazing grace, just as he beguiled Eve in the Garden.

Beware he also causes confusion in the last days. Make sure you walk wisely. Still, most people here excluding Phipps and maybe Toeki believe you can be saved even if you turn your back on him, if you're one of those then you, yourself will have to beware very cautiously.

 

[Thunderian]

1. We still have lives, we can't answer immediately, and if we don't answer immediately, do not assume it's because we have no words.
2. You sound like you're debating. I will not be debating anything with you.
3. I already told you you're leaning on your own understanding but you ignored it because you knew it was true, therefore I really don't have to answer you because it'll turn into a debate just as you're doing right now. If you understood with the Lords knowledge then you wouldn't even be doing this.
4. I already seen those messages. Those people STILL don't understand it, if you think God is a happy go lucky God who will save you even if you turn your back on him and DON'T repent then you're in for a treat once you stand before him. Considering you believe once saved always saved is the true way to go, you're putting yourself in danger.

If you want to have credibility, here’s some advice: Don’t post in threads if you can’t follow through.

Explaining in point form why you aren’t answering my challenge to your statements about me, because you don’t have the time, makes it pretty clear that what you really don’t have is answers.

Just as a reminder, you told me that I cut and paste my posts, that I am merely offering my opinion on this subject, and that I don’t understand the verses in the Bible about it.

So far, you haven’t actually addressed any specific points I’ve made, but you’ve managed long posts on a subject — salvation — that is not even the focus of this thread.

For the love of the truth, I would think you’d be happy to show me where I’m wrong on this, but so far, you have just come up with reasons not to answer me. I think it’s because you really don’t know what you’re talking about, but here you have an opportunity to prove me wrong. Please take it.