144,000: Literal or symbolic?

[phipps]

The text in Revelation 7:4 was written by the apostle John. It is prophetic, yet not typical prophecy. The context is apocalyptic. The Greek word apokalypsis means “revelation”, “disclosure” or “unveiling”.

The “revelation” about the 144,000 is exciting yet mingled with hesitance because the “unveiling” has not been entirely completed. Therefore, we should avoid speculation or an attempt to make the 144,000 an exclusive club.

In Revelation 6:12-16, John describes the apocalyptic events that precede the advent of Jesus Christ. In verse 17 the question is raised, “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The responding “disclosure” is in Revelation 7. John “unveils” the 144,000 as saints who will stand triumphant, undeterred, undefiled and victorious when Jesus returns to earth.

As an apocalyptic prophecy, Revelation 7 is full of symbols. We do not see four angels holding back the literal winds of strife, do we? (7:1). Nor do we see an angel placing a literal mark on the foreheads of God’s children (7:2-3). Just imagine what people would think if they saw us following an actual lamb or not getting married as a sign of our loyalty to God (14:4). The figures of speech in Revelation 7 are symbolic. So why would we interpret the 144,000 differently? We must be consistent in our interpretation.

The 144,000 is an all-inclusive group of faithful followers who love Jesus and are obedient to His commandments (14:4-5). They conquer the image of the beast, endure persecution (7:1-3; cf. 14:9-11; 13:15-18), stand victorious with Jesus Christ and sing the triumphant song of their experience with God (14:3). The number is therefore symbolic of God’s end-time universal church who make up spiritual Israel (7:4-8). They are the remnants who survive the shifting in Laodicea (3:14-22) and include those who respond to the loud cry of the third angel’s message when the image of the beast becomes law (15:2).

As “first fruits” of the final harvest, the 144,000 are part of a much more abundant harvest of people from the earth, beginning with Adam and Eve and including every soul who accepts Jesus Christ before the close of human probation. Individuals will be gathered before God from all nations of the earth. Those redeemed will be an enormous multitude of people no-one can count (7:9). They will celebrate before God and the throne day and night (7:10-12).

We should not worry ourselves with numbers. Space is not a problem for God. The 144,000 is only symbolic of saints portrayed in the Bible as faithful to God and ready to meet Jesus face-to-face at the end of time. There is room for everyone who accepts Jesus Christ today as Lord and Saviour.

The 144,000 are faithful followers of Jesus Christ who make up the end-time universal church of God. The focus will not be national, genetic or denominational but instead on faith and loyalty to the reign of God in our lives.

Our responsibility then is not to worry about who makes up the 144,000. It only leads to a spirit of judgement and criticism. Instead, let’s strive to be among the 144,000 saints who will live to witness the return of Jesus Christ. We must be faithful to the daily reign of God in our lives in anticipation of His eternal kingdom.

 

[Phithx]

Probably literal if compared to:

2 Esdras
9:15 I have said before, and now do speak, and will speak it also hereafter, that there be many more of them which perish, than of them which shall be saved:
9:16 Like as a wave is greater than a drop.

 

[phipps]

Probably literal if compared to:

2 Esdras
9:15 I have said before, and now do speak, and will speak it also hereafter, that there be many more of them which perish, than of them which shall be saved:
9:16 Like as a wave is greater than a drop.

I don't know the book of Esdras nor is it part of scripture. It doesn't count. The 144,000 is symbolic. Chapters 7 and 14 of Revelation are symbolic not literal. The whole Book of Revelation is symbolic.

 

[phipps]

The Number 144,000 is symbolic.

Revelation is a book that contains symbolic prophecy. In Revelation, numbers can also be symbolic. For example, the Book of Revelation is based on the Old Testament and in order to understand it right, we must always go back to the Old Testament. The Book of Daniel is very closely connected with the Book of Revelation. We cannot understand Revelation without the Book of Daniel. Likewise with many of the other great books of the Old Testament they are necessary for the understanding of the Book of Revelation.

Now the Old Testament method of counting, was not by counting single individuals but by counting the heads of families. Therefore when Revelation speaks of 144,000 it could mean 144,000 heads of families. If this is correct then 144,000 could involve many more people.


The Number 12

Another point to consider is that the number 144,000 is a multiple if 12. 12 is the number of the Church of God throughout scripture especially concerning Church government and leadership.

There were 12 tribes, 12 patriarchs, 12 apostles, and the number 144,000 is the number of the remnant Church in the last days. It is a multiple of 12. 12 is associated right through scripture with Church government. The number of Patriarchs before the flood was 12. After the flood there were 12 Patriarchs too. The Church in the wilderness consisted of 12 tribes. Actually there were 13 tribes altogether, if you count the Levites, but only 12 are ever mentioned because 12 denotes the number of God's Church.

There were 12 judges of Israel and 12 apostles in the early Church. The New Jerusalem, mentioned in Revelation 21 and 22 has the number 12 mentioned 12 times. This includes the number 144 of Revelation 21:17 which in the original is 12 x 12.

The number 12 denotes rulership and it is connected with Israel which means "God ruled". The number 144,000 therefore is a symbolic number of the Remnant that stand ready for the second advent.

In Revelation 7 there are two tribes missing in the list. These are the tribes of Dan and Ephraim. The reason that these two names are missing is because they persisted in disobedience.

It is important to note that the order of the names of the tribes given in Revelation 7 is also very significant. In the Old Testament the list of the 12 tribe always starts with Reuben, the first born son. But in Revelation we find that the tribes are not listed in order of birth. What is the reason? The order of names given in Revelation conveys a very significant message.

Rachel and Leah made prophetic statements for all 12 of Jacob's sons. Here are the names of the tribes that make up the 144,000 (in the order listed in Revelation chapter 7), together with the meaning of each name:

1. Judah = "I will praise the Lord"
2. Reuben = "He has looked on me"
3. Gad = "Granted good fortune"
4. Asher = "Happy am I"
5. Naphtali = "My wrestling"
6. Manasseh = "Making me to forget"
7. Simeon = "God hears me"
8. Levi = "Joined to me"
9. Issachar = "Purchased Me"
10. Zebulun = "Dwelling"
11. Joseph = "God will add to me"
12. Benjamin = "Son of His right hand"

Now notice what happens when the meaning of the names are combined, in the same order, into a paragraph:

"I will praise the Lord for He has looked on me and granted good fortune. Happy am I because my wrestling God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling. God will add to me the Son of His right hand."

This is the description of the condition which the 144,000 will reach by the Grace of Jesus Christ in the last days.

 

[Phithx]

I don't know the book of Esdras nor is it part of scripture. It doesn't count. The 144,000 is symbolic. Chapters 7 and 14 of Revelation are symbolic not literal. The whole Book of Revelation is symbolic.

Okay.

You may be interested: this author has found the meaning of the 4 beasts of Revelation:

From the website: The Book of Kells:

"There is a lot of nonsense talked about the four symbols that are used in the Book of Kells:- LION; MAN; CALF and EAGLE. Most historians say that they are supposed to represent the four Apostles. They do NOT represent the Apostles but represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to whom the Apostles were sent, by Christ.

The four symbols are the four Brigade-Emblems of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who camped around "The Tabernacle" in the wilderness during their "forty year punishment and wandering", in the wilderness under Moses.


The 4 symbols Plan of Tabernacle Emcampment

The encampment was square, with three tribes camped on each of the four sides. The centre tribe of the three, on each side was the Brigade-Leader, so their standard was the dominant one, on each of the four sides. Those four tribes were Judah; Reuben; Joseph/Ephraim and Dan.

Judah's standard is a LION; Reuben's standard is a MAN; Joseph / Ephraim's standard is a wild-ox CALF (which today has become a Unicorn) and Dan's standard is an EAGLE.

The Irish people are mostly descended from Dan and came to Ireland at various times, under various names, as they migrated by different routes and arrived at different times, having picked up new names along the way. One of those names makes their identity more obvious than the others and that name is the Tuatha de Danaan - the Tribe of Dan; who was the fifth of Jacob/Israel's twelve sons. Jacob/Israel's twelve sons fathered the twelve tribes of Israel.

Prior to the De Danaans were the Nemidhians (Sons of Heaven) who came from Carthage which was a Phoenician Danite settlement or Sanctuary (Nemidh), in what is now Tunisia. The Phoenician sailors of ancient history were mostly Israelites from the tribes of Dan; Gad and Simeon. Phoenicia was a region not a country, just as Europe is a region and not a country.

After the Tuatha de Danaans came to Ireland, there were, at various times, further immigrations of Danites under the name Milesians (sons of Mil, who was a Danite warrior, from which the name milesian later came to mean warrior) and of course later still as Dan-ish Vikings and Norsemen.

The EAGLE is the tribal-standard or ensign/emblem of Dan and the Danites discovered America in the B.C. era and again as Vikings (Eric the Red; Leif Ericsson; etc.), long before Columbus*, and later helped to populate it as Irish immigrants, which is why there is Dan's Eagle holding the "Olive" and "Arrows" of Joseph their brother (Joseph's secondary emblems), on the American Coat-of-Arms.

* Tradegoods from ancient Carthage have been found in various locations in North America, as recorded in a book written by an eminent Harvard University professor called Barry Fell.



The Official Emblem of the U.S. A.

The four tribal standards previously mentioned as being on the pages of the famous Book of Kells are also mentioned by Christ to his Apostle John in Christ's Apocalypse/Revelation.

Revelation/Apocalypse 4:6 And before the Throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the Throne, and round about the Throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
4:7 And the first beast [was] like a LION (Judah), and the second beast like a CALF (Ephraim), and the third beast had a face as a MAN (Reuben), and the fourth beast [was] like a flying EAGLE (Dan).
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; (three tribes - each tribe with two wings) and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
4:9 And WHEN those (four) beasts (12 tribes) give glory and honour and thanks to Him that sat on the Throne, Who liveth for ever and ever,
4:10 The four and twenty elders (the Prophets) fall down before Him that sat on the Throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast THEIR crowns before the Throne, saying,
4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."

 

[phipps]

Okay.

You may be interested: this author has found the meaning of the 4 beasts of Revelation:

From The Book of Kells:

"There is a lot of nonsense talked about the four symbols that are used in the Book of Kells:- LION; MAN; CALF and EAGLE. Most historians say that they are supposed to represent the four Apostles. They do NOT represent the Apostles but represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to whom the Apostles were sent, by Christ.

The four symbols are the four Brigade-Emblems of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who camped around "The Tabernacle" in the wilderness during their "forty year punishment and wandering", in the wilderness under Moses.

View attachment 29877 View attachment 29878
The 4 symbols Plan of Tabernacle Emcampment

The encampment was square, with three tribes camped on each of the four sides. The centre tribe of the three, on each side was the Brigade-Leader, so their standard was the dominant one, on each of the four sides. Those four tribes were Judah; Reuben; Joseph/Ephraim and Dan.

Judah's standard is a LION; Reuben's standard is a MAN; Joseph / Ephraim's standard is a wild-ox CALF (which today has become a Unicorn) and Dan's standard is an EAGLE.

The Irish people are mostly descended from Dan and came to Ireland at various times, under various names, as they migrated by different routes and arrived at different times, having picked up new names along the way. One of those names makes their identity more obvious than the others and that name is the Tuatha de Danaan - the Tribe of Dan; who was the fifth of Jacob/Israel's twelve sons. Jacob/Israel's twelve sons fathered the twelve tribes of Israel.

Prior to the De Danaans were the Nemidhians (Sons of Heaven) who came from Carthage which was a Phoenician Danite settlement or Sanctuary (Nemidh), in what is now Tunisia. The Phoenician sailors of ancient history were mostly Israelites from the tribes of Dan; Gad and Simeon. Phoenicia was a region not a country, just as Europe is a region and not a country.

After the Tuatha de Danaans came to Ireland, there were, at various times, further immigrations of Danites under the name Milesians (sons of Mil, who was a Danite warrior, from which the name milesian later came to mean warrior) and of course later still as Dan-ish Vikings and Norsemen.

The EAGLE is the tribal-standard or ensign/emblem of Dan and the Danites discovered America in the B.C. era and again as Vikings (Eric the Red; Leif Ericsson; etc.), long before Columbus*, and later helped to populate it as Irish immigrants, which is why there is Dan's Eagle holding the "Olive" and "Arrows" of Joseph their brother (Joseph's secondary emblems), on the American Coat-of-Arms.

* Tradegoods from ancient Carthage have been found in various locations in North America, as recorded in a book written by an eminent Harvard University professor called Barry Fell.

View attachment 29879

The Official Emblem of the U.S. A.

The four tribal standards previously mentioned as being on the pages of the famous Book of Kells are also mentioned by Christ to his Apostle John in Christ's Apocalypse/Revelation.

Revelation/Apocalypse 4:6 And before the Throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the Throne, and round about the Throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
4:7 And the first beast [was] like a LION (Judah), and the second beast like a CALF (Ephraim), and the third beast had a face as a MAN (Reuben), and the fourth beast [was] like a flying EAGLE (Dan).
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; (three tribes - each tribe with two wings) and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
4:9 And WHEN those (four) beasts (12 tribes) give glory and honour and thanks to Him that sat on the Throne, Who liveth for ever and ever,
4:10 The four and twenty elders (the Prophets) fall down before Him that sat on the Throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast THEIR crowns before the Throne, saying,
4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."

I've never heard of the Book of Kellis either and its not scriptural too. I agree with parts of it though. I suppose the devil distorted those emblems. That's what he does.

However there is more and deeper meaning to Revelation 4 and the four creatures. The vision is talking about a special order of angels who are always in the presence of God. The four faces represent four different aspects of God particularly Jesus Christ. The lion denotes kingliness or royalty, the man represents humanity and that involves priesthood and mediation. The ox represents service and sacrifice and the eagle represents deity or divinity. Each face of the four creatures also represents the head of its family. The lion is king of the beasts, man is the head of humanity, the ox head of cattle and the eagle king of birds. This portrays God as King of kings and Lord of lords.

I agree that that the twelve tribes of Israel were divided into four groups. Judah's lion, Ephraim's ox, Reuben's face of a man and Dan's eagle. These standards were the symbols of the coming Messiah. In the New Testament, after the Messiah came, we find in the gospels the same symbols brought to view. In the gospel of Matthew we have Jesus represented as the lion, as King. In Mark's gospel Jesus is presented as the ox, as servant and sacrifice. In Luke we have Jesus presented as the Son of man, representing His humanity. In the gospel of John, we have Jesus as the eagle, representing His Deity, His Divinity. These symbols also represent Jesus' traits of courage, bravery, patience, sympathy and aspiration. While Jesus was on earth He fulfilled these beautiful characteristics.

I love that the four creatures continually worship God. Why? Because God made us. He has the sole right to call for complete obedience, because He created us. This is the basic reason for worship, for submission to God. Why did God create us? Verse 11, "and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

This is not part of what I'm posting though.

 

[Phithx]

I've never heard of the Book of Kellis either and its not scriptural too. I agree with parts of it and I suppose the devil distorted those emblems. That's what he does.

Or he didn't, and the history is correct.

However there is more and deeper meaning to Revelation 4 and the four creatures. The vision is talking about a special order of angels who are always in the presence of God. The four faces represent four different aspects of God particularly Jesus Christ. The lion denotes kingliness or royalty, the man represents humanity and that involves priesthood and mediation. The ox represents service and sacrifice and the eagle represents deity or divinity. Each face of the four creatures also represents the head of its family. The lion is king of the beasts, man is the head of humanity, the ox head of cattle and the eagle king of birds. This portrays God as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Maybe?

I agree that that the twelve tribes of Israel were divided into four groups. Judah's lion, Ephraim's ox, Reuben's face of a man and Dan's eagle. These standards were the symbols of the coming Messiah. In the New Testament, after the Messiah came, we find in the gospels the same symbols brought to view. In the gospel of Matthew we have Jesus represented as the lion, as King. In Mark's gospel Jesus is presented as the ox, as servant and sacrifice. In Luke we have Jesus presented as the Son of man, representing His humanity. In the gospel of John, we have Jesus as the eagle, representing His Deity, His Divinity. These symbols also represent Jesus' traits of courage, bravery, patience, sympathy and aspiration. While Jesus was on earth He fulfilled these beautiful characteristics.

Could be?

I love that the four creatures continually worship God. This is not part of what I'm posting though.

Yes, it's very interesting.

 

[phipps]

Or he didn't, and the history is correct.



Maybe?



Could be?



Yes, it's very interesting.

Or he didn't, and the history is correct.

I haven't denied the history. I was talking about how the emblems are used for pagan people who were not Israelites.

Maybe? Could be?

There are always deeper meanings to anything in the Bible as I've just explained. Everything about the living creatures is deep and intriguing. In the book of Ezekiel he also describes the four living creatures.

Ezekiel 1:18, "As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four."

Ezekiel 10:12, "And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had."

Ezekiel calls the four living creatures, cherubim. Ezekiel 10:20, "This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims."

They are described as having the faces of a lion, an ox or calf, a man and an eagle. Ezekiel indicates that they each have four different faces. Ezekiel 1:10, "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle."

I could explain more about what the eyes all around mean, the wings etc but I don't want to get into it here. Its a long subject.

 

[Phithx]

I haven't denied the history. I was talking about how the emblems are used for pagan people who were not Israelites.



There are always deeper meanings to anything in the Bible as I've just explained. Everything about the living creatures is deep and intriguing. In the book of Ezekiel the also describes the four living creatures.

Ezekiel 1:18, "As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four."

Ezekiel 10:12, "And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had."

Ezekiel calls the four living creatures, cherubim. Ezekiel 10:20, "This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims."

They are described as having the faces of a lion, an ox or calf, a man and an eagle. Ezekiel indicates that they each have four different faces. Ezekiel 1:10, "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle."

I could explain more about what the eyes all around mean, the wings etc but I don't want to get into it here. Its a long subject.

Understood, thank-you.

 

[phipps]

When we read Revelation 7, it reveals that the 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel. In the New Testament era an Israelite is a true Christian. This means the one who is "born again", a true child of God, has the praise of God, he/she is an Israelite. Why does Revelation mention the twelve tribes and a certain number from each tribe? In scripture, names are significant. A name denotes character and the name of the tribe represents the particular characteristics of that section of the 144,000. When we examine Revelation 7 we find two of the tribes are missing. These are Dan and Ephraim. Those two tribes were unfaithful and therefore not counted amongst the people of God in the last days.

The term Israel has a spiritual significance. The word Israel means 'overcomer', 'a prince with God', or one who is 'God ruled'. This represents God's people through the ages who have given themselves to Jesus Christ, who have accepted Him as their King and have been ruled as it were, by Christ.

The 144,000 also are a special group in the Christian Church of various characters, who have overcome, who have allowed God to rule in their lives. they have overcome the evil conditions of the world in the last days and are victorious in Christ.

Revelation 7:4, "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

This reveals the period of time in which the 144,000 exist. The final seal of God is given at the close of probation just before Jesus returns.

 

[Lisa]

Literal Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.

 

[A Freeman]

Christ, in His Revelation to John, clearly stated the 144,000 who are redeemed from the Earth is literal.

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Many have wrongly assumed that the 144,000 are symbolic, or that they are the "Jews" and/or there will be a "great multitude" saved in addition to the 144,000. But that is NOT what the verses above say.

John was shown ("beheld") the 144,000 assembled before The Throne and then was told the number because there was no way he could take a head count of 144,000 people. Could anyone?

Most have been to a public sporting venue where thousands of sports fans are gathered together. In the U.S., there are collegiate football stadiums that hold over 100,000. No one could possibly count all of those people, which is why the day's official attendance is announced after figures from the gates are tallied.

And the next two verses prove that all three references are very clearly stating there will be 144,000--and ONLY 144,000--who are redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Which is why Christ, when He was here in the body of Jesus, said the following:-

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:23-24
13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
13:24 Strive to enter in at the "Strait Gate": for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 24:37-39
24:37 But as the days of Noah [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before The Flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until The Flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

Noah spent decades building a boat in his backyard the size of a small aircraft carrier while warning everyone the flood was coming. Nobody but Noah's immediate family - 8 people - listened, believed and boarded the Ark; everyone else DIED.

These final days before The Fire will be as the days of Noah according to Christ. So thinking that there will be more than 144,000 redeemed, when Christ says there won't be anymore than that, is not only unwise, but fatal.

So please, for Christ's sake, repent and return to keeping The Law that God gave us. Those who continue in sin (breaking The Law) WILL burn (Ezek, 18:4, 20, Mal. 4, Rom. 6:23, Rev. 21:8).

 

[phipps]

Literal Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.

I don't even think there are 12000 literal Jews in the world today let alone 144,000.

The Jews who live in the state of Israel are mainly of European descent. Thank God anyone who is faithful from around the world can be part of the 144,000.

 

[phipps]

Christ, in His Revelation to John, clearly stated the 144,000 who are redeemed from the Earth is literal.

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Many have wrongly assumed that the 144,000 are symbolic, or that they are the "Jews" and/or there will be a "great multitude" saved in addition to the 144,000. But that is NOT what the verses above say.

John was shown ("beheld") the 144,000 assembled before The Throne and then was told the number because there was no way he could take a head count of 144,000 people. Could anyone?

Most have been to a public sporting venue where thousands of sports fans are gathered together. In the U.S., there are collegiate football stadiums that hold over 100,000. No one could possibly count all of those people, which is why the day's official attendance is announced after figures from the gates are tallied.

And the next two verses prove that all three references are very clearly stating there will be 144,000--and ONLY 144,000--who are redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Which is why Christ, when He was here in the body of Jesus, said the following:-

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:23-24
13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
13:24 Strive to enter in at the "Strait Gate": for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 24:37-39
24:37 But as the days of Noah [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before The Flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until The Flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

Noah spent decades building a boat in his backyard the size of a small aircraft carrier while warning everyone the flood was coming. Nobody but Noah's immediate family - 8 people - listened, believed and boarded the Ark; everyone else DIED.

These final days before The Fire will be as the days of Noah according to Christ. So thinking that there will be more than 144,000 redeemed, when Christ says there won't be anymore than that, is not only unwise, but fatal.

So please, for Christ's sake, repent and return to keeping The Law that God gave us. Those who continue in sin (breaking The Law) WILL burn (Ezek, 18:4, 20, Mal. 4, Rom. 6:23, Rev. 21:8).

John never says the 144,000 are literal. As I posted in my first post, "As an apocalyptic prophecy, Revelation 7 is full of symbols. We do not see four angels holding back the literal winds of strife, do we? (7:1). Nor do we see an angel placing a literal mark on the foreheads of God’s children (7:2-3). Just imagine what people would think if they saw us following an actual lamb or not getting married as a sign of our loyalty to God (14:4). The figures of speech in Revelation 7 are symbolic. So why would we interpret the 144,000 differently? We must be consistent in our interpretation."

 

[phipps]

Revelation 7:14, "And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This multitude have come through great adversity. Their characters have been purified through “the blood of the Lamb.” 1 John 1:7. If we are in Christ, we will have strength to go through any affliction. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” Philippians 4:13. He will give us peace, grace, and strength of character to live in the last days of earth’s history!

The 144,000 also sing the song of Moses and the lamb in Revelation 15:2-3. What is the song of Moses? It was song sung by Israel after they had passed through the divided waters of the Red sea when God marvellously delivered them from Egyptian bondage. When Israel looked back and saw their enemies destroyed and realised that after hundreds of years of cruel captivity they were forever free, they burst into a song of gratitude. The song of Moses represents deliverance from earthly foes.

But what about the song of the lamb? This song is the song of deliverance from spiritual foes, from Satan, and the bondage of sin. Thus the song of Moses and the Lamb that the 144,000 will sing, will be a song of their experience. Now the scripture indicates that all redeemed will sing the song of Moses and the Lamb because all have been delivered by the Lamb. All have been delivered from spiritual foes.

But all the redeemed will sing only a part of the song, because a special section of the song, the 144,000 alone can sing, for no man could learn that song but the 144,000. Revelation 14:3. They sing a particular portion of it because they have gone through an experience that no other group on earth has passed through before. They will be delivered from the beast and his image. They will be delivered from earthly powers that have united together against God in the last days. They will be delivered from the evil world that will be intent on destroying them. And of course like the rest of the redeemed they also have been delivered from the guilt and power of sin.

Revelation 15:2, "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

What a song that will be! A song of marvellous deliverance.

 

[phipps]

The 144,000 do not experience death.

Revelation 14:3-4, "...were redeemed from the earth. These were redeemed from among men..."

The 144,000 are redeemed from among the living. In other words they do not die. Speaking of the righteous dead who will be resurrected, the prophet says, "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13:14. But the 144,000 will be redeemed from the earth, from among men, from the living. Therefore they do not see death. They are living at the time Christ returns and behold Him when the heavens part asunder. They see a small dark cloud turn into a glorious white cloud. This doesn't mean that only the 144,000 will see Christ come.

Revelation 14:4, "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."

Some have concluded that the 144,000 must all be males but in the Greek "virgins" applies to both male and female. It does not mean that the 144,000 are unmarried because scripture is clear that marriage does not defile.

Hebrews 13:4, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

What then is the significance of the statement, "they are virgins"? There are two reasons. The first reason is they are morally pure. The blood of Christ has cleansed them from all sin. In a time of extreme moral corruption and perversion, the 144,000 have resisted the all-pervading immorality and have overcome.

The Second reason is that women in prophecy represent churches. When we read Revelation 17 there is brought to view, "Babylon the great", the counterfeit religious organisation inspired by Satan. She is called "the Mother of Harlots". This means that there are daughters, daughter churches who are following in the steps of the mother church. The mother church is none other than the Church of Rome and the harlot daughters are those churches that came out of Rome but now follow in the Mother's footsteps. These are the apostate churches of Protestantism. The 144,000 "are not defiled with women". They are not defiled with harlot churches of Christendom. In other words, the 144,000 have come out of Babylon. They have obeyed the call:

Revelation 18:4, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The 144,000 have not been defiled by the false doctrines and practices of spiritual Babylon.

 

[Lisa]

I don't even think there are 12000 literal Jews in the world today let alone 144,000.

The Jews who live in the state of Israel are mainly of European descent. Thank God anyone who is faithful from around the world can be part of the 144,000.

Don’t worry, there are at least that many Jews in the world.

No, the 144,000 isn’t about anyone other than Jews.

Sure, anyone can believe in God, even the Jews, but the 144,000 is for the Jews only and we have the big clue that tells us this is literal where it tells us they come from the tribes, 12,000 from each tribe.

You really aren’t seeing things correctly @phipps.

 

[phipps]

Don’t worry, there are at least that many Jews in the world.

No, the 144,000 isn’t about anyone other than Jews.

Sure, anyone can believe in God, even the Jews, but the 144,000 is for the Jews only and we have the big clue that tells us this is literal where it tells us they come from the tribes, 12,000 from each tribe.

You really aren’t seeing things correctly @phipps.

They are not. Why? Because the 10 tribes were completely destroyed by the Assyrians and have never existed again. They were scattered and intermarried with other nations and ceased to exist (2 Kings 17:6). So where are 12,000 pure Israelites from the ten northern tribes of Israel going to come from to make up the 144,000 eh? A genealogist would be hard pressed to find even one vaguely pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon—much less 12,000! In fact, because these tribes were so thoroughly scattered around the world and assimilated by their host nations, it is very possible even you have traces of Abraham in your bloodline! I posted this before. They don't exist.

Later Judah was destroyed too after Jesus' ascension to heaven and Jews were scattered because they had rejected Christ once and for all. I doubt there are 12000 Jews from the tribe of Judah and 12000 from the tribe of Benjamin that exist today. Also Benjamin was a really small tribe. it couldn't possibly have the same number of people as Judah could it?

The 144,000 will not be literal Jews, they will be spiritual Jews not the Israel of the flesh.

You ignore the Word of God which tells us who a Jew is in the New Testament (Galatians 3:29, Romans 2:28-29). Gentiles were grafted into Israel.

You ignore that there is no third temple in the Bible but there is a temple in heaven in which Jesus is our mediator and High Priest as the book of Hebrews explains. The duties that were carried on by the earthly high priest have been taken on by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:23, "Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." So there is no point to having an earthly temple and it will be completely useless.

You ignore the fact that the Bible clearly says Jesus died once and for all for our sins (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:26-27, 1 Peter 3:18) and that means if an earthly temple is rebuilt, the Jews will be rejecting Christ if they restore the animal sacrificial system that represented His death.

Hebrews 10:4,14, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

I believe you are a sincere Christian but you are sincerely wrong on this subject. You're the one not connecting the dots and seeing the truth of God's Word. What you believe is not from the Word of God. Your doctrine is completely false. I won't say any more to you on this subject again. I pray that God reveals the truth to you and that you stop fighting the little that has been revealed to you.

 

[Lisa]

They are not. Why? Because the 10 tribes were completely destroyed by the Assyrians and have never existed again. They were scattered and intermarried with other nations and ceased to exist (2 Kings 17:6). So where are 12,000 pure Israelites from the ten northern tribes of Israel going to come from to make up the 144,000 eh? A genealogist would be hard pressed to find even one vaguely pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon—much less 12,000! In fact, because these tribes were so thoroughly scattered around the world and assimilated by their host nations, it is very possible even you have traces of Abraham in your bloodline! I posted this before. They don't exist.

Later Judah was destroyed too after Jesus' ascension to heaven and Jews were scattered because they had rejected Christ once and for all. I doubt there are 12000 Jews from the tribe of Judah and 12000 from the tribe of Benjamin that exist today. Also Benjamin was a really small tribe. it couldn't possibly have the same number of people as Judah could it?

The 144,000 will not be literal Jews, they will be spiritual Jews not the Israel of the flesh.

You ignore the Word of God which tells us who a Jew is in the New Testament (Galatians 3:29, Romans 2:28-29). Gentiles were grafted into Israel.

You ignore that there is no third temple in the Bible but there is a temple in heaven in which Jesus is our mediator and High Priest as the book of Hebrews explains. The duties that were carried on by the earthly high priest have been taken on by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:23, "Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." So there is no point to having an earthly temple and it will be completely useless.

You ignore the fact that the Bible clearly says Jesus died once and for all for our sins (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:26-27, 1 Peter 3:18) and that means if an earthly temple is rebuilt, the Jews will be rejecting Christ if they restore the animal sacrificial system that represented His death.

Hebrews 10:4,14, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

I believe you are a sincere Christian but you are sincerely wrong on this subject. You're the one not connecting the dots and seeing the truth of God's Word. What you believe is not from the Word of God. Your doctrine is completely false. I won't say any more to you on this subject again. I pray that God reveals the truth to you and that you stop fighting the little that has been revealed to you.

God knows who His chosen people are and He’s got them in Israel right now. You don’t give Hid any credit for bringing His people back in the land He gave to them. Are you telling me that God can’t do that?

The gentiles are grafted in but that doesn’t make them new Israel...they are a part of the covenant now but God still has His chosen people.

There is going to be a third temple...in fact the treaty that makes the temple possible will start the last 7 years. There will be sacrifices again in Israel in a temple and in the middle of the treaty the antichrist will break they treaty and he will commit the abomination of desolation.

I don’t ignore that Jesus died once for all for sins but at least I don’t ignore that God still has a plan for His chosen people and didn’t just abandon them and break His covenant with Abraham...like you do.

You are a mormon..aren’t ya phipps? I don’t know why I didn’t see it before. You are the one who is in the wrong here and in other things. It’s you who need to look at your doctrine because yours is the one that is wrong and even the way you ignore blatant truth like Romans 11..is so strange to me. The truth is staring you in the face but you won’t see it.

 

[phipps]

The next point concerning the 144,000 is, "These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14:4.

What is meant by the firstfruits? It means first in importance, not necessarily the first in regard to time. Jesus Christ is described as "the firstfruits of them that slept" (the dead), 1 Corinthians 15:20. Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead but He was the first in importance to rise from the dead. Because of His resurrection, all others can be raised. "Because I live, you will live also" John 14:19. In the Old Testament the firstfruits were the best fruits or the chief fruits of the crop, not necessarily the earliest of the fruit.

Numbers 18:12, “All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee."

Ezekiel 44:30, "And the first of all the firstfruits of all things..."

This means then that the 144,00 are not just the first to be reaped, in the great harvest at the Second Advent of Christ, but they also represent the best of the harvest. The 144,000 are without fault.

Revelation 14:5, "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

This tells us what God plans to accomplish with the last generation of believers.