"Not Real Christians"

[Infinityloop]

 

[MoDc]

Considering the astonishing number of Christian denominations and sects and it’s muddled and largely unverified history it’s impossible to say what is or isn’t a “real” Christian. In the US at least it’s most dominant variety is hard right authoritarianism that is incompatible with basic reason and logic and is more of a political movement than a religion.

For every Bishop Spong there is a dozen Rick Wiles.

 

[Thunderian]

Anyone who believes on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation from their sins is a Christian.

 

[MoDc]

Anyone who believes on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation from their sins is a Christian.

Which is absurd because any monster can believe that and be absolved.

love everyone destroys the value of love

 

[Toulouse]

Anyone who believes on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation from their sins is a Christian.

Respectfully, Thunderian, you are correct, but it's a little more than that. To be a Christian one must believe in the Holy Trinity - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.
Just out of curiosity, how do you approach John 6:51-58?

 

[A.J.]

Being a Christian is hard enough without being hateful. That being said, the living God is no joke. That’s what I believe. I think everyone should at least give it some consideration. But that’s for each person to consider for themselves. It’s existential.

 

[Thunderian]

Which is absurd because any monster can believe that and be absolved.

love everyone destroys the value of love

Jesus loves you, but you have to accept that you are a sinner and in need of his sacrifice for you. That is what is meant by "believe". Yes, any monster can believe that and be absolved. When God offers salvation, it covers all sin, past and present, no matter how despicable or evil. If you think about it, that's the only way it can be. Salvation is offered to all.

Jhn 3:16​

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

 

[Thunderian]

Respectfully, Thunderian, you are correct, but it's a little more than that. To be a Christian one must believe in the Holy Trinity - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.
Just out of curiosity, how do you approach John 6:51-58?

There has to be an understanding of who Jesus is, and why he was the only sacrifice acceptable, but salvation is intentionally simple. Did Jesus explain the doctrine of the Trinity to the thief who asked for salvation? When I got saved, I didn't fully understand any doctrine completely. All I knew was that Jesus died for my sins because he was able to, and promised that if I believed that, I would have a place with him forever. I believed then that I was saved through my child-like faith, by his grace, and nothing I have learned since then has changed my mind about it.

The Bible asks, "What must I do to be saved?", and the answer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." Salvation comes when a person accepts Jesus Christ, not when they read and sign the Nicene Creed. When a person accepts Jesus Christ, the definition of acceptance must include the understanding that a price must be paid for our sins, and that the death of Jesus Christ was the only payment. I think of it as an unconditional stipulation on the part of the believer that we need saving, and that Jesus Christ is able to save us, but for reasons we may not fully understand until later. I'm not actually sure I'm getting this across as I understand it, but I can't imagine a person in sudden dire circumstances -- on a sinking ship, or about to die in a fire, for instance -- calling on Jesus for salvation, and the Lord turning them down because they hadn't attended catechism class. A person must sincerely believe they are a sinner, and must sincerely believe that only Jesus can save them.

How do you approach John 6:51-58? Jesus seems to be comparing himself to sustenance. It ties in with God's words in Deuteronomy 8:3, "man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live". Jesus is saying he is the living word -- the bread of life.

 

[Toulouse]

Thank you,

There has to be an understanding of who Jesus is, and why he was the only sacrifice acceptable, but salvation is intentionally simple. Did Jesus explain the doctrine of the Trinity to the thief who asked for salvation? When I got saved, I didn't fully understand any doctrine completely. All I knew was that Jesus died for my sins because he was able to, and promised that if I believed that, I would have a place with him forever. I believed then that I was saved through my child-like faith, by his grace, and nothing I have learned since then has changed my mind about it.

The Bible asks, "What must I do to be saved?", and the answer is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." Salvation comes when a person accepts Jesus Christ, not when they read and sign the Nicene Creed. When a person accepts Jesus Christ, the definition of acceptance must include the understanding that a price must be paid for our sins, and that the death of Jesus Christ was the only payment. I think of it as an unconditional stipulation on the part of the believer that we need saving, and that Jesus Christ is able to save us, but for reasons we may not fully understand until later. I'm not actually sure I'm getting this across as I understand it, but I can't imagine a person in sudden dire circumstances -- on a sinking ship, or about to die in a fire, for instance -- calling on Jesus for salvation, and the Lord turning them down because they hadn't attended catechism class. A person must sincerely believe they are a sinner, and must sincerely believe that only Jesus can save them.

How do you approach John 6:51-58? Jesus seems to be comparing himself to sustenance. It ties in with God's words in Deuteronomy 8:3, "man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live". Jesus is saying he is the living word -- the bread of life.

Congratulations on your being saved! "And the Angels in Heaven Rejoiced!!!" I rejoice. Thank you, also, for your excellent answer. You are absolutely correct that we must come to him with child-like faith - to be sure. That is exactly what you and I, and billions of other people have done. What a world this would be if we had more of that, right? However, that doesn't mean that we stay only in that mode. Our Lord tells us in Matt 10:16, "...Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." If we don't do this, then I imagine that we would be vulnerable to anyone who comes along and preaches in Jesus' name - I think here, respectfully of course, of groups like Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. In my many trips around the Sun I have met many people from these backgrounds and, truth be told, to the person, they were all lovely, sincere people. The problem is that these two groups do not believe that Jesus was God. That's problematic, wouldn't you agree? In the extreme, I think of examples like Jim Jones...yikes! The early Christian Fathers also came against heresies such as these, for example Gnosticism and Arianism.
Concerning John 6:51-58: It's interesting that Jesus says four times in John that He is the bread from Heaven. When Jesus says things multiples times, there is good reason, like asking Peter if he (Peter) loved Him (Jesus). John 6 is amazing and nothing in Scripture is random. Before the Bread of Life Discourse, John tells of the multiplication of the loaves and then how Jesus walked on the water. Jesus creates a complete paradigm shift in the Apostles by defying the laws of nature. In short, He can do whatever he wants. Further, it's just as interesting that in John 6:51-58, that the word "eat" from the Greek means to "chew" or "gnaw." There's no getting around this. This is an actual physical act - the act of eating. When Jesus tells the people this, many left him. Jesus did not run after them saying, "Hey guys, come back, don't take me literally, I'm only speaking symbolically. There are times in Jesus' life that what He doesn't do that are important.
Take all this back to Jesus' birth - appropriate as we soon celebrate His miraculous birth (GLORY!!!) - and we recall that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the City of David - the City of Bread!!! Upon his birth, where was Our Savior placed? In a manger - a "feeding trough." Wow! This is exciting stuff and there are no coincidences with God.
I've enjoyed this Thunderian. Let's encourage, and pray for, each other my friend as we walk with Our Lord toward His Eternal Promise to Life Everlasting. Many Blessings.

 

[Toulouse]

Which is absurd because any monster can believe that and be absolved.

love everyone destroys the value of love

I understand your point, MoDc - familiarity breeds contempt. But God is only capable of Love, and the more we love, the more we become like God. When Jesus says "Be perfect as MY Father is perfect." that's what he's talking about - love with a perfect love. Can't go wrong there my friend.

 

[Lisa]

Take all this back to Jesus' birth - appropriate as we soon celebrate His miraculous birth (GLORY!!!)

How do you know He was born on Christmas Day?
As Christians should we celebrate His birth? Since Jesus is God does He have a birthday? I don’t think so. Yes He was born as a human to accomplish His task but it’s not like He didn’t already exist...before Abraham, I Am.

I doubt His disciples celebrated a birthday...even the Bible doesn’t talk about the exact date..which leads me to believe that that’s not something we should be celebrating.

 

[Toulouse]

How do you know He was born on Christmas Day?
As Christians should we celebrate His birth? Since Jesus is God does He have a birthday? I don’t think so. Yes He was born as a human to accomplish His task but it’s not like He didn’t already exist...before Abraham, I Am.

I doubt His disciples celebrated a birthday...even the Bible doesn’t talk about the exact date..which leads me to believe that that’s not something we should be celebrating.

I understand your point, and it's well-taken. We celebrate each other's birthday to celebrate life and the life of that person. What better person to celebrate than the One Who came to free us from our sins! Celebrating birthdays ARE human creations and God gave us gifts to use our imaginations. Living a Biblical life is not like living from Horoscopes and stars/planets. Living a life with Jesus as the focal point is to live a life of freedom. Jesus gave Peter the power to lose and bind here on earth...He gave him the power to make decisions after He left, decision based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit - given at Pentacost.
There is some question as to when Jesus was born. Jonathan Kahn, a Messianic-Jewish rabbi, does a great job of explaining this in a video on YouTube. But it really doesn't matter when Jesus was born. What matters is that He was born and that we celebrate God coming to Earth from Heaven in the form of a child. If a child was left on a doorstep and then adopted, most parents would want to celebrate that child's birthday, so they pick a day...maybe the day they found him/her. It might be hurtful to the child never to have a birthday celebration. We show God how much we love Him/Jesus by celebrating the greatest birth ever. Hope this helps...

 

[Lisa]

I understand your point, and it's well-taken. We celebrate each other's birthday to celebrate life and the life of that person. What better person to celebrate than the One Who came to free us from our sins! Celebrating birthdays ARE human creations and God gave us gifts to use our imaginations. Living a Biblical life is not like living from Horoscopes and stars/planets. Living a life with Jesus as the focal point is to live a life of freedom. Jesus gave Peter the power to lose and bind here on earth...He gave him the power to make decisions after He left, decision based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit - given at Pentacost.
There is some question as to when Jesus was born. Jonathan Kahn, a Messianic-Jewish rabbi, does a great job of explaining this in a video on YouTube. But it really doesn't matter when Jesus was born. What matters is that He was born and that we celebrate God coming to Earth from Heaven in the form of a child. If a child was left on a doorstep and then adopted, most parents would want to celebrate that child's birthday, so they pick a day...maybe the day they found him/her. It might be hurtful to the child never to have a birthday celebration. We show God how much we love Him/Jesus by celebrating the greatest birth ever. Hope this helps...

My point is that He doesn’t need us to celebrate His ‘birthday’. He didn’t come for us to celebrate His being born but to be saved by Him...that’s more important than celebrating the birth of someone who doesn’t actually have a birthday..He’s always existed.

And it’s unbiblical really, the disciples didn’t. God’s inspired word doesn’t tell us to. We really should do things that are according to the Bible not human tradition. And God doesn’t need this show of ‘love’ from us..it’s kinda ridiculous to say that that’s a way to show God we love Him. That’s not love...it’s a worldly tradition not rooted in Biblical truth...so that wouldn’t be showing God love.

 

[llleopard]

Respectfully, Thunderian, you are correct, but it's a little more than that. To be a Christian one must believe in the Holy Trinity - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.
Just out of curiosity, how do you approach John 6:51-58?

Must one? I don't recall seeing that in the Bible anywhere?

 

[floss]

My point is that He doesn’t need us to celebrate His ‘birthday’. He didn’t come for us to celebrate His being born but to be saved by Him...that’s more important than celebrating the birth of someone who doesn’t actually have a birthday..He’s always existed.

And it’s unbiblical really, the disciples didn’t. God’s inspired word doesn’t tell us to. We really should do things that are according to the Bible not human tradition. And God doesn’t need this show of ‘love’ from us..it’s kinda ridiculous to say that that’s a way to show God we love Him. That’s not love...it’s a worldly tradition not rooted in Biblical truth...so that wouldn’t be showing God love.

Every year many are saved thanks to Christmas events around the world (my church included). I don't see what is bad about it beside Santa Satan trying to get all the spotlight.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

With respect to Christmas on December 25th there is a lot of indirect wisdom in 1 Corinthians 10:-

23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

31Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Anyone who believes on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation from their sins is a Christian.

If the version of “Christianity” a person accepts cannot account for the salvation of the Thief on the Cross, it probably isn’t the real thing...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-thief-on-the-cross.6655/

 

[Lisa]

Every year many are saved thanks to Christmas events around the world (my church included). I don't see what is bad about it beside Santa Satan trying to get all the spotlight.

Let us live in the truth though, right? Should we then say that Jesus was born on Christmas Day and celebrate it as true when it’s not? It’s not like that starts people out on the right track with God, starting with a lie?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Let us live in the truth though, right? Should we then say that Jesus was born on Christmas Day and celebrate it as true when it’s not? It’s not like that starts people out on the right track with God, starting with a lie?

The Queen in the UK has her ”official birthday” and her actual birthday. I don’t have an issue celebrating the fact that Jesus was born on any day (even Dec 25th) even if He was born around the fall feasts...

 

[Lisa]

The Queen in the UK has her ”official birthday” and her actual birthday. I don’t have an issue celebrating the fact that Jesus was born on any day (even Dec 25th) even if He was born around the fall feasts...

Sorry, but who cares what the queen does? She isn’t God. With God we worship in spirit and in truth...so why then would we continue a lie? Is God honored when we celebrate lies? I don’t think He is. How then do you make disciples when you start out lying to people?

And again, my other point is Jesus is God..before Abraham, I am, so why celebrate a birthday when He has always existed?