“Don’t force your help on people who are not willing to change”

[Lisa]

Nope...
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,"

They already believed, but Jesus did not yet say they were his disciples. It was only if they abided in his word (in other words followed his teachings) would they be disciples.

You said this earlier...

No not everyone here is a disciple of Christ. Those who understand what love is are and those who don't aren't.

 

[Todd]

we sin too much for that.

The fact that we sin and God still loves us is the proof that he loves unconditionally

 

[Todd]

You said this earlier...

Yes they go hand in hand as Jesus taught about Loving God, loving our neighbors and loving each other. Hence abiding in his words would include loving God, our neighbors and each other.

 

[Awoken2]

I’ve reported you for name calling/insults.

I don't really care.

 

[Lisa]

The fact that we sin and God still loves us is the proof that he loves unconditionally
View attachment 23946

Only if He continued to let us sin unconditionally, but He doesn’t.

 

[Todd]

Only if He continued to let us sin unconditionally, but He doesn’t.

Are you saying when you sin God stops loving you?

 

[Lisa]

I don't really care.

I know

 

[Eternal Salvation]

The full context of that verse is every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of God. How does he failure of God to bring about his desire bring glory to him? You have a sick, peverted sense of glory if you think that people bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord by torture brings glory to God.

BTW I can give you over 200 verses for universal reconciliation.

I should have been more specific. They're not going to bow down while getting tortured- the wicked that is and before I explain any further, don't even dare tell me I have a sick and perverted sense of glory. No, that's even more low than what you said before. So you're insulting me because you don't understand what I meant? Already assuming I'm sick just because YOU don't understand. Uh-uh, that ain't right at all.

And universal reconciliation? I'm discussing about the BIBLE; GOD'S WORD SIR. You're the one getting his word mixed up, and God has been teaching me and giving me spiritual growth ever since I was a child.

Now if you're just going to insult me and stuff just because you don't understand, I think it's safe to say we can end this right here because I don't feel like talking to an immature grown adult who can't get his mind straight.

 

[Lisa]

Are you saying when you sin God stops loving you?

No, but to get back into a right relationship with Him then you have to repent. So, that isn’t unconditional is it?

 

[Lisa]

I should have been more specific. They're not going to bow down while getting tortured- the wicked that is and before I explain any further, don't even dare tell me I have a sick and perverted sense of glory. No, that's even more low than what you said before. So you're insulting me because you don't understand what I meant? Already assuming I'm sick just because YOU don't understand. Uh-uh, that ain't right at all.

And universal reconciliation? I'm discussing about the BIBLE; GOD'S WORD SIR. You're the one getting his word mixed up, and God has been teaching me and giving me spiritual growth ever since I was a child.

Now if you're just going to insult me and stuff just because you don't understand, I think it's safe to say we can end this right here because I don't feel like talking to an immature grown adult who can't get his mind straight.

And I thought I had to watch over you...good job!

 

[Todd]

I should have been more specific. They're not going to bow down while getting tortured- the wicked that is and before I explain any further, don't even dare tell me I have a sick and perverted sense of glory. No, that's even more low than what you said before. So you're insulting me because you don't understand what I meant? Already assuming I'm sick just because YOU don't understand. Uh-uh, that ain't right at all.

That's why my statement began with "IF you believe...." I was leaving the door open for you to clarify if I misunderstood your point. It's called the art of conversation, which neither you or Lisa seem to be very proficeint at.

And universal reconciliation? I'm discussing about the BIBLE; GOD'S WORD SIR. You're the one getting his word mixed up, and God has been teaching me and giving me spiritual growth ever since I was a child.

Well God's been teaching me and giving me spiritual growth for longer than you have been alive. What's your point?
I just posted 82 scripture verses (thanks @Dalit for counting) that support UR, so I am discussing the Bible also.

Now if you're just going to insult me and stuff just because you don't understand, I think it's safe to say we can end this right here because I don't feel like talking to an immature grown adult who can't get his mind straight.

Okay, stop talking then.

 

[Todd]

No, but to get back into a right relationship with Him then you have to repent. So, that isn’t unconditional is it?

So God stops loving you until you repent?

 

[Eternal Salvation]

No, but to get back into a right relationship with Him then you have to repent. So, that isn’t unconditional is it?

Right, I agree. When you have a relationship with God, you still sin so you would have to repent for any sins you do. You'll feel conviction from the Holy Spirit and also the fear of the Lord that will get you to repent. If you have a relationship with God, yet you don't repent for any sin you do, that means you're a lukewarm Christian and you're sinning as you please while knowing his word and not even repenting for said sins which you will get cast into the lake of fire when he asks you why you bothered having a relationship with him yet not repenting. Repentance and following the Lord is what will get you into heaven. You can't just follow God, not repent, and then expect to earn eternal salvation.

 

[Lisa]

So God stops loving you until you repent?

No, but there is a condition to His love, you must repent.

 

[Todd]

No, but there is a condition to His love, you must repent.

Which is it Lisa. You can't have it both ways. Either God loves you or he doesn't love you before you repent. Which one is it?

 

[Eternal Salvation]

And I thought I had to watch over you...good job!

Oh, thank you :3 wait what do you mean watch over me?

 

[Eternal Salvation]

That's why my statement began with "IF you believe...." I was leaving the door open for you to clarify if I misunderstood your point. It's called the art of conversation, which neither you or Lisa seem to be very proficeint at.


Well God's been teaching me and giving me spiritual growth for longer than you have been alive. What's your point?
I just posted 82 scripture verses (thanks @Dalit for counting) that support UR, so I am discussing the Bible also.


Okay, stop talking then.

"Okay stop talking then", you were the one who replied to my first ever comment on this thread. Wow, an adult being rude to a teenager. How great is that? See, you're so blunt and prideful that it makes me sick.

 

[Lisa]

Oh, thank you :3 wait what do you mean watch over me?

You’re welcome! Just making sure that no one is too mean to you.

 

[DavidSon]

So I have found that most people who want to reject the Word of God and what it says end up trying to place blame on some sect or in your case a Government and try and restate the lie that somehow they changed the Bible. That is poor understanding of History and extremely illogical considering the number of copies of the Bible we possess. It would be impossible for any group of people or even the Roman Government to round up all the Bible, destroy them and then create a new Bible with their ideologies alone in it.

The facts are there are about 5800 copies of the Bible that we have that were written within the first 6 centuries, which in terms of preservation of ancient text is basically unheard of. Add on top of that, that we have almost the entire Bible recorded and quoted by multiple people, many of which were quoted before the 4th century.

Essentially what I am saying is that your argument about the Romans is bogus, and anyone who simply studies History and uses basic logic who is not already coming with a mindset to reject the Bible or certain parts of it, can see that it is impossible for the Romans or anyone else to have tampered with the Bible, especially in the degree to change the core message of the Gospel.

Also I dont exactly follow this sentence, would you care to further explain it to me "If there's a question about devotion to someone who killed and persecuted the first Christians, your only response is further excerpts of the letters of Paul of Tarsus"

And you have mistakenly believed that I worship the thoughts of Paul, I worship the God of the Bible. Have you actually read the Bible? I have asked you a few times here or made the insinuation that you havent and you havent answered or corrected me. So have you, yourself actually read the Bible, front to back and made a concerted effort to know the God the Bible describes, from Genesis to Revelations?

I agree that the Bible isnt to be worshiped but the Bible IS the Word of God, the only way to know God is thru the Bible. We can all invent ideas about how we think God ought to be, or how God works, but unless your thoughts line up with the Word of God then they are vanity. What does God say about His Word?

Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever

Is 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Ps 33:4 For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord.
6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Ps 130:5 I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

I can quote dozens more, and all of that is not from Paul, but we can see that Gods Word is Perfect, that it is Eternal, is Pure, keeps us from Sin, has been Tried, we have our Hope in it, we should put our Trust in it, it gives Light and Understanding, it lights our way, and it is how everything was created.

So while I dont worship the Bible, the God I do worship is found on every page and I accept and follow what His Word tells us.

And because I know that what Paul wrote along with the other Disciples and Luke are all Gods Word, I follow and believe in what they state as well. And accordingly what does Scripture also say about the Word of God?

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you were to actually understand and believe the Word of God, you would know that Salvation only comes by believing the Gospel and by believing in Faith. That Faith derives from the Word of God. Read that and understand the importance of hearing, knowing and preaching the Word of God to others...



If someone is trying to reach the masses of the Lost, which is what this message board is full of and they are not saying that people must be Born Again then I can tell you that they are not bringing people to God.

You talk about Jesus but you dont even know Jesus, what did Jesus say?

John 3:1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So here we have Jesus repeat 3 times the necessity of being Born Again, but you think because I or others message focus on the need, the out right command of Jesus Himself to BE BORN AGAIN, we are the ones that are not reborn Spiritually?

I would say everything you have posted would say that you would be the one that has not been Reborn Spiritually, and I would suggest digging into the Word of God to give you wisdom and understanding so you can come to know Jesus and get Born Again so you can get into the Kingdom. At the moment, if you are not Born Again, then you cant even see the Kingdom, that is what Jesus directly said...



Actually it hasnt, its only Lost its Power to those who are blind to it and have been made blind to it by the god of this World. Again you really ought to come to know Jesus and the Gospel and you would know just how incorrect your statement is. The Power of the Gospel changes peoples lives, every, single, day, but because it hasnt changed your life because you reject it, you think it has no Power.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If you were to get Saved you would know first hand the Power of the Gospel, it impact my life, every, single, day. And I can guarantee that every, single, Born Again, Christian, will tell you the exact same thing. All over the world the Gospel is setting people free from their addictions, pain, heartaches, failures, losses, misery. Everyday the Gospel is speaking Life into peoples hearts.

If you knew Jesus, if you knew the Gospel you never would say that it has lost its power...



I personally dont care about John Darby ( I dont believe in Dispensationalism or Pre Mil Pre Trib Rapture) nor do I care about John Wesley, I care about Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Everything I have relayed here has been 100% Bible, 100% Christ. Nothing you have said resonates with either the Word of God or Jesus. You have no clue about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You have created your own personal made up Jesus, with your own personal made up Gospel. Nothing you have said thus far shows you have any clue who or what Jesus or His Gospel or Good News is...



So here is the actual verses you quoted:

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

So what exactly do you think it means to Repent and what exactly are we to believe?

The Kingdom is at hand, but Jesus is very straight forward that in order to even see that Kingdom you must be Born Again, so according to your ideology what does Repent mean and what do we Repent from, what do we need to believe and what causes someone to be Born Again?

It is massive lack of reading comprehension to say the Gospel is the coming of the Kingdom itself and that is all that it entails. Re read the actual verse, and the rest of what Jesus Himself preached. In order to get into the Kingdom, you need to Repent and Believe in Something and be Born Again. Do us idiot Christians a favor and tell us what Repent is, what we need to Believe exactly, what causes us to be Born Again and lay out what being Born Again is exactly and please explain to us what the Kingdom itself is..




Well I quoted Him all the time, like when He repeated Himself 3 times the need to be Born Again, and I try my best to imitate Him, one aspect among many would be to preach the actual Gospel, and tell people that they need to be Born Again in order to enter into the Kingdom...



I would like to know why you say this, I have my ideas of where and why you are believing and pulling this from, but I dont want to jump the gun here. Explain to me why you think Jesus was an ascetic?



I am sure that billions of Christians have laid down in the dirt and slept under the stars, I dont know what this has to do with anything...

I've gone camping, I enjoy it, and wish the Society we lived in wasnt the way it is, and it hasnt always been like this, other than the past 50-75 years most people were living in that manner. Again this has nothing to do with the Gospel or Salvation or anything we have been discussing..



Can you name me people apart from Christians that are doing anything in these places?

You act like Christians are not ministering in the slums, hospitals and homeless shelters. Go to these places and look around and ask the people who ARE doing something there, if they are Christians. Would you be surprised when you find out that the mass majority of people who are in these places doing the things you are asking about are Christians?

Could more go? Indeed and when more go, could even more go? Of course, but that doesnt mean people are not actually doing these things. I have spent time ministering to the homeless, and helping get food for the less fortunate. I have gone to places destroyed by storms to help the people in need there. People in my Church have done all sorts of things to help others, so again it makes me wonder if you have actually ever been around Christians?

You have this tendency to point the finger but then turn a blind eye to the millions upon million upon millions of Christians that are out here doing all sorts of things to help others...



Well as I see that your understanding of Jesus is off, I would guess that your perspective on this is probably off as well and again who is to say none of those people are Christians?

I personally am Anti-War and I am a Christian, I also believe in Human Rights, and am a Christian. It seems that you dont get that Christianity is the reason why Human Rights exist in the modern world. If you would like to get into the discussions I would be happy to show you that most of the people who have fought for Human Rights in the past few hundred years were Christians...

I also am not sure what Philosophers you are reading from so that would also factor into this polemic you are creating about them vs the Anti War Human Rights Activists. Are these Philosophers Christians? Please show me who you mean...



Again you act as tho you can not possibly combat Satanic Doctrines and teach about Christology. Is there some rule out there that says these are mutually exclusive topics that people are not allowed or able to speak about together?

I mean on this Forum let alone the World at Large, the same people discussion Christology are also out here refuting the Satanic Doctrine of Jesus murderers. I do it all the time, however I am quite sure that our beliefs of the doctrine of Jesus murderers differ greatly...



Well I am actually and literally in Christ, can you say the same?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I wanted to say in my last post that I'm not attempting to disrespect your testimony or ideals that have brought you salvation. There are souls that are brought closer to the Almighty One through theology. I believe some are more inclined to intellectual stimulus than others. I stand by my previous statements though: atonement theory is not a universal tenet of Christianity.

When I was referring to being "Romanized", I'm not talking about canonized books. I'm talking about the Church and their doctrines that were developed under Roman authority- the council of Nicea, Constantinople, etc.... the aspects of the Gospel of Jesus that were chosen to be focused on (or not focused on actually). Protestantism is nothing more than reformed Catholicism, as is Evangelicalism. Just reading the quotes of Christians online there is a heavy influence of the poetry of Paul and I'm dumbfounded people are more inspired by his Gospel than the sayings of Jesus.

It's been pointed out before that "the Word" is not the Bible. So "in the beginning" there was a floating Bible surrounded by deep space lol? The illiterate have no hope of living in the peace of holiness? More accurately the Word is Logos or divine intelligence. The laws of God are written in our heart and the commandments in our mind. I've read the Bible and years ago searched out the Gnostic texts, the Apocraphyl, Enoch and Jubilees, even obscure writings like the Aquarian Gospel. The Holy Bible may be a gem of spiritual and historical significance but it's not as you said "the only way to know God." GOD IS LOVE.

You can attempt to insult me all you want but you've failed to refute that Paul's Gospel is not the Gospel of Jesus. It's amusing that from one exchange you interpret Jesus repeating three times the saying to be "born again." Such a simple text to us (which my point is it was played out by Weslyites), but people of the day thought it meant they would climb back into their mother!

You think Jesus had a sleeping bag and a tent? lol. Mainstream Christians practice acts of charity but they are not worthy to be called disciples or followers. If you live under a roof, on the internet with a Starbucks coffee in hand... you're not a disciple. Conceited, accusing, boastful pretenders, like the parasite Jewish priests of Jesus's day, are no better than anyone else. In fact the disciples themselves were weak willed, jealous, traitorous, carnal men that Jesus even called satan. I don't worship the disciples, I worship God the Creator.

I hope you find truth within the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus. He said to repent (from sin), for the Kingdom of God is at hand. It's not difficult. If all of humanity turned from the wickedness of greed, envy, self-destruction, conceitedness, lust, etc. we would be in harmony with nature like the seasons or the orbit of the planets.

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."- LUKE 17:20-21

 

[Todd]

"Okay stop talking then", you were the one who replied to my first ever comment on this thread. Wow, an adult being rude to a teenager. How great is that? See, you're so blunt and prideful that it makes me sick.

So now agreeing with you is being rude? You are the one who said you were going to stop talking to me. I just said okay.
How did I know you weren't really going to stop talking to me though? LOL! You ought to lighten up a little bit. If you are this high strung and sensitive as a teenager, you are in for a world of hurt as you enter the real adult world.