Once Saved Always Saved?

[phipps]

When and where did the thief on the cross get baptised?

The thief on the cross couldn't be baptised since he was crucified could he? He was going to die and I don't think the romans would bring him down to be baptised. @TokiEl is right. Use common sense. Most people are not in the position of the thief on the cross. And God is an understanding God who knows our individual situations and how came to be saved and judge us fairly accordingly.

Most people can be baptised and its important they do in their Christian walk with Christ. That one incident of the thief on the cross doesn't cancel out all the other examples we have of baptism in the Bible including Jesus and the early Christians. We all should be baptised or we won't make it to God's Kingdom. That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[phipps]

Every sinner who turns from sins and begin to live righteously is covered by the spilt blood of Jesus Christ.

What i and Jesus have a problem with are all those who believe and accept Him but still sins.

We are going round in circles here. Turning from sin and living righteously without believing and accepting Christ as their personal Saviour is useless.

I think you should think more about whether you still sin even after you believed and accepted Christ as your personal saviour. Pray for those you have a problem with but pay attention to your salvation more.

 

[Thunderian]

And God is an understanding God who knows our individual situations and how came to be saved and judge us fairly accordingly.

So we're saved by works, unless we can't do them? Where's the consistency in your gospel?

 

[bible_student]

When and where did the thief on the cross get baptised?

Does it say he went to heaven?

 

[Thunderian]

Does it say he went to heaven?

Do you think he wasn't saved?

 

[bible_student]

Do you think he wasn't saved?

I'm asking, does it say he went to heaven. So.. does it?

 

[bible_student]

(My point is not about water baptism, though.)

 

[phipps]

So we're saved by works, unless we can't do them? Where's the consistency in your gospel?

Lol you're really trying hard to disagree with me aren't you? And I'm consistent but its not my gospel. Its Jesus' gospel.

Have you forgotten the conversation between the two thieves and the conversation between Jesus and the repentant thief?

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. ... Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, 'If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.' But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, 'Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.' Then he said to Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'" Luke 23:32=33, 39-43.

Jesus knew the thief had accepted Him as His personal Saviour. He is God and can tell. The thief certainly knew Jesus was God. I go by what the Bible teaches. You're the one being inconsistent and not applying common sense. That man was saved and I hope to meet him in heaven.

 

[bible_student]

Water baptism is actually going backwards, because Christ said He would baptise people with fire [fiery-baptism] not with water.

 

[TokiEl]

I've been baptised, twice, and we're not talking about me, but the thief on the cross.

I'm not talking about you either.

I'm just asking what is the excuse for a follower of Jesus Christ to not be baptised when it is clearly recommended in the Script.

So people can be saved without believing in Jesus, but they must get baptised to be saved, except when they don't? That about right?

Jesus saves whomever He wills.

He does not ask me for advice on who to save and why etc. He got this.

 

[bible_student]

Lol you're really trying hard to disagree with me aren't you? And I'm consistent but its not my gospel. Its Jesus' gospel.

Have you forgotten the conversation between the two thieves and the conversation between Jesus and the repentant thief?

"There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. ... Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, 'If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.' But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, 'Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.' Then he said to Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'" Luke 23:32=33, 39-43.

Jesus knew the thief had accepted Him as His personal Saviour. He is God and can tell. The thief certainly knew Jesus was God. I go by what the Bible teaches. You're the one being inconsistent and not applying common sense. That man was saved and I hope to meet him in heaven.

It says Paradise, not Heaven.
http://jahtruth.net/astrl.htm

 

[Thunderian]

I'm asking, does it say he went to heaven. So.. does it?

Where did I say he went to Heaven?

 

[Thunderian]

I'm just asking what is the excuse for a follower of Jesus Christ to not be baptised when it is clearly recommended in the Script.

There may be a lot of excuses, one of them being that you're hanging on a cross about to die.

Is baptism recommended? Or commanded? I'm not sure what your point of view is any longer.

 

[TokiEl]

We are going round in circles here. Turning from sin and living righteously without believing and accepting Christ as their personal Saviour is useless.

All Jesus wants is for us to live righteously according to His words.

And He paid the price for all sinners who repent and start to live as He said.

I think you should think more about whether you still sin even after you believed and accepted Christ as your personal saviour. Pray for those you have a problem with but pay attention to your salvation more.

Me and Jesus are buddies.

 

[TokiEl]

There may be a lot of excuses, one of them being that you're hanging on a cross about to die.

Is baptism recommended? Or commanded? I'm not sure what your point of view is any longer.

Just use common folk sense.

 

[Daciple]

You will either hear Him and comply or you will search the bible like a pharisee.

It is so funny you keep telling those who believe in Salvation by Faith Alone they are the Pharisees, it is like you dont even comprehend who the Pharisees were, what they believe or why Jesus was constantly berating them. You realized that Jesus never went off on anyone other than Pharisees correct?

And each time he went off on them why was it? Was it because they were doing Works? Because if you take any time to study out who the Pharisees were and how they believed ALL OF THEM were of the ideology that they were Justified before God because of their Race and their Works.

Jesus was always calling out the Pharisees because they were hypocrites that wanted to Lord themselves and their supposed "Good Works" over others and judge them as being unworthy because others werent as "pious" as the Pharisees believed themselves to be. The Pharisees refused to accept Christ because Christ preached a FAITH BASED SALVATION, the Pharisees always wanted to show how much their Works and Race earned them Salvation and Justification before the Lord.

Look at Paul, a Pharisees of Pharisees, what does he conclude about all the things the Pharisees upheld?

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Everything that Paul was about, which is exactly what the Pharisees believed BROUGHT THEM SALVATION, he gave up for Christ. All of that, his race and heritage of Israel, his works according to the Law, his zeal for his Religion, and the "RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS IN THE LAW" all of it is what according to him? It is all DUNG.

Paul makes is painfully obvious to anyone who wants to see it, that he gave up the supposed Righteousness of the Law and everything associated with the Flesh for the Spiritual Righteousness found ONLY in Christ. These verses alone prove that our standing before God, our Justification isnt based on ANYTHING we have done or will do, and instead is found 100% in Christ and His Work.

If you understood who the Pharisees were, you would recognize that the one who are the Pharisees are you and all the other people who believe their Works merit Justification or Righteousness before the Lord.

One day maybe, you will study out with an open heart, Justification vs Sanctification and see how one is for Salvation and the other is for our Walk and Relationship with Christ, and how they are not the same nor is Justification dependent on ones Sanctification.

If you really understood Grace and Faith and what God sees when He sees someone who is Born Again, you would understand exactly how and why Works play zero part in that. I mean I know you refuse to accept it because your Pride wants to puff up all day everyday so you can tell everyone just how awesome you are at not Sinning and how great you are at keeping your own Salvation, but if you are Born Again, God doesnt see any of that concerning your Positional Righteousness and Justification before Him. The only thing He sees is the Blood of Christ on you. If its there then you are given ETERNAL LIFE, if its not there then He see you as you really are, a Broken Sinner in need of a Savior.

If you die in Faith of Christ, the Blood has been applied and you have ETERNAL LIFE, if you die without Faith in Christ then you die in your Sins and will be cast into Hell. Your supposed Good Works which are really just filthy rags before God have no bearing on your Eternal Salvation...

 

[Thunderian]

Just use common folk sense.

So who cares what the Bible says?

 

[TokiEl]

It is so funny you keep telling those who believe in Salvation by Faith Alone they are the Pharisees, it is like you dont even comprehend who the Pharisees were, what they believe or why Jesus was constantly berating them.

You know you are the greatest pharisee i've ever had the pleasure to come across.

Just stop. Chill. Pray. Relax.

Stop sinning. Strive.

 

[TokiEl]

So who cares what the Bible says?

You've read the Bible... so just use common folk sense concerning baptism. Or take it up with the Lord.

My advice is if someone doesn't have an excuse... get baptised.

 

[Daciple]

This is reality @Daciple
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Let’s break this verse down...let’s be real...
The Spirit...means the Holy Spirit-correct?

1explicit
adjectiveex·plic·it\ik-ˈspli-sət\
1 a : fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent

So, so far we have the Holy Spirit, leaves no question as to the meaning or intent. Says that in the later times
Later times...i.e now

some will fall away from the faith.
1fall
verb\ˈfȯl\
fell\ˈfel\; fall·en\ˈfȯ-lən\; fall·ing
intransitive verb
to enter as if unawares : stumble, stray fell into error We fell into a trap.

So they stumble and fall unawares away from the faith....
What faith do you think Paul is writing about here? Judaism? Islam? Catholicism? I would say that it’s the Christian Faith since he is writing to new pastor Timothy and he is the apostle of the gentiles, the answer is the Christian Faith.

So now we have the Holy Spirit leaves no question to His meaning or intent that in later times i.e. now some Christians will stumble fall unawares away from the Christian faith.

The last bit tells how...because they paid attention
1attention
nounat·ten·tion\ə-ˈten(t)-shən; sense 4 often (ə-)ˌten(ch)-ˈhət\
1 a : the act or state of applying the mind to something

to deceitful spirits and doctrines.

Put it all together and we see that the Holy Spirit is the one who leaves no question as to His meaning or intent that in the later times i.e. now, some Christians will stumble and fall unawares from the Christian faith because they will apply their mind to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

If you get really nit picky, this in truth is what the verse is saying. This being the truth, if you disagree with it, considering the Holy Spirit said it, don’t you think then that you’re calling Him a liar? You say osas but the Holy Spirit says otherwise.

So ya, I believe these passages because how could I not, I’m not gonna say the Holy Spirit doesn’t know what He’s talking about. Doesn’t make me a non Christian because I believe this verse and the others I gave as proof, just the opposite, I believe the truth of what is written in the Bible.
The verses you give and the reasons you give can’t trump this one verse, sorry and the other verses are a landslide of evidence against osas.

So you as the other Works Salvations can not and not address the real issue here, which is Justification vs Sanctification. How are you Justified Lisa? Is it by your Works or is it by the Blood of Jesus?

Answer that and you can then try and tell me why Works has any room in Salvation, because again you believe in a Works Based Salvation plain and simple.

As for the one verse you quoted, you of course refuse to interpret it in light of the FACT that Justification before God isnt based on our Works, therefore you incorrectly understand what is being told here. Not that you actually care, you want to believe no matter what that your standing before God is based on what you do or dont do, because you love your little Works and think they have some type of bearing on whether or not you are Saved...

So if someone goes to Church everyday for 5 years, but never was Born Again, and leaves the Church being lead away into say Islam instead, did they depart the Faith?

As I already quoted the correct understanding of this is written by John, what does this verse mean to you?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Id like to know what you make of this verse, just remember that the THEY in red in 19 is referring to ANTICHRISTS...

Here is another example of how to understand that one particular verse you think Trumps the outright Doctrine of Justification Paul writes about in length in many of his books that you refuse to address, which I understand why you dont, because you really can not:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

What do you think that means? They are not all Israel which are of Israel?

Understand this correctly and you would understand what it means to depart from the Faith in CONTEXT of everything else written.

The overwhelming evidence is what I have shown which you wont attempt to acknowledge because it will wreck everything you could hope to write on this site concerning Salvation in Christ, that Justification is based on Faith in Christ and that is the only thing that keep us Saved ETERNALLY. Works has no merit in our standing before God concerning Justification, therefore it is impossible to lose Salvation because everything is based on Faith in Christ and His Works.

No one who has been Saved HAS fallen away, you believe in a weak God who doesnt keep His Promises straight up, I believe in the Promises God gave about sealing me, finishing what He started, not being able to be plucked out of His Hand, Him being with me till the end and thru everything. You really dont believe God does that, you believe that you and everyone else can be plucked out of His Hand, that He really doesnt go all the way with people, even till the end, that He really doesnt seal us unto the day of Redemption, that He really wont finish what He starts in us....

So tell me what 1 John 2:18-19 means and what it means that not all Israel is Israel please.