Thoughts On The Original Quranic View Of Women

Lady

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I agree. The tight pants that cling to every curve are not for me!

Lol, no I do not think that every head covering woman wears it in their own home-or the burqa, either. I do have a story about a Christian friend from a strict religious background who used to wear a head covering in the form of a kerchief.

She started to question this for herself when she had to decide whether or not she needed to cover her head when she got up to use the bathroom at night. For her, this was something of a turning point in her personal practices.
 

Kung Fu

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She started to question this for herself when she had to decide whether or not she needed to cover her head when she got up to use the bathroom at night. For her, this was something of a turning point in her personal practices.
LOL! Having to think that you have to wear a head covering or a long dress to go the washroom is absolutely ridiculous. Wherever she picked that up from is straight up lunacy. The Islamic dress code was designed for protecting one's honour and staving off the stares of men that are not a part of your family. At home when it's just you and your husband the dress code becomes a lot more relaxed.
 

Haich

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islam and hijab has always been a controversial topic. Everyone views it in their own way and has their own spin, I think it's important that the main idea is to dress modestly

Modesty in itself is debatable, some would say jeans and a baggy top is modest others would argue a dress. I think we have to be realistic, where I live it's cold most of the year so many girls have to wear trousers but loose fitting and a long jumper or coat. Their figures aren't on display and they look pretty modest with their headscarves covering their chest.

Personally I'm of the opinion that a skirt or dress or loose fitting trousers (so no skinny jeans) are the best way to display ones modesty. The covering of the hair with a headscarf is also pretty common practice for me and most Muslim women HOWEVER this is just my opinion and I don't believe God or his book complicates the way women dress, Muslims do.

There are so many decent and wholesome believing women who aren't quite ready to wear a headscarf or aren't quite there with their attire but that doesn't in any way define their relationship with God. It's important to remember everyone has their struggles there's a difference between someone consciously opposing covering modestly like God ordered or someone who's on the journey to enlightenment.

I completely disagree that a veil, khimar or abaya or jilbab are the so called uniform of Islam. It's ridiculous to suggest such a thing, you can dress just as modest with a long skirt or a long garment. We need to stop labelling what women wear in Islam there's too much of an emphasis on how we look and not much emphasis on how to empower our young women and inspire them to become better people. With a society constantly denying God's existence we should focus on instilling the fundamental pinnacles of faith e.g. Prayer, charity, fasting etc instead of nitpicking at what women wear.

I started to wear my headscarf at the age of 21 because I was so selfconcious and often felt excluded by the khimar and Jilbab crew. They were so quick to tell me what I was doing wrong but never commented on all the things I was doing right. You isolate and drive people away if you keep telling them my way is hijab not your way

There also needs to be more emphasis on hijab for men! Their awra and chastisy needs to be mentioned as well
 

The Zone

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Yeah, yoga pants test my eyes. I am thinking average Joe likes that on other women but that he'd be different with his GF or wife with everyones eyes on them;) I have to train my inner dog daily with my mind and spirit. I like surfing, I am sort of used to seeing women half dressed and have almost became oblivious to it for it is such a part of the scene.
 

Kung Fu

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Yeah, yoga pants test my eyes. I am thinking average Joe likes that on other women but that he'd be different with his GF or wife with everyones eyes on them;) I have to train my inner dog daily with my mind and spirit. I like surfing, I am sort of used to seeing women half dressed and have almost became oblivious to it for it is such a part of the scene.
Of course, they test your eyes, you're a man after all. The Most High in all His wisdom knows our natures and this is why he explicitly told both men and women to dress modestly.
 

Lady

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LOL! Having to think that you have to wear a head covering or a long dress to go the washroom is absolutely ridiculous. Wherever she picked that up from is straight up lunacy. The Islamic dress code was designed for protecting one's honour and staving off the stares of men that are not a part of your family. At home when it's just you and your husband the dress code becomes a lot more relaxed.

This was a decision between her husband and herself before God. I do not wear a head covering ( ball cap and cowboy hat maybe!) but it was an area of spiritual growth for them similar to what we all go through in our own ways.
 

Lady

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islam and hijab has always been a controversial topic. Everyone views it in their own way and has their own spin, I think it's important that the main idea is to dress modestly

Modesty in itself is debatable, some would say jeans and a baggy top is modest others would argue a dress. I think we have to be realistic, where I live it's cold most of the year so many girls have to wear trousers but loose fitting and a long jumper or coat. Their figures aren't on display and they look pretty modest with their headscarves covering their chest.

Personally I'm of the opinion that a skirt or dress or loose fitting trousers (so no skinny jeans) are the best way to display ones modesty. The covering of the hair with a headscarf is also pretty common practice for me and most Muslim women HOWEVER this is just my opinion and I don't believe God or his book complicates the way women dress, Muslims do.

There are so many decent and wholesome believing women who aren't quite ready to wear a headscarf or aren't quite there with their attire but that doesn't in any way define their relationship with God. It's important to remember everyone has their struggles there's a difference between someone consciously opposing covering modestly like God ordered or someone who's on the journey to enlightenment.

I completely disagree that a veil, khimar or abaya or jilbab are the so called uniform of Islam. It's ridiculous to suggest such a thing, you can dress just as modest with a long skirt or a long garment. We need to stop labelling what women wear in Islam there's too much of an emphasis on how we look and not much emphasis on how to empower our young women and inspire them to become better people. With a society constantly denying God's existence we should focus on instilling the fundamental pinnacles of faith e.g. Prayer, charity, fasting etc instead of nitpicking at what women wear.

I started to wear my headscarf at the age of 21 because I was so selfconcious and often felt excluded by the khimar and Jilbab crew. They were so quick to tell me what I was doing wrong but never commented on all the things I was doing right. You isolate and drive people away if you keep telling them my way is hijab not your way

There also needs to be more emphasis on hijab for men! Their awra and chastisy needs to be mentioned as well
Well said. I made the same point about modesty for men on the prior VC forum. When we realize that we-our real selves, our spirits-dwell in a sinful flesh suit we should not want to glorify it in any way.

Everything we do should "speak" to others of God, especially since the bible calls Christians to be "living epistles."
We should correctly reflect the character and nature of God.
 
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Haich

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Well said. I made the same point about modesty for men on the prior VC forum. When we realize that we-our real selves, our spirits-dwell in a sinful flesh suit we should not want to glorify it in any way.

Everything we do should "speak" to others of God, especially since the bible calls Christians to be "living epistles."
We should correctly reflect the character and nature of God.
True we're representing our faiths, they both call for modesty and humility. However we should encourage each other to do as best we can instead of condemning those who wear a headscarf or not. I guess like all religion it comes down to interpretation but we also have to be logical, why would God order the face veil or a ridiculously long and large piece of clothing wrapping her body like somebody mummy? As long as your figure isn't on display you're fine !
 

Venus

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Who would have thought that a thread on the Religious Forum would make me re-join the VC forums... and here I am :D

Like an old sinner who was raised in a traditional religion and also once belonged to a cult, I find it very interesting these discussions about women's options in clothing. I'm all for freedom and choice, but I also believe you have to respect others options and cultures.

Ideally, in a perfect world, the need for banning wouldn't exist, but for the same reason that women is forbidden to wear certain clothing pieces in some Muslims countries, some clothing options made by women should be at least restricted in western countries. I have nothing against a woman that chooses to wear a full body covering if that is REALLY HER CHOICE, but in western countries, not been able to see the face of the person you are talking too is troubling, not to mention that it can perfectly be a way of deceiving the people around you. You really don't know who is inside the covers, and that is deceiving.

In the exact same way that I should be expected to follow and respect, if not totally adhere to the customs of the place I'm living and/or visiting, others should be expected of the same when they are living/visiting other places different from their original community.


Only recently have women adopting wearing the clothes of men. For much of human history, women have always worn long dresses. Pants and jeans were designed for men but this twisted satanic society that wants men to be women and vice versa have confused our perception.
Women adopted wearing pants when they had to go to work during WWII when most or the men were out fighting the war and not home producing airplanes, guns, and ammunition. Wearing pants was not only more comfortable for those factory jobs, it was also a safety issue.
Wearing long loose dresses is comfortable, as so is wearing pants.

Modesty is all good until it sends the message (and it is what is doing) that is a women's fault to be sexually abused because of her clothing options. I understand men will be men and will stare and have impure thoughts, but I'm also convinced that men are more that just animals and can learn to control those thoughts, or at the very least, learn not to act on them. Also, men need to understand that they alone are responsible for their thoughts and actions, as women are responsible for hers. If you (men and women) have not control over your most basic instincts, then what differentiates you from animals?

Oh, and those wedding dresses are just breathtakingly beautiful!
 

Kung Fu

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Women adopted wearing pants when they had to go to work during WWII when most or the men were out fighting the war and not home producing airplanes, guns, and ammunition. Wearing pants was not only more comfortable for those factory jobs, it was also a safety issue.
Wearing long loose dresses is comfortable, as so is wearing pants.
Just one of the many reasons in which I believe that WWII was not only to fight against fascism as they keep on telling us. Funny how after the war women wearing the clothes of men only increased and continues to increase now. This one event which is shrouded with lies has changed us males and women so much and continues to affect us today. I wonder why ;)?

Modesty is all good until it sends the message (and it is what is doing) that is a women's fault to be sexually abused because of her clothing options. I understand men will be men and will stare and have impure thoughts, but I'm also convinced that men are more that just animals and can learn to control those thoughts, or at the very least, learn not to act on them. Also, men need to understand that they alone are responsible for their thoughts and actions, as women are responsible for hers. If you (men and women) have not control over your most basic instincts, then what differentiates you from animals?
We already know that the men that are involved in sexual abuse are offenders that need to be jailed but women are not totally innocent either. For example here in Toronto there was a female York University student raped. Now we know the perpetrator is guilty and deserves to be punished but this woman who was jogging in shorts and a tank top at 1 am in the morning on an isolated street also needs be held accountable for her own stupidity. Of course, men are responsible for their own actions but women should also be held accountable for her illogical decision making.
 

Lady

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@Venus
If you watched the video in the OP, you would probably agree with many of the speaker's points. She also comments on the issue of men who prey on women and who have pushed the responsibility for THEIR actions on to that of women.
I strongly suggest viewing it, if you have not. I would like your opinion on some of these points made about the early solution to the r*pe of the women as they toilet at night outside city limits. Then moving forward in time, does this solution still hold up for today's muslimahs, or has there been some tampering and insertions into the Quranic texts
which pervert and change the original meaning into something it was never meant to be.

Also, for Muslims who care to answer my own question related to the modern insertions that change original meanings: which authority do Muslims regard as higher-Mohammed's or the later clerics? And why?
 
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Venus

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Just one of the many reasons in which I believe that WWII was not only to fight against fascism as they keep on telling us. Funny how after the war women wearing the clothes of men only increased and continues to increase now. This one event which is shrouded with lies has changed us males and women so much and continues to affect us today. I wonder why ;)?
Is not as easy as that, WWII was, as most world events, a charade to pursue other interests. I can not give you real answers, in part because I grew up in a different country and culture. I wear dresses and pants, and sometimes, wearing pants is more comfortable and efficient than wearing a dress, regardless of the fact that the job you are doing is typically a men or women's job.

We already know that the men that are involved in sexual abuse are offenders that need to be jailed but women are not totally innocent either. For example here in Toronto there was a female York University student raped. Now we know the perpetrator is guilty and deserves to be punished but this woman who was jogging in shorts and a tank top at 1 am in the morning on an isolated street also needs be held accountable for her own stupidity. Of course, men are responsible for their own actions but women should also be held accountable for her illogical decision making.
That;s exactly why I said: "Also, men need to understand that they alone are responsible for their thoughts and actions, as women are responsible for hers."
 

Venus

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@Venus
I strongly suggest viewing it, if you have not. I would like your opinion on some of these points made about the early solution to the r*pe of the women as they toilet at night outside city limits. Then moving forward in time, does this solution still hold up for today's muslimahs, or has there been some tampering and insertions into the Quranic texts
which pervert and change the original meaning into something it was never meant to be.
Also, my own question related to the modern insertions that change original meanings: which authority do Muslims regard as higher-Mohammed's or the later clerics? And why?
I will, I just can't while at work.
 

Kung Fu

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Clothes have nothing to do with gender. Men in the past wore long flowing robes and stuff like that before pants were invented.
Clothes have a lot to do with gender. There are plenty of academic books that discuss this issue. Your average male in much of the world have always worn pants of some fashion women, on the other hand, have never worn pants until after WWII.

Priests and others wear flowing robes only during ceremonial rituals and or events but outside of that, it has been some form of pants.

Please, Mecca, stop making claims that you have no evidence for. I know you're young but know that when you make a claim you have to provide the proper evidence for said claim.
 

Lady

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Clothes have a lot to do with gender. There are plenty of academic books that discuss this issue. Your average male in much of the world have always worn pants of some fashion women, on the other hand, have never worn pants until after WWII.

Priests and others wear flowing robes only during ceremonial rituals and or events but outside of that, it has been some form of pants.

Please, Mecca, stop making claims that you have no evidence for. I know you're young but know that when you make a claim you have to provide the proper evidence for said claim.

All replies are welcome equally here. Sometimes out of the mouths of babes comes great truth.
 

rainerann

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I was watching a documentary called girls of the Taliban yesterday, which was very interesting. In Afghanistan they have begun teaching children Islam in Madrassa's, which are religious schools that don't teach other subjects like math or science.

One girl there says that she learns that women are not allowed to have a job according to sharia. Women can't be ministers, kings, or work in a office.

Another girl says that women's rights and duties are clear in Islamic teaching and are misunderstood in the west. Then, she goes on to say that the husband is the boss and the women is the employee. Therefore, I don't think the west has a misunderstanding of Islam if this is what it teaches. This is exactly the kind of teaching that the west would object to.

In these schools the men teach the girls behind a curtain because there is a strict separation of male teachers and female students. However, one of the teachers of the school has taken one of the girls as his second wife nevertheless.

This makes sense to me because whether or not there is a veil separating the male teacher from the female students, this man still goes to work every day knowing that he is teaching young girls. Apparently, knowing this still motivated him to want to have one so he made took one of them for a second wife.

It just proves that you can't change that a woman is a woman is a woman even if you can't see the woman.

Then, while watching these girls, it just seemed so silly to me to think that covering up was somehow a way to prevent people from seeing how pretty they were because you can still see their eyes. They have beautiful eyes will no lines or wrinkles like beautiful young girls. How is anyone supposed to get me to believe that covering up entirely does not still leave the possibility that a man could see beautiful eyes and force himself to be able to see more. This is no way to prevent r*pe.

The other things I noticed that I didn't realize would bother me so much is the gloves. The gloves make me feel sad in a way I did not expect. Just what does one of these girls think when they are putting these on everyday?

Then, they showed class time where the teacher who had taken one of the student's for his second wife taught the girls that there are three things that deserve the death penalty in Islam. One is if you kill someone. One is if you commit adultery. The third person, "who must be killed is the non-believer. A Muslim in an Islamic country who denounces Islam. He should be given three days and his doubts should be discussed. But if he doesn’t repent after three days, the Islamic government must issue an order and he should be hanged."

I know most of the Muslims here disagree with this and the point is not whether or not it is or isn't part of Islam. The point is that it is part of the curriculum for these girls, which brings up the subject of choice in wearing the veil. If you are being told that you will be killed if you leave Islam, is there really a choice in wearing the veil? Is it really possible that all of these girls wake up every morning and say, "Yes, I want to wear this because it will protect my modesty," and that some percentage still wonders whether or not they will die if they don't.

Therefore, for every women in the west who wears the veil and tries to convince someone that it is there choice to do so and that they won't be risking death if they leave Islam, there is another women who does not have this choice. How do we support them in the west? How do we let them know that this is not something they have to fear?

For me, there will never be a day I will support the veil in my country because of things like this. I cannot ever support something coming into my country that is represented this way in other countries. There is no real way that I can see to separate the two theologies. Essentially, wearing the veil is being a member of these madrassa's that are teaching these girls these things in other countries. The only difference is that you wouldn't be allowed to teach things like this in the west and that is the way it should stay.

As a religious person myself, I believe in justice. Where there is injustice like this there should not be advocacy of things that perpetuate this theology in other cultures by adopting the same dress code. It shows support for things that we are only protected from because we are in the west. God forbid that would change.

Therefore, I still support a ban on the veil in west as a result of watching this video as a way of boycotting these toxic teachings and showing support for the women who presently object to them as will in Afghanistan.
 

Kung Fu

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I was watching a documentary called girls of the Taliban yesterday, which was very interesting. In Afghanistan they have begun teaching children Islam in Madrassa's, which are religious schools that don't teach other subjects like math or science.

One girl there says that she learns that women are not allowed to have a job according to sharia. Women can't be ministers, kings, or work in a office.

Another girl says that women's rights and duties are clear in Islamic teaching and are misunderstood in the west. Then, she goes on to say that the husband is the boss and the women is the employee. Therefore, I don't think the west has a misunderstanding of Islam if this is what it teaches. This is exactly the kind of teaching that the west would object to.

In these schools the men teach the girls behind a curtain because there is a strict separation of male teachers and female students. However, one of the teachers of the school has taken one of the girls as his second wife nevertheless.

This makes sense to me because whether or not there is a veil separating the male teacher from the female students, this man still goes to work every day knowing that he is teaching young girls. Apparently, knowing this still motivated him to want to have one so he made took one of them for a second wife.

It just proves that you can't change that a woman is a woman is a woman even if you can't see the woman.

Then, while watching these girls, it just seemed so silly to me to think that covering up was somehow a way to prevent people from seeing how pretty they were because you can still see their eyes. They have beautiful eyes will no lines or wrinkles like beautiful young girls. How is anyone supposed to get me to believe that covering up entirely does not still leave the possibility that a man could see beautiful eyes and force himself to be able to see more. This is no way to prevent r*pe.

The other things I noticed that I didn't realize would bother me so much is the gloves. The gloves make me feel sad in a way I did not expect. Just what does one of these girls think when they are putting these on everyday?

Then, they showed class time where the teacher who had taken one of the student's for his second wife taught the girls that there are three things that deserve the death penalty in Islam. One is if you kill someone. One is if you commit adultery. The third person, "who must be killed is the non-believer. A Muslim in an Islamic country who denounces Islam. He should be given three days and his doubts should be discussed. But if he doesn’t repent after three days, the Islamic government must issue an order and he should be hanged."

I know most of the Muslims here disagree with this and the point is not whether or not it is or isn't part of Islam. The point is that it is part of the curriculum for these girls, which brings up the subject of choice in wearing the veil. If you are being told that you will be killed if you leave Islam, is there really a choice in wearing the veil? Is it really possible that all of these girls wake up every morning and say, "Yes, I want to wear this because it will protect my modesty," and that some percentage still wonders whether or not they will die if they don't.

Therefore, for every women in the west who wears the veil and tries to convince someone that it is there choice to do so and that they won't be risking death if they leave Islam, there is another women who does not have this choice. How do we support them in the west? How do we let them know that this is not something they have to fear?

For me, there will never be a day I will support the veil in my country because of things like this. I cannot ever support something coming into my country that is represented this way in other countries. There is no real way that I can see to separate the two theologies. Essentially, wearing the veil is being a member of these madrassa's that are teaching these girls these things in other countries. The only difference is that you wouldn't be allowed to teach things like this in the west and that is the way it should stay.

As a religious person myself, I believe in justice. Where there is injustice like this there should not be advocacy of things that perpetuate this theology in other cultures by adopting the same dress code. It shows support for things that we are only protected from because we are in the west. God forbid that would change.

Therefore, I still support a ban on the veil in west as a result of watching this video as a way of boycotting these toxic teachings and showing support for the women who presently object to them as will in Afghanistan.
LOL! Typical. I can fully debunk this nonsense that you continually bring here but there's no point since your sensitive emotional hurt feelings got the better of you and blocked me.

Can someone of sound knowledge and with an ability to think logically can you please respond to her nonsense.
 
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