Thoughts On The Original Quranic View Of Women

[Lady]

Yes it is messed up. What do those parentheses mean, then?

 

[manama]

Yes it is messed up. What do those parentheses mean, then?

its a way so translation would be easy, these are not parts of the original verses or part of the Quran.
The original verse (same one which grateful quoted)
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

These toxic mullahs twist the verses to suit their own toxic views. Like how the other version (quoted by grateful) mentions that "(i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way)"
This is so wrong.
The original verse doesn't say that even if you read it in the arabic dialect. This is a huge problem among the muslim society today. I had a talk with a woman not to long ago who was trying to justify face veil by using a verse which says "loosen your garments" which basically means not to wear body tight clothes to the point there is no difference between being naked and clothed. But she said it means wear a face veil SMH


so yea these bracket texts are tafseer depending on the translator. They aren't the part of the verse.

 

[JoChris]

Sadly that is very believable.
Shows what happens when outward moral guides and laws are created but hearts are not changed.

Both men and women look for any loopholes to commandments they do not wish to follow.

 

[manama]

Just watched the video.


Loved it.

 

[Lady]

Just watched the video.


Loved it.

You amaze me. It is very encouraging to know that there is another perspective among Muslims.

 

[manama]

You amaze me. It is very encouraging to know that there is another perspective among Muslims.

I've been against face veil and burqa and all these other "fatwas", ever since i started i study Islam, even though i do support the covering of head and dressing modestly part as it is a part of Quran and not really about society(you can't go and roam naked just because some place has the custom of being naked for a day), a point on which i disagree with her BUT overall it was a great video.

And then get attacked by bunch of "muslims" for calling me a fake muslim LOL.
We are badly divided because of this sect stuff going on sadly.

 

[Lady]

I've been against face veil and burqa and all these other "fatwas", ever since i started i study Islam, even though i do support the covering of head and dressing modestly part as it is a part of Quran and not really about society(you can't go and roam naked just because some place has the custom of being naked for a day), a point on which i disagree with her BUT overall it was a great video.

And then get attacked by bunch of "muslims" for calling me a fake muslim LOL.
We are badly divided because of this sect stuff going on sadly.

You are definitely going against the grain with your views here and I am not surprised that you are attacked for them.
It will be a hard road for you, but your voice needs to be heard among your fellow Muslims.
I think you represent the thinking of the next generation of Muslims.

 

[mecca]

I think you represent the thinking of next generation of Muslims.

Any logical, non sexist people will think like that as well.

 

[rainerann]

I think living in a theocracy contributes to the problem. People change a lot over the course of their experience in religion. Within a theocracy, the opportunity to independently grow is limited.

@Karlysymon and I were involved in a similar discussion where I could recognize that certain practices are part of acclimating yourself to a religion similar to what I have experienced. I have gone through many phases myself as a Christian. However, I am not obligated to any particular phase. I remember the first time I heard the KJV only discussion and thought it was important. I changed out my Bible and got a KJV and I tried to read it. However, after about six months where reading the KJV didn't help me understand anything the way I could understand things before with a ESV, like how Jesus show mercy and defended people when the Pharisees accused him. Simple things like this even if there was a argument over this subject. When I read the ESV, I could understand and this helped me feel more peace than when I was studying the KJV Bible.

I attribute this to the degree of my affliction. I was suffering and I wasn't endeavoring to become a theologian. So I didn't need a concordance. I needed to know the context of Jesus' message.

Anyways, I was able to change from reading one version, to becoming a reader of KJV, to changing back to reading other versions. This has contributed to how much I enjoy my faith, not whether or not I am a Christian, but that I actually look forward to learning something new about my faith because I am not bound to one phase in my spiritual growth over another. Growing spiritually is not something I dread because I am limited by a rule of law that says that the only version of the Bible has to be the KJV even though the English language has continued to change since it was published.

In a theocracy, you would be prevented from doing this. Therefore, whether or not there is room for a different interpretation, the application of this is not possible within a theocracy. Therefore, women will be bound to the role that the theocracy interprets from the Quran, and this will be exceptionally difficult to change because of the way religion and government are meshed together. Breaking a rule of a religion is different than breaking a rule of a government. Breaking a rule within a religion brings about a greater amount of questions about how this affects the spiritual destiny of person beyond this life. So challenging a theocracy when you know that it carries much more serious consequences than jail time in this life, is very difficult to do. Especially, if you are not able to understand how to challenge it within your religious writings.

 

[Lady]

@manama
I hope the other Muslims on here will consider your viewpoint. It is great that you are so open to discussion about your convictions within your faith. This does not happen often!

 

[manama]

@manama
I hope the other Muslims on here will consider your viewpoint. It is great that you are so open to discussion about your convictions within your faith. This does not happen often!

Debating and criticizing religion is really productive. Sad that more people refrain from doing so.

 

[Lady]

@rainerann
I have a personal testimony regarding this, Rainerann.
I was a member of a very fundamental denomination and know the pressure to conform. It is tremendous, and for some reason, it is strongest among the women.
I spent a decade there knowing I did not believe the doctrines I was adhering to and yes, I was miserable.

 

[rainerann]

@rainerann
I have a personal testimony regarding this, Rainerann.
I was a member of a very fundamental denomination and know the pressure to conform. It is tremendous, and for some reason, it is strongest among the women.
I spent a decade there knowing I did not believe the doctrines I was adhering to and yes, I was miserable.

This is why I don't think theocracy can work in this world. Imagine if that pressure came from government and there were no alternatives.

The problem is that people will die after a short time, so there is an insufficient to develop our spiritual life in order to create a quality theocracy that truly demonstrates a religion.

Instead, we are born. We spend a certain amount of time in immaturity. It is usually a consequence of this immaturity that causes someone to consider religion. We become parrots of this religion for a time and then some of us are able to move beyond this parroting period to a deeper level of spiritually maturity. However, even this deeper level of spiritual maturity is insufficient to establish a theocracy with.

Therefore, theocracy is just a bad idea. It quenches spiritual life and growth.

 

[grateful servant]

There is much more to the issue than what was mentioned in the video and what has been mentioned by the young Muslim women here. Words in the Arabic language have linguistic meanings (hijab - "to sheild from") and technical/applied meanings as any student of the Arabic language would know.

The explanations in parentheses or brackets are not from 'toxic mullahs' but the Prophet's companions - from the original tafseer. When understood in light of other verses and hadiths, it becomes clear that veiling is a command from God to all of the believing women for all time.

I don't know exactly which year after the Prophet's migration to Madinah that Almighty God sent down the verses concerning modesty and veiling, but it was at least 15 years after the commencement of the revelation. Believing women take the Prophet's wives as role models and best examples to follow. If Almighty God commanded the Prophet's wives (who were the most moral and purest of women) to cover themselves, how much more important is it for us (believing women), who do not even have an ounce of the faith that they did, to do so as well?

Almighty God is Most Wise and All Knowing. He sent down the Quran over the course of 23 years and for the first 13 of them, Muhammad preached in Makkah with his message focussed on one thing: Tawheed - Pure Monotheism. Surely women were going out at night to use the privy then too, and I'm sure some were being assaulted as well. But the issue of veiling was revealed some 15 years later at the time when Almighty God ordained for them to be revealed.

Anyways, I won't add anything else to this thread which, to me, was started for nefarious reasons, but I will leave with a passage from an article which may shed more light on the status of women and hijab in Islam.

Amidst the hustle and bustle of a teeming metropolis, a solitary figure traverses. She moves steadily in her black garment which shields her against the tyranny of this life. Whilst others around her rush frantically, she move with tranquillity and ease. The peace which she achieves beneath this veil of hers, is immense. It is a liberation beyond measure. Is this a princess of royal blood? No. Is she a head of state? No. So who is this woman of serenity? This is a woman of Hijaab. A woman amongst many women. A Muslim Woman.


The site of a woman covering from top to bottom, is not so rare anymore in the major cities of the West. For many Westerners it represents the oppression which Islam imposes upon women. For Muslims however, it is the realisation that Islam will eventually reach every corner of this planet. This is not surprising, considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. What is surprising, for Westerners, is that 7 out of 10 (70%) people who become Muslim are Women! It is these same women who then go on to willingly observe the Hijab without coercion or force. The women of Hijaab in the cities of London, Paris, New York etc, are not all immigrants who have just stepped off the boat, as many people think. Rather, many of them tend to be women of high intellect and education. Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression. Women of diverse nationalities and races, who are brought together as one, under the banner of Islam.


An Islaamic Duty


Ever since the appearance of Hijaab in the west, there has been a constant crusade against this noble act. The hypocrisy of the Western media has been evident for many years now, through its constant attacks on Islam and Hijaab. Despite these attempts, women in Hijaab are still on the increase. Thus, a new crusade had to be launched by the advocates of “liberation” and “freedom”. For a while now, many Western critics have insisted that the Hijaab has nothing to do with Islaam. They claim that it is a cultural practice and not a religious one. This has been broadcast in the Western media with the aid of its puppets, the modernist Muslims. People such as Dr Zaki Badawi, have pushed this erroneous view for a number of years now. This has led to much confusion amongst ignorant Muslims, and many Muslim women are being led into depriving themselves of this great benefit. So what is the reality behind this issue? Is the Hijaab obligatory?


Hijab is an Arabic word which literally means a cover, a screen or a partition. Islamically it refers to the dress code of the Muslim woman. In answering the above question, as Muslims we unashamedly say, Yes!, the Hijaab IS OBLIGATORY!! The proofs for this obligation are many, but due to lack of space we will only quote two here. In the Qur’an Allaah says:


“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty, and not to display their adornment except that which appears ordinarily thereof, and to draw their veils over their necks and bosoms..”


(Sura An-Noor 24:31)


About the words “..except that which appears ordinarily thereof..”, then the scholars of Islam have explained that these words refer to the hands and face of a woman. This is supported by the hadith of the Prophet (Sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa Sallam) : “Aisha reported that Asmaa, the daughter of Abu Bakr, entered into the presence of the Messenger of Allaah wearing thin transparent clothing, So the Messenger of Allaah turned away from her saying : ‘O’ Asmaa, when a women reaches the age of menstruation, it is not allowed that any of her should be seen except this’ – and he pointed to his face and two hands.” The Hijaab is therefore something which MUST cover the entire body of a woman, except her face and hands. It is NOT a simple headscarf which many women wear, because a piece of cloth on the head does not conceal the parts of a woman’s body, which when exposed, are the result of much strife. Besides covering the entire body, the Hijaab also has other conditions, such as not being tight, transparent, too colourful or resembling the clothes of a man. These conditions are also proven from Islaam.
---

 

[Lady]

Thank you for your expected reply, SG. I had a feeling that I would hear from you.
I am sure that the young Muslims here are not approved by the veterans.
The young Muslim generation needs help and a voice. From what I am finding out about this next generation is that they are in a state of flux-especially those in Europe. They are not finding the answers they crave in the same adherence to tradition as their parents. This is according to another Muslim woman who has made it her mission to help with this age group. I will link the video, it is somewhat off-topic from the OP but very much relevant to this forum in particular.

 

[grateful servant]

Thank you for your expected reply, SG. I had a feeling that I would hear from you.
I am sure that the young Muslims here are not approved by the veterans.
The young Muslim generation needs help and a voice. From what I am finding out about this next generation is that they are in a state of flux-especially those in Europe. They are not finding the answers they crave in the same traditions found in their parents. This is according to another Muslim woman who has made it her mission to help with this age group. I will link the video, it is somewhat off-topic from the OP but very much relevant to this forum in particular.

You're welcome. All good for the Muslims- male and female - no matter what generation they are in, comes from following the Quran and Sunnah. They know this. I don't disapprove of the younger Muslimahs here and I pray that God keeps their hearts turned to Him in every situation that they find themselves in.

 

[grateful servant]

Yes it is messed up. What do those parentheses mean, then?

What's messed up is a young Muslimah being encouraged to talk badly about the mufasireen and translators of Quran by an Islam hating mushrikah.

I already told you in my first post what the parentheses mean:

Where the words in parentheses are nothing more than tafseer (explanation/exegesis) as given by Muhammad himself or his close companions who were present during the revelation.

What's the point of asking for opinions if you aren't even going to read the replies?

And if manama reads the hadith and tafsir of the aayaat as she claims to, then she would know that the transcribers of that particular translation of the Quran who added the tafsir in parentheses were not using their own "twisted toxic interpretation" to justify the oppression of women but including explanations given by ibn abbas, ibn masoud, and other from the pious predecessors who gave their health, wealth and lives to spread the message of Islam.

 

[mecca]

What's messed up is a young Muslimah being encouraged to talk badly about the mufasireen and translators of Quran by an Islam hating mushrikah.

I already told you in my first post what the parentheses mean:

Where the words in parentheses are nothing more than tafseer (explanation/exegesis) as given by Muhammad himself or his close companions who were present during the revelation.

What's the point of asking for opinions if you aren't even going to read the replies?

And if manama reads the hadith and tafsir of the aayaat as she claims to, then she would know that the transcribers of that particular translation of the Quran who added the tafsir in parentheses were not using their own "twisted toxic interpretation" to justify the oppression of women but including explanations given by ibn abbas, ibn masoud, and other from the pious predecessors who gave their health, wealth and lives to spread the message of Islam.

All I know is that women don't have to wear a hijab if they don't want to.

 

[manama]

What's messed up is a young Muslimah being encouraged to talk badly about the mufasireen and translators of Quran by an Islam hating mushrikah.

I already told you in my first post what the parentheses mean:

Where the words in parentheses are nothing more than tafseer (explanation/exegesis) as given by Muhammad himself or his close companions who were present during the revelation.

What's the point of asking for opinions if you aren't even going to read the replies?

And if manama reads the hadith and tafsir of the aayaat as she claims to, then she would know that the transcribers of that particular translation of the Quran who added the tafsir in parentheses were not using their own "twisted toxic interpretation" to justify the oppression of women but including explanations given by ibn abbas, ibn masoud, and other from the pious predecessors who gave their health, wealth and lives to spread the message of Islam.

First of all my religion is my business, i can hate whoever if i want to.

Second, some of them are interpretations taken from the tafseer by the companions. All of them? no. there are bunch of toxic additions. As far as the particular quoted verse goes. "Covering yourself from head to toe, Wearing face veil only exposing one eye or both if necessary" -----> none of that is part of Islam and no where if you read the original verse does it say that through any dialect. For me my religious teachings end at what my prophet taught and God and the prophets before prophet p.b.u.h. I am not going to believe any imam unless he justifies it from quran and authentic hadith which most can't.

When you wear a face veil you can't perform obligatory prayer (salat) nor can you perform pilgrimage, so how are people justifying face veil? Cuz i don't see prophet s.a.w teaching that and i don't see God saying that. And prophet and God matters more than my local mullah.

 

[manama]

There is much more to the issue than what was mentioned in the video and what has been mentioned by the young Muslim women here. Words in the Arabic language have linguistic meanings (hijab - "to sheild from") and technical/applied meanings as any student of the Arabic language would know.

The explanations in parentheses or brackets are not from 'toxic mullahs' but the Prophet's companions - from the original tafseer. When understood in light of other verses and hadiths, it becomes clear that veiling is a command from God to all of the believing women for all time.

I don't know exactly which year after the Prophet's migration to Madinah that Almighty God sent down the verses concerning modesty and veiling, but it was at least 15 years after the commencement of the revelation. Believing women take the Prophet's wives as role models and best examples to follow. If Almighty God commanded the Prophet's wives (who were the most moral and purest of women) to cover themselves, how much more important is it for us (believing women), who do not even have an ounce of the faith that they did, to do so as well?

Almighty God is Most Wise and All Knowing. He sent down the Quran over the course of 23 years and for the first 13 of them, Muhammad preached in Makkah with his message focussed on one thing: Tawheed - Pure Monotheism. Surely women were going out at night to use the privy then too, and I'm sure some were being assaulted as well. But the issue of veiling was revealed some 15 years later at the time when Almighty God ordained for them to be revealed.

Anyways, I won't add anything else to this thread which, to me, was started for nefarious reasons, but I will leave with a passage from an article which may shed more light on the status of women and hijab in Islam.

Amidst the hustle and bustle of a teeming metropolis, a solitary figure traverses. She moves steadily in her black garment which shields her against the tyranny of this life. Whilst others around her rush frantically, she move with tranquillity and ease. The peace which she achieves beneath this veil of hers, is immense. It is a liberation beyond measure. Is this a princess of royal blood? No. Is she a head of state? No. So who is this woman of serenity? This is a woman of Hijaab. A woman amongst many women. A Muslim Woman.


The site of a woman covering from top to bottom, is not so rare anymore in the major cities of the West. For many Westerners it represents the oppression which Islam imposes upon women. For Muslims however, it is the realisation that Islam will eventually reach every corner of this planet. This is not surprising, considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. What is surprising, for Westerners, is that 7 out of 10 (70%) people who become Muslim are Women! It is these same women who then go on to willingly observe the Hijab without coercion or force. The women of Hijaab in the cities of London, Paris, New York etc, are not all immigrants who have just stepped off the boat, as many people think. Rather, many of them tend to be women of high intellect and education. Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression. Women of diverse nationalities and races, who are brought together as one, under the banner of Islam.


An Islaamic Duty


Ever since the appearance of Hijaab in the west, there has been a constant crusade against this noble act. The hypocrisy of the Western media has been evident for many years now, through its constant attacks on Islam and Hijaab. Despite these attempts, women in Hijaab are still on the increase. Thus, a new crusade had to be launched by the advocates of “liberation” and “freedom”. For a while now, many Western critics have insisted that the Hijaab has nothing to do with Islaam. They claim that it is a cultural practice and not a religious one. This has been broadcast in the Western media with the aid of its puppets, the modernist Muslims. People such as Dr Zaki Badawi, have pushed this erroneous view for a number of years now. This has led to much confusion amongst ignorant Muslims, and many Muslim women are being led into depriving themselves of this great benefit. So what is the reality behind this issue? Is the Hijaab obligatory?


Hijab is an Arabic word which literally means a cover, a screen or a partition. Islamically it refers to the dress code of the Muslim woman. In answering the above question, as Muslims we unashamedly say, Yes!, the Hijaab IS OBLIGATORY!! The proofs for this obligation are many, but due to lack of space we will only quote two here. In the Qur’an Allaah says:


“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty, and not to display their adornment except that which appears ordinarily thereof, and to draw their veils over their necks and bosoms..”


(Sura An-Noor 24:31)


About the words “..except that which appears ordinarily thereof..”, then the scholars of Islam have explained that these words refer to the hands and face of a woman. This is supported by the hadith of the Prophet (Sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa Sallam) : “Aisha reported that Asmaa, the daughter of Abu Bakr, entered into the presence of the Messenger of Allaah wearing thin transparent clothing, So the Messenger of Allaah turned away from her saying : ‘O’ Asmaa, when a women reaches the age of menstruation, it is not allowed that any of her should be seen except this’ – and he pointed to his face and two hands.” The Hijaab is therefore something which MUST cover the entire body of a woman, except her face and hands. It is NOT a simple headscarf which many women wear, because a piece of cloth on the head does not conceal the parts of a woman’s body, which when exposed, are the result of much strife. Besides covering the entire body, the Hijaab also has other conditions, such as not being tight, transparent, too colourful or resembling the clothes of a man. These conditions are also proven from Islaam.
---

I find it ironic that people say "these verses only apply to that time", and then they say "these are for eternity" , where do you draw the line? Because the line is drawn by checking whether they were addressing someone at the time specifically or where they addressing all. And that says alot

Burqa is cultural, lets leave it at that, i also not remember quran saying wear an extra loose black thing over already worn clothes. If wearing burqa protected someone from being assaulted, nobody wearing it would get assaulted yet 70%+ women do get assaulted. So if this applied to every era of the earth, it isn't really working. But it doesn't apply.

"Hijaab also has other conditions, such as not being tight, transparent, too colourful or resembling the clothes of a man"

I don't remember anywhere it saying "not wear too colorful clothes".

The woman in the video never said do not dress modestly, because what she was wearing was also modest covering everything except hands, feet and face (hair too but ill not include that here), i don't see anything wrong with wearing anything similar.

"because a piece of cloth on the head does not conceal the parts of a woman’s body, which when exposed, are the result of much strife"

I wish for the day when women wear hijab for their love for God and the religion and not because some random man down the street will get turned on.