Trumped

[Karlysymon]

So, who can explain how Venezuela will right itself with no intervention?

So iam not being objective? i can't believe you are for intervention. Is sending troops the only way to improve the situation? I believe it can be helped but not with boots on the ground.

How many know what is actually happening there on a day to day basis.

Neither you nor i live there so we are all dependent on news outlets; mainstream and alternative.

So, it is only Trumps fault the US pulls out of ME while possibly going south? Are some of you not paying attention to Venezuela's plight? People are hungry.

just that some are not objective.

Whose name do you want me to use? Trump is at the helm, the face of his administration. So do you want me to say that Bolton is sending troops?

Can you guarantee that this intervention won't turn Venezuela into a hell-hole like Libya or Syria, sending millions of refugees northwards? Since the Arab Spring, 'humanitarian intervention' has been the line used to destroy countries. So i will not believe that its for the good of the Venezuelans.

 

[The Zone]

I will address all later. Working. ALso, fwiw, why do some think my posts are specifically addressed to them when I do not mention their name? My question remains what do you do without intervention and fwiw 2, my friends wife is from there and has some tales.

 

[Lurker]

turn Venezuela into a hell-hole

By all account, it's already a hell hole. js

 

[Colonel Valerio]

I will address all later. Working. ALso, fwiw, why do some think my posts are specifically addressed to them when I do not mention their name? My question remains what do you do without intervention and fwiw 2, my friends wife is from there and has some tales.

If you truly cared about the people you could send food-aid without conditions on who their government is. Sanctions will only hurt the poor, and a violent revolution or intervention will turn the country into a failed state. Even if the opposition is in charge they will just sell away their resources to foreign investors. Maybe the only thing to do is nothing. Elliot Abrams is a war criminal who has created death squads throughout SA in the 80s.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/02/01/the-worst-option-is-war-us-intervention-in-venezuela-will-only-deepen-the-countrys-crisis/


https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/02/01/elliott-abrams-a-human-rights-horror-show-in-three-acts/

 

[Lurker]

send food-aid without conditions on who their government is

The problem with that is humanitarian aid never really reaches the people.

turn the country into a failed state

It is a failed state.

Maybe the only thing to do is nothing

Probably the best course of action. But would you be able to sleep at night?

 

[Colonel Valerio]

The problem with that is humanitarian aid never really reaches the people.

It is a failed state.

Probably the best course of action. But would you be able to sleep at night?

Just like sanctions never hurt the regime but the masses?

Ok a Libya-Style failed state. It could be worse and a civil war isn’t going to help either.

I haven’t had a good nights sleep in a decade so I think I’ll be ok. There will be suffering either way and every US sponsored coup in South America has led to brutal dictatorships. Chile stands out here.

Again when has as a US humanitarian intervention actually worked?

 

[The Zone]

https://www.economist.com/unknown/2002/05/15/intervention-that-worked

Unless you truly study the situation you will not see that the world sitting back is killing people daily.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

https://www.economist.com/unknown/2002/05/15/intervention-that-worked

Unless you truly study the situation you will not see that the world sitting back is killing people daily.

Well I don’t want to hear anything again about us being blinded by the MSM or whatever, the Economist, really?

The world sitting back kills people daily, in lots of places. I guess they don’t matter if they don’t have resources to exploit or geo-political importance.

 

[justjess]

He won the vote. The opposition boycotted the vote but that is there own fault. He won. You can’t boycot and then declare an election invalid and announce yourself the winner. That doesn’t even make sense.

The country is clearly in an economic crisis but I can’t see how being INVADED by a foreign power is going to help that. It is a perfectly made us target though - socialist and rich with oil - like the Cold War and the Middle East crisis had a baby.

On our end you can’t shout from the rooftops “AMERICA FIRST” denounce nato and say we shouldn’t be the world police (which is true) and then invade another country on flimsy pretense.

We are not the world police. We are not the world police. We are not the world police.

Further how the heck is placing economic sanctions on a country in economic turmoil ethical? How does it make sense? How can we pretend concern for the conditions the people are living in on one hand while making the economic situation worse on the other?

Venezuela needs to figure out Venezuela’s problems itself. If we are really so concerned we will send aid, end sanctions, and offer temporary asylum until they do.

 

[The Zone]

Okay colonel. Why don't you ask people from that country what they want and know that they have shut off information to their citizens per someone who is getting their brother out. I agree with not wanting to be world police. But this is not Trump, this is the system in place long before him which is why I am tickled everyone says Trump first instead of the establishmewarheadsads.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Okay colonel. Why don't you ask people from that country what they want and know that they have shut off information to their citizens per someone who is getting their brother out

Maduro won the vote. Pro Maduro rallies have been bigger than the coup supporters. The Venezuelans pushing this are largely ex-pats.

 

[justjess]

Okay colonel. Why don't you ask people from that country what they want and know that they have shut off information to their citizens per someone who is getting their brother out. I agree with not wanting to be world police. But this is not Trump, this is the system in place long before him which is why I am tickled everyone says Trump first instead of the establishmewarheadsads.

Trump campaigned on AMERICA FIRST and pulling back on foreign interventions. He is going against his own messaging.

I’m not blaming him only, however as president he does share a big portion of whatever blame is assigned.

 

[justjess]

Also whether or not some Venezuelans want us to invade has no bearing on whether or not we should invade. There are plenty of countries in crisis where we could potentially step in and do good, but we don’t. We don’t because we have no other interests there.. opening Venezuela’s oil reserves back up to foreign entities is a pretty damn big incentive man. Introducing rampant capitalism to benefit our own corporations is also a pretty damn big incentive. The have little to no imports right now.. who do you think would benefit most from those markets opening? The Venezuelan people or foreign owned mega corporations?

Has anyone even researched this guy our country is backing?

 

[The Zone]

You asked for a link, I gave you one. Refute it if you will. So, the country has shut down contact to the outside world for its citizens.

Trump campaigned on AMERICA FIRST and pulling back on foreign interventions. He is going against his own messaging.

I’m not blaming him only, however as president he does share a big portion of whatever blame is assigned.

Well, you do realize other countries want to intervene? If it is humanitarian, it complicates things. So, we are okay with none for sure (no sure thing hypo) that we will let more people starve. As was said aid is intercepted and some will not send aid with the current regime, Also, a lot of people saying things as being accurate when the picture is quite muddy, I am taking the word of my pals wife that everyone save elderly and some others want to get out and they are trying to do so now.

 

[justjess]

As far as I know there are no other countries threatening invasion. Yes, there are other countries backing the opposition self declared president. But I haven’t seen anyone else saying they would take military action to insert him. And just the idea of inserting someone through outside military force gives me anxiety.. we don’t have a good track record with that.

I do not believe for a second this is purely humanitarian. There are a million valid and worthy humanitarian efforts we do not get involved in. We turn away starving children from our borders everyday. We blow up other starving children. We have starving American citizens we do nothing for... all of a sudden we are this benevolent humanitarian angel force? I don’t buy it. The humanitarian aspect is just a useful justification to get people on board with a military operation meant primarily to benefit our “shadow government” aka the elite and corporations who will benefit from this financially.

There are other options.. lift sanctions, grant asylum and facilitate the evacuation of people seeking it. I’m sure even that would cost way less then aggressive military action on the ground would.

 

[justjess]

So.. hes an engineer who went to George Washington university for a graduate program in public administration.. in America, actually in Washington DC. Why does a Venezuelan engineer need a masters degree in public administration from a highly politicized American university?

Also.. He’s promised a couple of countries benefits to their businesses if they pledge him their support in this debacle. So clearly installing him will mean converting a socialist country to a capitalist one.

I just find the timing of this new socialist enemy a little suspect as well considering the next election cycle is coming quickly and many of the policies democrats are pushing have been billed and demonized as socialist in the media.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/02/01/sanctions-of-mass-destruction-americas-war-on-venezuela/

“Over the past five years, American sanctions have cut Venezuela off from most financial markets, which have caused local oil production to plummet. Consequently, Venezuela has experienced the largest decline in living standards of any country in recorded Latin American history.”

“Prior to American sanctions, socialism in Venezuela had reduced inequality and poverty whilst pensions expanded. During the same time period in America, it has been the absolute reverse. President Chavez funnelled Venezuela’s oil revenues into social spending such as free+6 healthcare, education, subsidized food networks, and housing construction.”

 

[Colonel Valerio]

I just find the timing of this new socialist enemy a little suspect as well considering the next election cycle is coming quickly and many of the policies democrats are pushing have been billed and demonized as socialist in the media.

Yeah I hadn’t thought about that, but by putting Venezuela in the news as a “failed socialist state” could be very effective with easily manipulated American public . Something has to happen if Trump wants to win re-election.

 

[justjess]

Pence supposedly promised America’s full support to Guaidó the day before he declared himself president.. I’m wondering what exactly pences ties are to the oil industry as I haven’t researched it much and just a cursory examination shows ties to Forrest Lucas (founder of Lucas oil) and the Koch brothers

I’m sure someone better versed in this sort of research could find plenty more..

 

[Karlysymon]

So.. hes an engineer who went to George Washington university for a graduate program in public administration.. in America, actually in Washington DC. Why does a Venezuelan engineer need a masters degree in public administration from a highly politicized American university?

Also.. He’s promised a couple of countries benefits to their businesses if they pledge him their support in this debacle. So clearly installing him will mean converting a socialist country to a capitalist one.

I just find the timing of this new socialist enemy a little suspect as well considering the next election cycle is coming quickly and many of the policies democrats are pushing have been billed and demonized as socialist in the media.

He's walked the halls of NED just like countless other 'leaders' of uprisings around the world. So he's not exactly a free agent. I don't think Maduro is popular because of the economy so its a hard pick between those.
@z gharib originally posted this video here

And to the best of my recollection, USAID offices in Venezuela were shuttered precisely for regime change activities.