Once Saved Always Saved?

[phipps]

What about Hebrews 6:4-6

Let’s take a fresh look at the verse in question; “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame”.

Depending on how you look at it, this could certainly be a very difficult and very scary passage for anyone to read.

But first, I think this verse is reminding us of the sobering truth that it is possible for enlightened believers — those who have received the Holy Spirit — to fall away from their faith. For instance, Balaam was a Spirit-filled prophet of God who eventually sold out for money. “They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam … who loved the wages of unrighteousness” (2 Peter 2:15).

We also learn in the first book of Samuel that King Saul was filled with the Spirit too, but he grieved it away through stubborn pride and rebellion until “the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets” (1 Samuel 28:6).

So the next big question is: When a real believer falls away, is it hopeless? Or can they return to the fold? We might simply answer this question by looking at the many case studies found in the Bible — regarding great men of faith like Jacob, Samson, David, Solomon, and Peter. Each of these souls listened to the devil for a time, but then they repented and returned to God to do wonderful things.

We also find a quick answer in Ezekiel 18:21: “If a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die”.

Can a backslider repent and return to God for forgiveness and acceptance? We have just read a resounding yes! There are too many other verses we could cite in support of this, but here are just a few more: Jeremiah 3:22 promises, “Return, you backsliding children, And I will heal your backslidings”. Hosea 6:1, 2 adds, “Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight”.

So what about Hebrews 6:4? We need to remember that this book is written to the Jewish nation, who had just been exposed to the wonderful truth that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah. If they rejected the clear evidence of the Word and Holy Spirit regarding this precious truth, there was nothing more that God could do to convince them. This is what Jesus referred to when He said, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead” (Luke 16:31). In other words, if we reject Jesus and the Holy Spirit after knowing them, we are turning away from the best that God has to offer us. There is nothing better He can send to convince us to follow His Word.

This truth is borne out more fully a little later in Hebrews: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26, 27). God cannot save us from continuing in wilful sin and rejection of the Holy Spirit.

But when a backslider repents of his sins, will God simply reject him? Or can he still be saved? The straight answer is yes. Always remember the prideful prodigal son, who went to live with the world for a time. The Lord humbled him, and he returned to his father’s house.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/news/item/id/10888/t/what-about-hebrews-6-4-6

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What about Hebrews 6 4-6

Good exposition here...*

*Not what some people make if it, but the wider context really helps.

 

[TokiEl]

What about Hebrews 6:4-6 ?

God might be too great and the light too bright... so not everyone can cope with God.

It's just too much... for impure hearts.

 

[Douglas Summers]

A sinning saint ?

Have you lost your marbles.

There is no such thing as an unrepentant sinner saint... just as there are no holy whores dawg.

If we say we do not sin we make God out to be a liar! (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1-2)

 

[TokiEl]

If we say we do not sin we make God out to be a liar! (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1-2)

Silence is golden Summers.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Silence is golden Summers.

I could not find that in Scripture TokiEI, You do not understand the nature of a saved man......God gave us a new man.....He never changed the old man. And they are in conflict with each other that we do not always do what we should.(Gal. 5:16-26) But the sinning saint has Christ as His Mercy Seat between us and God. Read the Scriptures in the last post to you and try to understand them.

 

[TokiEl]

I could not find that in Scripture TokiEI, You do not understand the nature of a saved man......God gave us a new man.....He never changed the old man. And they are in conflict with each other that we do not always do what we should.(Gal. 5:16-26) But the sinning saint has Christ as His Mercy Seat between us and God. Read the Scriptures in the last post to you and try to understand them.

There is no such thing as a sinning saint as there are no such thing as holy whores.

If you are not willing to stop sinning... you are not saved at all. You are just fooling yourself... and others.

You are playing with hellfire.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Predestination

Unconditional election (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) teaches that before the world was created, God predestinated some people to be saved (the elect) and the rest to continue in their sins and, therefore, be damned, consigned to the eternally burning fires of hell. Human choice, it asserts, plays no role in salvation. A key passage used to support this view is found in the apostle Paul’s writings—

Whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:29, 30).​

Certainly, Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place.

Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.

Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, “Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17, emphasis added).

The Contemporary English Version Bible translates Romans 8:29 more precisely, stating that God “has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.” While everyone is called to salvation, not everyone responds. But to those who choose to come to Christ, these are transformed into His likeness.

One reason Calvin argued in favour of predestination was to make sure God receives all the glory. He believed that if you have any part to play in your salvation—even your own choice to accept Jesus—then you would deserve some credit. Therefore, he concluded, you really do not have a choice. God’s sovereignty, he taught, does not permit human free will.

It’s an interesting theory, but it is not biblical.

I like to think of God’s foreknowledge as something like a helicopter pilot flying above a mountain with a one-way tunnel dug through it. Since the mountain is composed of solid granite, the engineers decided to blast only one lane through the rock, placing a stop light at either end so that vehicles would take turns going through the narrow tunnel. But on a particular day, one of the stop lights was broken.

When the pilot looked down, he first saw a big eighteen-wheeler entering one end at sixty miles per hour. Then he noticed a little red sports car zipping into the tunnel from the other end. The helicopter pilot knew what was about to happen; however, his knowledge did not make the inevitable accident occur; he simply had foreknowledge of a coming collision because of his perspective.

God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether you are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away your free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of humanity shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/inside-report/magazine/id/14710/t/once-saved--always-saved-

I believe in eternal security, but I do not believe in Calvinism.

God does NOT intrude on our freewill. It IS His Will that every man believes on Christ and be saved.

Most will not, but that is their choice, not one that God predestined.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

There is no such thing as a sinning saint as there are no such thing as holy whores.

If you are not willing to stop sinning... you are not saved at all. You are just fooling yourself... and others.

You are playing with hellfire.

So after you got saved, you NEVER committed sin?

 

[TokiEl]

So after you got saved, you NEVER committed sin?

Refusing to give up sins and instead excusing sins... is not the Way.

Is that hard to understand ?

Are you so invested in sins that you can't even understand that you ought to give up sins ?

 

[phipps]

So after you got saved, you NEVER committed sin?

Of course after I got saved I sinned many times. The issue is not about sinning day in and day out.

There are two types of backsliding in the Bible. The first one is not really backsliding but the Bible uses the word backsliding to define it. It's when someone's heart was never converted. Someone wrote, "It is true there might be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ." Everything about those people seems as though they are converted but they have no real connection with God. Those people need to convert and turn to Christ. What many of you are saying is that this is the only reason people are not saved because they were never converted in the first place, but that is not biblical as I'm going to explain using examples from the Bible.

The other backsliding is when one was saved, converted truly in their heart. Its when over a period of time they stop doing the will of God. They stop connecting with Him for various reasons. It starts in the heart and then later we see the results of that backsliding with actions. David is a good example of that. David was a man of God. He had killed Goliath and He was anointed by God to be Israel's king. He was a brilliant and wise man. However he backslid from the will of the Lord. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it was the power and wealth that clouded his thinking when he decided it was time for a new wife, a wife that already belonged to another man. He sinned big time. He had the man killed so he could have his wife. Only someone who was backslid could do something like that. It didn't just happen overnight. David had to be re-converted. Btw real conversion and repentance are very similar. When Nathan confronted David as the one who killed Uriah, David's conscious wrenched his heart. He fell on his face and prayed for seven days. What did he pray about? The baby that he and Bathsheba had made together was terminally sick. He didn't want to see that innocent baby die for his sin. It broke his heart. David wrote, "Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit" (Psalm 51:12). David wrote a lot more about salvation because He knew what it means to lose it. Had David not re-converted and repented He would have been lost forever.

The same goes for Solomon, David's son. He was converted, he was anointed by God. Solomon loved God. In Kings 3:3 it says, "Solomon showed his love for the Lord, by walking according to the statutes of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places." He obeyed the Lord. When he prayed (read Kings 3), Solomon prayed for an understanding heart. In 2 Chronicles 1:7 it says, "In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee." verses 10, "Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?" God gives Solomon what he asked for from the heart. He did not ask "for riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life" Verse 11. He is blessed with wealth and he builds the temple. However later on Solomon backslid. He started disobeying God. He had so many wives and concubines even though God had said don't multiply wives. God had also told the Jews not to inter-marry with women from other nations. He disobeyed God in so many other ways for many years. He turned his heart away from God that he started worshipping other gods that his many wives and concubines introduced to him. Solomon came back to the Lord in his old age, repented and re-converted. The book of Ecclesiastes is something of a review of Solomon's pursuit of what really matters in life. The last few verses at the end of Ecclesiastes say, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil." Had Solomon not come back to the Lord, He would be lost forever.

I gave an example of king Saul in my previous posts. He was a saved man that God anointed too. He prophesied in God's name. He disobeyed God and God cut communication with him. In the end Saul ended up committing suicide. He never repented or re-converted. There is no such thing in the Bible as once saved always saved. We have to maintain our conversion. We have to have a continued relationship with God to be saved. We have to obey His commandments. We cannot go off and do anything we want just because we are saved and think we will always be saved. Someone once wrote, "When I was converted I made the mistake of thinking that the battle was already mine. The victory was won. The crown was in my grasp. I thought old things had passed away. All things had become new and my old corrupt nature, the old life was gone. But I found out after serving Christ for a few months that conversion was only like enlisting in the army. There was battle on hand." As long as the devil is still in this world, everyday is a battle. He will do anything to bring us down so we can lose eternal life. We can be serving the Lord and our motives can slowly change. Just like all three examples above. Conversion is something that can unravel. Therefore, it is something that must be maintained. It is our choice. Jesus wants to save us all but we have to be willing to let Him in, we have to cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit to receive that change of heart. When we do that, the Bible is full of promises of what God will do for us. But we have a part to play - we must surrender our will.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Refusing to give up sins and instead excusing sins... is not the Way.

Is that hard to understand ?

Are you so invested in sins that you can't even understand that you ought to give up sins ?

It is a yes or no answer, Toki.

Did you commit any sin after you got saved?

Yes or no?

Of course after I got saved I sinned many times. The issue is not about sinning day in and day out.

There are two types of backsliding in the Bible. The first one is not really backsliding but the Bible uses the word backsliding to define it. It's when someone's heart was never converted. Someone wrote, "It is true there might be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ." Everything about those people seems as though they are converted but they have no real connection with God. Those people need to convert and turn to Christ. What many of you are saying is that this is the only reason people are not saved because they were never converted in the first place, but that is not biblical as I'm going to explain using examples from the Bible.

The other backsliding is when one was saved, converted truly in their heart. Its when over a period of time they stop doing the will of God. They stop connecting with Him for various reasons. It starts in the heart and then later we see the results of that backsliding with actions. David is a good example of that. David was a man of God. He had killed Goliath and He was anointed by God to be Israel's king. He was a brilliant and wise man. However he backslid from the will of the Lord. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it was the power and wealth that clouded his thinking when he decided it was time for a new wife, a wife that already belonged to another man. He sinned big time. He had the man killed so he could have his wife. Only someone who was backslid could do something like that. It didn't just happen overnight. David had to be re-converted. Btw real conversion and repentance are very similar. When Nathan confronted David as the one who killed Uriah, David's conscious wrenched his heart. He fell on his face and prayed for seven days. What did he pray about? The baby that he and Bathsheba had made together was terminally sick. He didn't want to see that innocent baby die for his sin. It broke his heart. David wrote, "Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit" (Psalm 51:12). David wrote a lot more about salvation because He knew what it means to lose it. Had David not re-converted and repented He would have been lost forever.

The same goes for Solomon, David's son. He was converted, he was anointed by God. Solomon loved God. In Kings 3:3 it says, "Solomon showed his love for the Lord, by walking according to the statutes of his father David, except that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places." He obeyed the Lord. When he prayed (read Kings 3), Solomon prayed for an understanding heart. In 2 Chronicles 1:7 it says, "In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee." verses 10, "Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?" God gives Solomon what he asked for from the heart. He did not ask "for riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life" Verse 11. He is blessed with wealth and he builds the temple. However later on Solomon backslid. He started disobeying God. He had so many wives and concubines even though God had said don't multiply wives. God had also told the Jews not to inter-marry with women from other nations. He disobeyed God in so many other ways for many years. He turned his heart away from God that he started worshipping other gods that his many wives and concubines introduced to him. Solomon came back to the Lord in his old age, repented and re-converted. The book of Ecclesiastes is something of a review of Solomon's pursuit of what really matters in life. The last few verses at the end of Ecclesiastes say, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil." Had Solomon not come back to the Lord, He would be lost forever.

I gave an example of king Saul in my previous posts. He was a saved man that God anointed too. He prophesied in God's name. He disobeyed God and God cut communication with him. In the end Saul ended up committing suicide. He never repented or re-converted. There is no such thing in the Bible as once saved always saved. We have to maintain our conversion. We have to have a continued relationship with God to be saved. We have to obey His commandments. We cannot go off and do anything we want just because we are saved and think we will always be saved. Someone once wrote, "When I was converted I made the mistake of thinking that the battle was already mine. The victory was won. The crown was in my grasp. I thought old things had passed away. All things had become new and my old corrupt nature, the old life was gone. But I found out after serving Christ for a few months that conversion was only like enlisting in the army. There was battle on hand." As long as the devil is still in this world, everyday is a battle. He will do anything to bring us down so we can lose eternal life. We can be serving the Lord and our motives can slowly change. Just like all three examples above. Conversion is something that can unravel. Therefore, it is something that must be maintained. It is our choice. Jesus wants to save us all but we have to be willing to let Him in, we have to cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit to receive that change of heart. When we do that, the Bible is full of promises of what God will do for us. But we have a part to play - we must surrender our will.

That sounds like “Lordship Salvation”, which is unbiblical.

You are still clinging to the notion that salvation is by works.

It’s not. It is grace.

There is nothing we can DO to earn our salvation. If we have been genuinely saved, there is nothing we can do to lose it either.

That’s all once saved always saved means....the minute we are saved/born again by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus Christ.

If He “took it away” due to backsliding, that would make God a liar, and we know that God CANNOT lie.

 

[TokiEl]

It is a yes or no answer, Toki.

Did you commit any sin after you got saved?

Yes or no?

First the question doesn't fit and second it doesn't fit for you to ask and third it doesn't fit for me to answer.

It's like asking...

Did you commit any faults after you won the game ?

What ?

 

[TokiEl]

You are still clinging to the notion that salvation is by works.

It’s not. It is grace.

Salvation is as you said possible because of the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins.

No amount of work can accomplish this.


So does this mean that we do not work ? No of course not.

Faith without works is dead.


But we can disregard the Ten Commandments right ? No again.

If you love Me obey My commandments.


This is true Christendom.

 

[phipps]

It is a yes or no answer, Toki.

Did you commit any sin after you got saved?

Yes or no?



That sounds like “Lordship Salvation”, which is unbiblical.

You are still clinging to the notion that salvation is by works.

It’s not. It is grace.

There is nothing we can DO to earn our salvation. If we have been genuinely saved, there is nothing we can do to lose it either.

That’s all once saved always saved means....the minute we are saved/born again by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus Christ.

If He “took it away” due to backsliding, that would make God a liar, and we know that God CANNOT lie.

I don't believe in salvation by works because the Bible is clear on that subject. I believe in salvation by Grace. I don't deserve grace. It's not something we earn. There is nothing I can do to save myself. Not even obeying God's law. However, my obedience to God proves my faithfulnesses to Him. The Bible ties obedience to a genuine love for God.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10.

1 John 1:7: "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

1 John 2:3, “Now by this we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He who says I know Him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. But whoever keeps his word, truly, the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who he says he abides in the Lord ought to walk as He walked.”

1 John 2:24: "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

These verses are not only for the unsaved, they are for all us, saved and unsaved. If the doctrine of eternal security were from Christ, would He have given such a warning? If eternal security were a fact, then wouldn’t Christ simply write in indelible ink the names of everyone who ever accepted His salvation? Why would He need to warn them that He might “blot out” their names from the book of life? As long we have freedom of choice, we can change our minds, saved or not. Jesus promises us what he'll do for us when we are saved and walk in His light daily, "As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him” (Colossians 2:6), and yes we are redeemed by His blood, but if we surrender and accept His gift of Salvation. When we come to Christ and He begins to transform us, as long as we are surrendered to His will. If we stop, God can't continue His work in us. 1 John 2:4. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” To know Christ is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him. Are all saved people doing this?

1 Corinthians 2, “By which you were also saved if you hold fast to that word that I preach to you and lest you believe in vain.” He says you are saved if you hold fast. We must choose to hang on. There is no other other way to be saved than to overcome like Jesus did. If we don't hang on and/or change our minds, we will not be saved. Our names will be blotted out of the book of life. It will be the choice of the individual.

I posted this in "Who changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday" forum. I will repost here too.

"Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word—under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man’s case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ’s saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reinforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian."

"The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition, but the devious reasoning of those who try to avoid obedience makes it necessary to press this point a bit further. Have you ever been stopped by a policeman for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the police-man as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up. Then he says, “All right, I’m going to pardon you this time, but …” Now what do you think he means by that word “but”? Surely he means, “but I don’t want to ever catch you speeding again.” Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again. Why, then, should any true Christian try to rationalize his way out of obeying the law of God? “If ye love me,” Jesus said, “keep my commandments” (John 14:15)."

The grace of God: cannot be saved by works, we're saved by grace. But if we are saved by grace, it will be seen in the heart and in the life. There'll be a holiness. It'll operate in the way that we treat others and in the way that we follow and obey God. Being saved is conditional, we have to obey God, surrender and live by His will or we'll be lost. No one is going to heaven who is disobedient to God's will, saved or unsaved. This is biblical teaching.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Salvation is as you said possible because of the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins.

No amount of work can accomplish this.


So does this mean that we do not work ? No of course not.

Faith without works is dead.


But we can disregard the Ten Commandments right ? No again.

If you love Me obey My commandments.


This is true Christendom.

While I do not disagree with this statement, I want to clarify so there are no misunderstandings.

The difference i am pointing out is that salvation occurs in an instant. The very minute a person believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ & calls on the Lord to save them, that salvation is assured.

That salvation is what seals their soul permanently and is why they will go to Heaven and they are eternally secure from that point forward.

If that person chooses to never do anything for God after salvation, they have wasted the remainder of their life, BUT they will STILL go to Heaven upon death.

They won’t have any rewards once they get there, but they will not go to Hell.

Think of the thieves crucified alongside Christ. One went to Hell, the other went to Heaven.

NEITHER of them did a single good thing in the eyes of the Lord.
Why did one go to Heaven? Because He BELIEVED the Gospel of Jesus Christ and asked Him to save him.

That thief is in Heaven to this day, and the other is stilll burning in Hell.

Salvation is not about us, our obedience or our walk with God. It is not indicated by how well we live a Christian life.

Salvation is based on what JESUS DID to save us. It is not about how much we love God or how much we obey Him. We are not saved by how much we love God. We are saved because of how much He loves us, and whether we believe He did what He said He did to purchase our soul from Hell.

 

[TokiEl]

While I do not disagree with this statement, I want to clarify so there are no misunderstandings.

The difference i am pointing out is that salvation occurs in an instant. The very minute a person believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ & calls on the Lord to save them, that salvation is assured.

That salvation is what seals their soul permanently and is why they will go to Heaven and they are eternally secure from that point forward.

Someone said work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Is this the right mindset ?

Or i got the Jesus shot which immunizes me against sins so i'm saved.

No matter what.

I am a future angel already... look i got the shot... once.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling doesn't sound like a one time shot of Jesus.

If that person chooses to never do anything for God after salvation, they have wasted the remainder of their life, BUT they will STILL go to Heaven upon death.

They won’t have any rewards once they get there, but they will not go to Hell.

O so if not good boy or girl only milk and no cookies ?

Think of the thieves crucified alongside Christ. One went to Hell, the other went to Heaven.

NEITHER of them did a single good thing in the eyes of the Lord.
Why did one go to Heaven? Because He BELIEVED the Gospel of Jesus Christ and asked Him to save him.

That thief is in Heaven to this day, and the other is stilll burning in Hell.

Would it not be unfair in that situation if the Lord wanted him to do a good work... as he was kinda tied up ?


What the thief did ... repent and confess... that's what he did.

He repented and confessed.

He was truly sorry !


That is the kind of man and mindset that melts the heart of God.

 

[phipps]

People who believe in eternal security believe their Salvation is not connected with obedience, or advancing spiritual growth. Its focussed on a past moment when they made a decision for Christ. Whether they obey or disobey any subsequent revelation of truth, it has no influence whatsoever on their final destiny. They could break the fourth commandment, the seventh commandment, or all of them, and still feel eternally secure in the promise they had claimed "when they were saved." These people believe that their disobedience might affect the joy and peace of their relationship, but never the assurance of ultimate salvation.

Does salvation consist of one grand, holy moment of decision, or must we continue in the saving grace of Christ after that decision?

Nowhere in the Bible is entrance into God's kingdom tied to a momentary - or even temporary - faith experience of the past. Salvation is a dynamic, growing relationship with the only One who has eternal life to bestow. It requires continuing contact in order to receive it. The very life of God can be shared with men but NEVER APART FROM A LIVING UNION WITH CHRIST! "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

Just as the constant creative energy of God is necessary to sustain the universe and to hold atoms together, so His divine power is constantly needed to maintain spiritual life in the soul. When a person wilfully chooses to separate from God, the contact is broken, and the spiritual life ceases to flow. God will not violate the will of anyone in making that choice either. For proof that Christians can lose their connection with Jesus and be lost, read John 15:1-6. There Christ explains one of the great mysteries of eternal life. "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Verses 5, 6.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Someone said work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Is this the right mindset ?

Or i got the Jesus shot which immunizes me against sins so i'm saved.

No matter what.

I am a future angel already... look i got the shot... once.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling doesn't sound like a one time shot of Jesus.





O so if not good boy or girl only milk and no cookies ?





Would it not be unfair in that situation if the Lord wanted him to do a good work... as he was kinda tied up ?


What the thief did ... repent and confess... that's what he did.

He repented and confessed.

He was truly sorry !


That is the kind of man and mindset that melts the heart of God.

I am happy to dialogue with you further, Toki.......I only ask that you please answer the question I have asked you thrice already, and now for the fourth time:

After you got saved, did you commit sin??

YES

or

NO

 

[Daciple]

I don't believe in salvation by works because the Bible is clear on that subject. I believe in salvation by Grace. I don't deserve grace. It's not something we earn.

I have read all of your posts on this subject and it seems that your statement here and then everything that follows are in contradiction. You say that Salvation comes by Grace, we dont deserve or had to work to earn it, then you begin to write an essay on how we need to WORK to keep our Salvation.

If we did nothing to earn it then there is nothing we can do to keep it, or else its not by Grace but Works.

I really wish you would speak your own mind and your own thoughts instead of constantly copy and pasting everything from that site, no one wanting to have conversations with those people who write those articles, we want to have conversations with Phipps not Walter...

With that said your copypasta concerning Hebrews 6 doesnt actually address the issue, it skirts around it. It brings up a lot of the Saints that fell away and then Repented, however what you nor that article is addressing is did these people LOSE THEIR SALVATION. Thats the crux of the matter, no one disagrees that we can backslide, fall away, ect then Repent. The matter is, when someone backslides or whatever term it is that you want to stick in here, have they actually LOST THEIR SALVATION.

Would you say David LOST his Salvation and then earned it back?

Samson LOST his Salvation and then earned it back?

Elijah LOST his Salvation and then earned it back?

Peter LOST his Salvation and then earned it back?

THAT is the actual question, one which you nor your articles seem willing to have a conversation about, would you say that YOU have actually Lost your Salvation and then earned or got it back? If so how did that go?

When I quoted that verse it was specifically to show one thing, IF you lost your Salvation then you CAN NOT get it back. This has zero to do with backsliding or falling away, it is about ONE thing, LOSING Salvation.

Since we know with zero doubts that no one can LOSE Salvation and then get it back, we know that none of the people in your article qualify as LOSING their Salvation because all of them Repented and are part of the Hall of Faith. NONE of them LOST Salvation, their Salvation was still secure even when they were embroiled in Sin and David for instance was in the midst of Adultery and Murder. If he did NOT lose his Salvation while committing Adultery and Murder then what Sin is it that YOU, not Walter or someone else, believe can cause you to actually LOSE your Salvation?

Lets actually speak about LOSING Salvation, not backsliding or losing Faith for a time, I am talking about actually LOSING Salvation.

When do we lose it?

What qualifies as losing it?

Why are we responsible to KEEP Salvation, when Salvation is directly given to us by Faith thru Grace and the FINISHED Work of Christ?

If our Salvation is only dependent upon Christ then at what point does it become OUR Responsibility to keep Salvation?

I can tell you my personal testimony, I have struggled with Sin, I have had times after my mother passed away that I turned from Christ in the fact that I was angry and hurt, I didnt understand, I turned into the World to try and dull the pain which of course isnt right. However thru all of this, I never lost Faith in the fact that Christ died on the Cross for my Sins, that Salvation comes from Him and Him alone. I never could have denied ANYTHING concerning Jesus and His Work ect.

If one could have LOST their Salvation then I was the candidate, I was entrenched in the World and purposefully refused to go to God cuz I was so hurt and mad, but the question is did I LOSE my Salvation because of where I was in Faith in and in Sin?

No Sir I didnt lose my Salvation, I still had the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, He was constantly convicting me of my Sin, constantly trying to drag me to Repentance and back to Christ. IF I had Lost my Salvation then the Holy Spirit would have left me, and I would have never been getting Convicted in my Sin, and NEVER would have had that constant desire to Repent and cry out to God.

Eventually I couldnt take it any longer, and I fell to my knees cried out to God and He moved in a miraculous way, restoring my Relationship with Him, bringing me to a Gospel Preaching Church, where I saw my Wife, my Daughter, my Niece and my Brother In Law all get saved!

God didnt take my Salvation from me because I veered off and was struggling, instead He walked with me even when I felt at my most alone, He guided me and protected me even when I tried to run away from Him, He loved me at my worst, just like He did when He went to the Cross for me.

It is a horrible thing to teach that people can lose their Salvation, first off it is not supported by the Bible, it makes Jesus and God into a liar:

Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I could quote hundreds more but this is sufficient to prove that Jesus and God state that they will never leave nor forsake us and will be with us until the end of the World. Getting Salvation isnt earned by our performance, and keeping Salvation isnt earned by our performance, it is all by Faith.

Now your contention with Eternal Salvation that I have noticed is the idea of Free Will, that men must have the Free Will to walk away and thus why I keep trying to get you to move a bit away from Walter and try looking at the idea of Molinism, which accounts for mens Free Will. In simple terms, when someone is truly Born Again and truly receives Salvation, when they truly taste the goodness of God, while they still have the Free Will to walk away from Christ, they never actually will or do.

Just as in my personal testimony, I was saved, I walked or tried to walk away from God, He still followed me, and after the Holy Spirit kept up His job of convicting me, I finally Repented and came back. No matter how far I have ever been from God, I could never deny Him and have always felt the Holy Spirit moving to bring me back to Him.

You cant lose your Salvation Phipps, if so tell me where that line is, and if you continue to preach that people can lose their Salvation then please stop lying to Christians and tell them that once they have lost their Salvation they can come back, they can not..