Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[JoChris]

I don't mind anyone expressing any kind of beliefs, especially when I understand them very well. What I have issue with is people being aggressive and insulting ad hominem. It's disrespectful and immoral. People get angry and turn to personal attacks.

You can disagree with an opinion and share your own, all the while remaining loving and respectful. This is not the case here.

Well, that proves my point about the true nature of Christianity better than any of my arguments.

P.S. I've never said I'm a shaman. Never was and probably never will be. It's a rare gift. I'm a Shamanist. It's a type of faith. Not a good term, a look through Westerner eyes, in my language we don't use it. A shaman would never spend their time on a discussion board. They're living a special kind of life out there. Helping lots of people with real problems, btw.

I was brought up in the last generation to have old-school Catholic nuns as teachers. Your guilt trips are amateurish in comparison. Therefore the "real Christians never say things that could hurt people's widdle ol' feewings***" tactics don't work on me.

How about you use reasoning and logic and keep on topic instead?

***Edit: ....and therefore YOU are to blame for me choosing to reject Jesus... not ME..."

 

[grateful servant]

This thread brings to mind these words: #129

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Bacsi

You said:

"You excluded the word honest. It's the key. As long as we strive to be intellectually honest, we can get somewhere."

Just as an aside here, I didn't exclude honesty, I assumed it. As my high school teacher was fond of saying, "If you cheat, your only cheating yourself".

I believe in having a "reasonable faith" - for me this has always meant that I give the Bible the benefit of the doubt on a question I might have, then be prepared to pray, read and research a topic to see if the facts support or undermine that faith. I have never had so much cause to do this as on this forum, or found answers so rewarding.

Far from "wearing down the saints" I think that engaging with tough questions and opposition has built my faith more than anything in recent years, for which I am genuinely grateful to my various spiritual sparring partners.

 

[elsbet]

For the most part, I think @Bacsi is spot on.

I think it is the sweeping generalizations that have carried over from other threads, that are being viewed as OT (e.g. the muslims are great and Christians suck bait thread).*

*Edit: paraphrased, of course.

 

[Bacsi]

God-man sacrifice of Jesus

It's human sacrifice. There's nothing wrong to say the way it is. Jesus is human, he is called sacrifice. There you go.

The Bible never calls Jesus God. A couple verses that seem to say so, have been proven to be later edits. History clearly tells us that the doctrine of the divinity of Christ was introduced two-three centuries after Jesus. Even when the doctrine was established as the official one by Constantine the Great, he chose ambiguous wording "homoousios" - "of the same essence as the Father", to try and appease both sides. Those who beleived and rejected Christ's divinity.

Even if we agree that Jesus is God manifested in flesh, it was human flesh. He didn't incarnate as a sheep or a bull. No, he came as a man. Any time they talk about Jesus, he shows human characteristics. He prays to God, he talks, he eats, he jokes, he sleeps, he cries, etc. He hurts, he's tired, he gets angry and he bleeds. He's a normal human being.

So any way you look at it, there's absolutely nothing incorrect in saying that death of Jesus in Christianity is human sacrifice.

 

[Bacsi]

muslims are great and Christians suck

There are all kinds of Muslims and Christians. Or Hindus and Buddhists. Or Zoroastrians and atheists. Etc. It's so obvious.

Islam is much, much better than Christianity. On theological and moral levels. There's a world of difference. Therefore, as the result, on average, Muslims are better than Christians. It's as evident as daylight even at this forum.

 

[Bacsi]

@Bacsi

You said:

"You excluded the word honest. It's the key. As long as we strive to be intellectually honest, we can get somewhere."

Just as an aside here, I didn't exclude honesty, I assumed it. As my high school teacher was fond of saying, "If you cheat, your only cheating yourself".

I believe in having a "reasonable faith" - for me this has always meant that I give the Bible the benefit of the doubt on a question I might have, then be prepared to pray, read and research a topic to see if the facts support or undermine that faith. I have never had so much cause to do this as on this forum, or found answers so rewarding.

Far from "wearing down the saints" I think that engaging with tough questions and opposition has built my faith more than anything in recent years, for which I am genuinely grateful to my various spiritual sparring partners.

I don't consider apologetics honest. "Apologeticos" - speaking out in one's own defense. That's why I contrasted it with an honest approach.

This is very very good what you're saying - in theory. What I see, brother, is that any time you encounter a difficult question, you're not completely honest with people and yourself.

For example, you threw the ten commandments at me as your superior morality. When I pointed out there's three slightly different versions, and you don't fulfill them in entirety and that my commandments are even better, I got silence in response from you. Evasion.

To answer a difficult question, instead of reading the source texts and using your own thinking, or at least reading good books and doing your own research, you resort to primitive online search of Christian articles that seem to answer the question. It's really a lazy man's way to do it, and nothing to do with open-minded and honest investigation.

In short, I see no independent thinking. I only see a determination to get firmer established in your beliefs. Which is absolutely normal for a religious person.

 

[JoChris]

I think it is the sweeping generalizations that have carried over from other threads, that are being viewed as OT (e.g. the muslims are great and Christians suck bait thread).*

*Edit: paraphrased, of course.

Bullseye. 100+.
I have seen the same (in their eyes purely objective) strategy used many times by people of various faiths, including atheists and Catholics against biblical Christianity.
"It doesn't make sense to ME personally... therefore it can't be true." They don't apply the same mindset to quantum physics or complex philosophical arguments, but apparently THEY see what "stupid Christians" can't.
They have the Gentile mindset. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1:18-31&version=KJV

To a non-believer's mind it sounds stupid that a Higher Being would sacrifice His own child so we could be restored to fellowship with Him, no strings attached. It sounds illogical, irrational and unreasonable to people who think they will be able to earn a Higher Being/ beings favour by doing a rain dance, sacrificing chickens or walking a little old lady across the road.

Apparently a few good deeds and general keeping of their society's laws/ family honour spread over a lifetime will be enough for their God/ gods/ karma to overlook their lies, their pride, their fiddling of taxes, their disrespect of parents, their cheating on spouse/s etc. They refuse to admit they would do every sin they could get away with IF they knew beforehand never got found out by anybody/ paid any consequences.

I know the moral Muslims (I know some of you genuinely are, so that is NOT a snide comment) will protest that they would never do such things, that they would always seek to please their Allah. The difference between you and me is that I know my heart is genuinely evil and wicked, I know that nothing that I can do will make my past, present and future sins disappear.

I know Jesus - God made flesh - paid the penalty of my sins for me. He died in my place so I could live for Him. You Muslims do not have "the peace which passes understanding" because you can only hope you do enough good to please your Allah. You hope he will give you a pass grade. I know God does not see my sin because Jesus is my mediator, He washed my blood-stained hands and has made me whiter than snow.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I don't consider apologetics honest. "Apologeticos" - speaking out in one's own defense. That's why I contrasted it with an honest approach.

This is very very good what you're saying - in theory. What I see, brother, is that any time you encounter a difficult question, you're not completely honest with people and yourself.

For example, you threw the ten commandments at me as your superior morality. When I pointed out there's three slightly different versions, and you don't fulfill them in entirety and that my commandments are even better, I got silence in response from you. Evasion.

To answer a difficult question, instead of reading the source texts and using your own thinking, or at least reading good books and doing your own research, you resort to primitive online search of Christian articles who seem to answer the question. It's really a lazy man's way to do it, and nothing to do with open-minded and honest investigation.

In short, I see no independent thinking. I only see a determination to get firmer established in your beliefs. Which is absolutely normal for a religious person.

On the essence of what you say here, perhaps if I were to say that I reject evolution (Darwinian, Neo-Darwinian and Extraterrestrial "seeding") yet I chose to study it as part of the final year of my degree and got the highest grade for my understanding of it at uni by 20℅ over the other members of my course, you might get a better sense of what I mean by holding a reasonable faith. Truth has nothing to fear from cross examination.

@Kung Fu and @Etagloc both referred me to Bart Ehrmann and through him I researched the work of the Jesus Seminar. This led me to information that I would have never come across otherwise sparking much reading and investigation into textual criticism and prompting the following thread

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/

As to not leaping on every question immediately, and providing quick or glib answers without research, I defer to the wisdom of Treebeard in Lord of the Rings ("do not be hasty"), and to the personified Reason in The Pilgrims Regress here...

[John]: 'But I must think it is one or the other.'​

​

[Reason]: 'By my father's soul, you must not - until you have some evidence. Can you not remain in doubt?'​

​

[John]: 'I don't know that I have ever tried.'​

​

[Reason]: 'You must learn to, if you are to come far with me. It is not hard to do it. In Eschropolis, indeed, it is impossible, for the people who live there have to give an opinion once a week or once a day, or else Mr. Mammon would soon cut off their food. But out here in the country you can walk all day and all the next day with an unanswered question in your head: you need never speak until you have made up your mind.​

​

C.S. Lewis, The Pilgrim's Regress

P.s. to your question:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/are-there-20-commandments/

 

[elsbet]

Bullseye. 100+.
I have seen the same (in their eyes purely objective) strategy used many times by people of various faiths, including atheists and Catholics against biblical Christianity.
"It doesn't make sense to ME personally... therefore it can't be true." They don't apply the same mindset to quantum physics or complex philosophical arguments, but apparently THEY see what "stupid Christians" can't.
They have the Gentile mindset. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1:18-31&version=KJV

To a non-believer's mind it sounds stupid that a Higher Being would sacrifice His own child so we could be restored to fellowship with Him, no strings attached. It sounds illogical, irrational and unreasonable to people who think they will be able to earn a Higher Being/ beings favour by doing a rain dance, sacrificing chickens or walking a little old lady across the road.

Apparently a few good deeds and general keeping of their society's laws/ family honour spread over a lifetime will be enough for their God/ gods/ karma to overlook their lies, their pride, their fiddling of taxes, their disrespect of parents, their cheating on spouse/s etc. They refuse to admit they would do every sin they could get away with IF they knew beforehand never got found out by anybody/ paid any consequences.

I know the moral Muslims (I know some of you genuinely are, so that is NOT a snide comment) will protest that they would never do such things, that they would always seek to please their Allah. The difference between 112 awa 11+you and me is that I know my heart is genuinely evil and wicked, I know that nothing that I can do will make my past, present and future sins disappear.

I know Jesus - God made flesh - paid the penalty of my sins for me. He died in my place so I could live for Him. You Muslims do not have "the peace which passes understanding" because you can only hope you do enough good to please your Allah. You hope he will give you a pass grade. I know God does not see my sin because Jesus is my mediator, He washed my blood-stained hands and has made me whiter than snow.

"For God so loved the world... "
JOHN 3:16

"... that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."*
ROMANS 5:8

Indeed, He became one of us-- and as such, lived in subjection to the Father, as one of us. Wouldn't make much sense, otherwise.

Spoiler: Egyptian god Anubis weighs the Heart

Thank God that ^ is not our fate.

"... for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.
2 CORINTHIANS 2:16

It mystifies me, the determination to take the supernatural, and reduce it to something that can be stuffed into a small, humanly comprehensible box. God does not work in right angles-- that is how the archaeologists know they have stumbled upon something manmade-- right angles.

*available to anyone, anytime. ♡

 

[Haich]

There is accountability. A holy God deserved a sacrifice for sin. Jesus, fully God, fully man voluntarily gave His life for mankind's sin. https://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionary-atonement.html

So the good news is that all a human being needs to do to be saved is to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.
Not intellectually agree with message, believe in Jesus.

But that is for mankind's sin. What about a murderer or a serial killer? How are evil people held accountable for their crimes ?

Surely a just God would be fair and hold an oppressor accountable for their tyranny?

How does your book reassure the little guy, the oppresed and the poor ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But that is for mankind's sin. What about a murderer or a serial killer? How are evil people held accountable for their crimes ?

Surely a just God would be fair and hold an oppressor accountable for their tyranny?

How does your book reassure the little guy, the oppresed and the poor ?

I think your question mixes civil justice with salvation. The thief on the cross had been a bad man and had nothing to recommend him other than faith that Jesus was hanging there dying for his sin and the sins of others.

Jesus said he would be with him that day in paradise (for his faith) yet the thief still died nailed to the wood (for his crimes).

 

[Haich]

know the moral Muslims (I know some of you genuinely are, so that is NOT a snide comment) will protest that they would never do such things, that they would always seek to please their Allah. The difference between you and me is that I know my heart is genuinely evil and wicked, I know that nothing that I can do will make my past, present and future sins disappear

Says who? What's with the woe is me attitude lol. Christians believe we're too sinful to achieve righteousness hence the need for Jesus as a mediator. His sacrifice reassures you that as long as you believe, then you're good.

Muslims don't believe in just works. There are other tenants to our faith which help us grow spiritually and build a link with our creator.

Everyone is sinful I agree but we are not beyond repair. If Christianity was the truth it wouldn't be so contradictory. Everyone from prophet Adam to Jesus were preaching the message of one God and how they nations and people have to adhere to the rulings of God or face punishment. That was the pattern...then all of a sudden God scraps His plan and comes as the flesh and says ok guys I love you let's just forget everything prior and as long as you believe you will be fine.

The sound mind can't accept that claim because it is unclear, unfounded and contradicts past narratives of other prophets

 

[Haich]

I think your question mixes civil justice with salvation. The thief on the cross had been a bad man and had nothing to recommend him other than faith that Jesus was hanging there dying for his sin and the sins of others.

Jesus said he would be with him that day in paradise (for his faith) yet the thief still died nailed to the wood (for his crimes).

No confusions, just how does God deal with the evil people in this world? Is death their final punishment? And if so, how does death equate as a just punishment for say, a serial killer or tyrannical oppressor?

Where do you think Hitler is and what will happen to him ?

 

[Haich]

Sorry Red, a thief is quite petty in terms of criminal standards. Even in Islam if one repents and abstains from the evil they fell into, they are forgiven. It's all about sincerity and that can only be judged by the Creator.

I'm talking about people who die upon evil. A child rapist perhaps ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Says who? What's with the woe is me attitude lol. Christians believe we're too sinful to achieve righteousness hence the need for Jesus as a mediator. His sacrifice reassures you that as long as you believe, then you're good.

Muslims don't believe in just works. There are other tenants to our faith which help us grow spiritually and build a link with our creator.

Everyone is sinful I agree but we are not beyond repair. If Christianity was the truth it wouldn't be so contradictory. Everyone from prophet Adam to Jesus were preaching the message of one God and how they nations and people have to adhere to the rulings of God or face punishment. That was the pattern...then all of a sudden God scraps His plan and comes as the flesh and says ok guys I love you let's just forget everything prior and as long as you believe you will be fine.

The sound mind can't accept that claim because it is unclear, unfounded and contradicts past narratives of other prophets

The OT law sets out standards to follow whilst acknowledging we will fall short, hence the pattern of the sacrificial system. This system is imperfect and the real meaning of it is drawn out in Isaiah 1

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

This last part points forward to a future reconciliation between Man and God, unlike the temporary right standing offered by their efforts to keep the Law, and their offerings.

 

[Haich]

But why do we automatically fall short? Wouldn't God be more pleased with our striving and efforts to please him? We take a step forward, He takes 2 back?

You didn't answer my question about where people like Hitler, who died uponn evil go and how they are deslt with.

You're British so you know Jimmy Savile. He professed to believing in God and I believe he was a Christain, albeit not a devout one. Where would he be?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No confusions, just how does God deal with the evil people in this world? Is death their final punishment? And if so, how does death equate as a just punishment for say, a serial killer or tyrannical oppressor?

Where do you think Hitler is and what will happen to him ?

What happens when a boat sinks in the middle Atlantic? People may try to save themselves by swimming to the shore but it is too far for any of them. Sure the thirty stone guy may drown first but even the Olympic swimmer on board will eventually go down unless rescued by another vessel.

I learned this lesson painting a ceiling. After 10 years since i did it last, what I had perceived to be white was a yellowy grey when set against the fresh paint. In so many ways it reminded me of the brightness of God's righteousness when set against our own, or as the Bible puts it in Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.​

​

Even on our best days, we are like the ceiling in my example. This is not self loathing btw, just an appreciation of the gulf between Gods holiness and my own.

Another point worth noting is that i really didn't know that ceiling needed painting till I saw the contrast. Perhaps if I had a kids party where Coke splashes had discoloured it all, I might have gone to Homebase sooner and bought some paint!

Again this observation is confirmed in scripture...

1 Corinthians 1

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence.30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Haich]

I know that nothing that I can do will make my past, present and future sins disappear.

Wrong. God forgives all his followers as long as you are sincere in your repentance. If he forgave Moses for accidently killing a man and for Jonah fleeing from his people, why wouldn't he forgive you?

God doesn't have these huge standards for us because he knows we will always come up short. He has set realistic and achievable standards in the form of worship, prayer , deeds etc. Belief alone does nothing, you need to grow as person spiritually and spend time with those less fortunatue to really appreciate the blessings of God.

In Islam humility is a key component to faith. The minute we start believeing oh wow we have done so many good things, we always pray on time and remember God, Satan deludes us into reassurance. You can't ever expect to be guaranteed paradise because it's an arrogance in itself to expect God to do what you feel you''re entitled to.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But why do we automatically fall short? Wouldn't God be more pleased with our striving and efforts to please him? We take a step forward, He takes 2 back?

You didn't answer my question about where people like Hitler, who died uponn evil go and how they are deslt with.

You're British so you know Jimmy Savile. He professed to believing in God and I believe he was a Christain, albeit not a devout one. Where would he be?

I doubt Jimmy Saville or Hitler reached a point of genuine repentance, and as such will be judged before the Great White Throne.

You do raise a serious point though - how bad is too bad, and by whose standards are we measuring it? I see many conversations that throw back and forth sordid examples of wretched individuals and ask what about them?

In answer, God judges the heart. Paul describes himself as the chief of sinners, yet also understood and explained Grace better than anyone.