Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[Bacsi]

The issue you have in presenting yourself as a shaman is that we differ in our view of what entities you are in touch with. You believe they are ancestors. Christians would see them as ventriloquist demons. Btw I apologise for being so direct here.

You are someone for whom Christ died, and are another one of Gods lost kids (like we were).

In a hostage situation the challenge is to shoot the guy with the gun, not the victim with the pistol held to his head. If in trying to dislodge you from your captor we have hurt you instead please know this is not the intention of any Christian on this forum.

I don't mind anyone expressing any kind of beliefs, especially when I understand them very well. What I have issue with is people being aggressive and insulting ad hominem. It's disrespectful and immoral. People get angry and turn to personal attacks.

You can disagree with an opinion and share your own, all the while remaining loving and respectful. This is not the case here.

Well, that proves my point about the true nature of Christianity better than any of my arguments.

P.S. I've never said I'm a shaman. Never was and probably never will be. It's a rare gift. I'm a Shamanist. It's a type of faith. Not a good term, a look through Westerner eyes, in my language we don't use it. A shaman would never spend their time on a discussion board. They're living a special kind of life out there. Helping lots of people with real problems, btw.

 

[grateful servant]

Don't you mean a Jew?

No, I meant Muslim - you know, one who submits to the Will of God and believes in all of His Prophets from Adam to Jesus like @Red Sky at Morning quoted. Jews do not believe that Jesus is a prophet sent by God. Muslims do.

 

[Kung Fu]

Actually Kung Fu, you have just asked your best ever question (to me anyway).

Given (and I can't assume you share these starting points) God is both entirely just and all loving, how might He reconcile Man who has fallen and given dominion to satan?

It is true that both you and I agree that God is both entirely just and loving but the difference between you and and I, and where it ultimately leads us to clash, is our differing viewpoints on man really falling and dominion given to Satan. Your explanation and viewpoints only lead to a contradiction as I outlined before.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

Good ole Paul. Another contention that keeps us at odds. It's odd that anytime we don't agree it's usually because of Paul. If you were to take the things Jesus said and the things Muhammad(pbuh) said you find they are in fact a lot closer in their beliefs than Paul and Jesus ever were.

Perhaps He could set the bar of justice lower, or maybe the price of redemption cheaper but as satan and the "spirits that sinned" will be punished for their rebellion, they would have recourse to call God unfair.

With God justice is justice and whatever He decrees is final. There is no lower and or higher there is only God's Justice. Through an Islamic lens there really is no contradiction because every and each human individual will judged according to what he and or she did and what he and or she didn't do.

Put simply, God punishes sin with it's true penalty, yet out of love pays the price himself.

I agree God will punish sin but He will also reward you for the good that you do. The Father killed His innocent "son" to pay a price/ransom. In this scenario God is not only cruel, He killed His only "son" who did nothing wrong, but also not omnipotent seeing as He had to PAY a PRICE.

Of course, such an explanation relies on a belief in certain attributes of God, the concept of original sin, the trinity etc. This is why Chtistianity "guess so" doesn't work.

I agree. Paul is the culprit here.

 

[grateful servant]

You see, we have something in common!

Say : "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."​

 

[Bacsi]

​

Say : "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."​

And Muslim is not a follower of a religion, the term means someone who recognizes and fulfills the will of God.

 

[Bacsi]

God sets the standards for morality so none of his actions can be immoral.

True. The problem is when people take the place of God. Then holding to the notion above becomes quite dangerous.

Christian don't realize that believing something abhorrent and not willing to use reason to examine their beliefs is not just immoral, it's pure evil.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

True. The problem is when people take the place of God. Then holding to the notion above becomes quite dangerous.

Christian don't realize that believing something abhorrent and not willing to use reason to examine their beliefs is not just immoral, it's pure evil.

Come now, @Bacsi -

"not willing to use reason to examine their beliefs"

Why would I set up a thread entitled as it is and yet be unwilling to examine those beliefs.

 

[Bacsi]

The mainstream Christianity believes God is happy only with those who believe He sacrificed a man for all of their bad thoughts, words and actions. This is a very, very bad teaching not from the true God.

Such teaching is self-destructing. Christianity will eventually disappear because it's in irreconcilable conflict with the true God expressed in our hearts and because the true God works against it. There's a moral law that will make this immoral religion destroy itself. Just look at the disunity among Christians and the way Christians only operate on the path of violence and oppression throughput its history. It's a religion of the past bound to become extinct.

The only kind of Christians today, in my opinion, who are not so strong on the above wrong idea and are closer to the true God are the Orthodox.

 

[Bacsi]

Why would I set up a thread entitled as it is and yet be unwilling to examine those beliefs.

You are not representative of all. Then, are you really doing it? Or are your eyes wide shut? Since when apologetics equates to honest analysis? I was responding to a post that was so absolutely exemplary of the problem I was pointing out.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Bacsi

I do know the difference between apologetics and analysis. Apologetics acknowledges everyone has a world view. I picture it like going to the opticians and trying on glasses. To pretend you don't have a world view is foolish as everyone does,one way or another.

The interesting part in these comes in trying on each others glasses and describing what we see out of them. Sometimes a pair of fresh eyes can show us something new.

It is very easy for these things to get heated as none of us are playing for matches. Instead we are in an eternal game of high stakes poker where we bet our souls on who we trust.

 

[Bacsi]

@Bacsi

I do know the difference between apologetics and analysis. Apologetics acknowledges everyone has a world view. I picture it like going to the opticians and trying on glasses. To pretend you don't have a world view is foolish as everyone does,one way or another.

The interesting part in these comes in trying on each others glasses and describing what we see out of them. Sometimes a pair of fresh eyes can show us something new.

It is very easy for these things to get heated as none of us are playing for matches. Instead we are in an eternal game of high stakes poker where we bet our souls on who we trust.

You excluded the word honest. It's the key. As long as we strive to be intellectually honest, we can get somewhere. Ideological filters can't change our eyes and the way they see things. Water pours downwards, even if I wear glasses with pink or yellow lenses.

The difference between apologetics vs. honest investigation is whether you are willing or not willing to accept the truth even if it contradicts your convictions.

I like to watch speeches by all kinds of spiritual people - religion/phylosophy/atheism. Yesterday on Youtube I watched a sermon by a popular Christian preacher. Highly likable guy, gifted speaker, emotional and quite pantomimical as well. He really gets his message across. I can see that he has a huge desire to do what's right and to please God. No doubt about it. However, during his preaching he said a few things that didn't make sense to me logically. And him being quite honest, he kind of admitted it but still brushed them off "it'll probably happen some day". But that for me destroyed his whole message. It made it useless.

 

[elsbet]

You excluded the word honest. It's the key. As long as we strive to be intellectually honest, we can get somewhere. Ideological filters can't change our eyes and the way they see things. Water pours downwards, even if I wear glasses with pink or yellow lenses.

The difference between apologetics vs. honest investigation is whether you are willing or not willing to accept the truth even if it contradicts your convictions.

I like to watch speeches by all kinds of spiritual people, from religion/phylosophy/atheism whatever. Yesterday on Youtube I watched a sermon by a popular Christian preacher. Highly likable guy, gifted speaker, emotional and quite pantomimical as well. He really gets his message across. I can see that he has a huge desire to do what's right and to please God. No doubt about it. However, during his preaching he said a few things that didn't make sense to me logically. And him being quite honest, he kind of admitted it but still brushed them off "it'll probably happen some day". But that for me destroyed his whole message. It made it useless.

Interesting.. who was it, and what was it you had an issue with?

Can you link?

 

[Bacsi]

Interesting.. who was it, and what was it you had an issue with?

Can you link?

Francis Chan. Can' find the link now. Long sermon, and he was talking about praying with strong faith for a blind guy to get his sight back. That never happened. However he said same faith must be exercised in gospel outreach ministry. We must believe, we must believe, we must believe without a single doubt, no matter what. In something that never comes true? There were other obvious issues to his logic, though this was the biggest one as it was related to the main subject of his sermon.

BTW I find him one of the most honest ones out there among famous Christians. Still deep in deception and lies, because such is the nature of his belief system. Anyways he's trying to do the best he can even in the framework of such corrupt ideology. I give him much credit for just that. Not enough intellectual bravery and honesty to leave the false cult altogether, though...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Francis Chan. Can' find the link now. Long sermon, and he was talking about praying with strong faith for a blind guy to get his sight back. That never happened. However he said same faith must be exercised in gospel outreach ministry. We must believe, we must believe, we must believe without a single doubt, no matter what. In something that never comes true? There were other obvious issues to his logic, though this was the biggest one as it was related to the main subject of his sermon.

BTW I find him one of the most honest ones out there among famous Christians. Still deep in deception and lies, because such is the nature of his belief system. Anyways he's trying to do the best he can even in the framework of such corrupt ideology. I give him much credit for just that. Not enough intellectual bravery and honesty to leave the false cult altogether, though...

Within the Christian community there is a spectrum of belief on what "Faith" means, and how it is applied. A very interesting discussion, as Francis here seems to place a lot of faith in having a lot of faith ;-)

As far as I see it, when I pray, God may say, yes, no or wait when I ask him something. He may also call me to pray for somebody in a circumstance but the free will of others is involved so such prayers are often answered in ways you don't quite expect.

When it comes to actual answered prayers in the name of Jesus, I have seen far to many to be as "unbiased" as you would prefer me to be, and offer the encouragement to consider the implications of a recent work be Lee Strobel, "A Case for Miracles" as something to evaluate as it is drawn from real life situations and documented hard evidence.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-case-for-miracles.3437/

1 Corinthians 4:20

For the For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

The background to this audio clip is on the link I put above, but the first time I heard it, it blew me away!

 

[elsbet]

Within the Christian community there is a spectrum of belief on what "Faith" means, and how it is applied. A very interesting discussion, as Francis here seems to place a lot of faith in having a lot of faith ;-)

As far as I see it, when I pray, God may say, yes, no or wait when I ask him something. He may also call me to pray for somebody in a circumstance but the free will of others is involved so such prayers are often answered in ways you don't quite expect.

When it comes to actual answered prayers in the name of Jesus, I have seen far to many to be as "unbiased" as you would prefer me to be, and offer the encouragement to consider the implications of a recent work be Lee Strobel, "A Case for Miracles" as something to evaluate as it is drawn from real life situations and documented hard evidence.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-case-for-miracles.3437/

1 Corinthians 4:20

For the For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

The background to this audio clip is on the link I put above, but the first time I heard it, it blew me away!

Ever read God in the Dock? CS Lewis

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ever read God in the Dock? CS Lewis

No I've not! I'm listening to Perelandra by the same author at the moment, but if it's good, I'll read that next!

 

[JoChris]

So there's no accountability?

Death is a natural stage of life and isn't a form of punishment.

Don't mean to sound blunt just trying to get my head around it.

There is accountability. A holy God deserved a sacrifice for sin. Jesus, fully God, fully man voluntarily gave His life for mankind's sin. https://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionary-atonement.html

So the good news is that all a human being needs to do to be saved is to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.
Not intellectually agree with message, believe in Jesus.

 

[elsbet]

Francis Chan... thanks @Bacsi

 

[elsbet]

Francis Chan... thanks @Bacsi

He's part of the Emergent church?

I've never heard of him but is this true? Anyone?

 

[JoChris]

I understand you very well.

The thing is, the mainstream Christian theology states that Jesus was not only God, but also 100% human. In the gospels, Jesus is portrayed as a lesser being than the Father. Jesus himself says that he simply does what the Father tells him to do, and without the Father directing he doesn't do anything. Jesus doesn't know everything, only the Father does. Jesus prays to the Father and asks him to forgive people or let the fate of being sacrificed on the cross pass him. We see Jesus described as a human, being born, growing up, feeling hungry, tired, upset, sorrowful and happy at different times. He's very much a man. And he's specifically called a sacrifice, the lamb of God.

So I'm not inventing anything at all. I describe the Christian belief exactly in the terms Christianity itself is using. I only draw attention to the illogical, unjust and immoral aspect of such belief.

You're being dishonest by trying to denounce what your religion teaches. If I don't like a house being dirty, for example, you can't say it's not dirty because the siding is brown. Yes, the outside wall is brown in colour. But it doesn't change the fact the house is dirty inside! A quality you ascribe to something doesn't remove another quality also ascribed to it.

On iTablet. Responses will be shorter.
1. No, Gospels show Jesus' human nature. Submission to father in heaven does not equal inferiority or lesser deity, created being etc.

2. Immoral in your mind only. Please show Gospel passage (Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and/ orJohn) where God commanded/ Jesus did/ said anything **immoral**. (Challenging things Jesus said deserves another separate thread.)

3. I have not contradicted the bible anywhere to my knowledge. If I have, then please show chapter and surrounding verses *as well* as individual verse to show you are keeping it in context. Thanks in advance.