The Case for Miracles

Red Sky at Morning

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I really enjoyed reading, then watching "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. He went on from atheism to author a number of books, and his latest is "The Case for Miracles" (why mess with a good title!)

Anyway, I watched him interviewed on the subject and got the book on Kindle. I'm making a start reading it now, so if anyone else is reading it too, please chip in with your thoughts and impressions!

 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Well @elsbet

Check this one out!

"Duane Miller’s greatest enjoyment came from preaching at his small church and singing songs of worship. It wasn’t just his livelihood to lead a Baptist congregation in Brenham, Texas; it was his passion, his calling, and his source of joy and satisfaction. When he awoke with the flu one Sunday morning, his throat was like sandpaper and his voice would “catch” on words. Each syllable was painful to speak. The flu soon disappeared, but his windpipe remained ablaze and his voice reduced to a raspy whisper. His throat felt constricted, as if someone were choking him. For all practical purposes, Miller’s voice was gone. No longer able to preach, he resigned from his pastorate. He eventually landed a government job researching records—a position he then lost because his inability to speak meant he couldn’t testify in court about his findings. Insurance stopped covering his treatments, and he faced thousands of dollars in medical bills. “For the first time in my life, I felt utterly useless. My income, my future, my health, my sense of well-being, all were suddenly beyond my control. It was a terrifying and humbling experience,” he said. Over three years, he was examined by sixty-three physicians. His case was even scrutinized by a Swiss symposium of the world’s leading throat specialists. The diagnosis: the flu virus destroyed the nerves of his vocal cords, rendering them limp. When Miller asked about his prognosis for recovery, a doctor told him, “Zero.” Despite Miller’s protestations, his former Sunday school class at First Baptist Church of Houston prevailed on him to speak. A special microphone was used to amplify Miller’s soft, hoarse, croaky voice—and the class agreed to endure the grating sound because of their love for him and his teaching. Ironically, his text was Psalm 103, where the third verse reads, God “heals all your diseases.” Miller said later, “With my tongue, I was saying, ‘I still believe that God heals,’ but in my heart, I was screaming, ‘But why not me, Lord?’” He went on to the next verse, which says the Lord “redeems your life from the pit.” He told the class, “I have had and you have had in times past pit experiences.” As soon as he said the word pit, the choking sensation disappeared. “Now, for the first time in three years, I could breathe freely,” he recalled. “I heard a gasp from the crowd, and that’s when I, too, realized my voice had come back. I could hear myself!” His stunned audience began to clap and cheer, shout and laugh; his wife, Joylene, broke down in tears. “I don’t understand this right now,” Miller stammered—with a fresh, new voice. The dramatic moment of Miller’s recovery had been captured on audiotape, which went viral. Subsequent doctor examinations showed his throat looks like it never had any problems; in fact, against all odds, even the scar tissue has disappeared. Said one physician, “Even if I could explain how you got your voice back by coincidence—which I can’t—I could never explain what happened to the scar tissue.” Today, Miller is pastor of Pinnacle Church, serving the Cedar Creek Lake area of Texas. Ironically, he also hosts a daily program on a Dallas radio station—yes, using his voice to tell others about the God who he is convinced still performs miracles. “You see, God didn’t just restore my life,” he said. “He amplified it.”3 At his website, you can listen to the tape of when his voice came back.4 Then ask, “Is this a supernatural act of God? Or is it better explained as some sort of spontaneous remission that only coincidentally occurred while he was quoting the Bible on healing?”

 

elsbet

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Well @elsbet

Check this one out!

"Duane Miller’s greatest enjoyment came from preaching at his small church and singing songs of worship. It wasn’t just his livelihood to lead a Baptist congregation in Brenham, Texas; it was his passion, his calling, and his source of joy and satisfaction. When he awoke with the flu one Sunday morning, his throat was like sandpaper and his voice would “catch” on words. Each syllable was painful to speak. The flu soon disappeared, but his windpipe remained ablaze and his voice reduced to a raspy whisper. His throat felt constricted, as if someone were choking him. For all practical purposes, Miller’s voice was gone. No longer able to preach, he resigned from his pastorate. He eventually landed a government job researching records—a position he then lost because his inability to speak meant he couldn’t testify in court about his findings. Insurance stopped covering his treatments, and he faced thousands of dollars in medical bills. “For the first time in my life, I felt utterly useless. My income, my future, my health, my sense of well-being, all were suddenly beyond my control. It was a terrifying and humbling experience,” he said. Over three years, he was examined by sixty-three physicians. His case was even scrutinized by a Swiss symposium of the world’s leading throat specialists. The diagnosis: the flu virus destroyed the nerves of his vocal cords, rendering them limp. When Miller asked about his prognosis for recovery, a doctor told him, “Zero.” Despite Miller’s protestations, his former Sunday school class at First Baptist Church of Houston prevailed on him to speak. A special microphone was used to amplify Miller’s soft, hoarse, croaky voice—and the class agreed to endure the grating sound because of their love for him and his teaching. Ironically, his text was Psalm 103, where the third verse reads, God “heals all your diseases.” Miller said later, “With my tongue, I was saying, ‘I still believe that God heals,’ but in my heart, I was screaming, ‘But why not me, Lord?’” He went on to the next verse, which says the Lord “redeems your life from the pit.” He told the class, “I have had and you have had in times past pit experiences.” As soon as he said the word pit, the choking sensation disappeared. “Now, for the first time in three years, I could breathe freely,” he recalled. “I heard a gasp from the crowd, and that’s when I, too, realized my voice had come back. I could hear myself!” His stunned audience began to clap and cheer, shout and laugh; his wife, Joylene, broke down in tears. “I don’t understand this right now,” Miller stammered—with a fresh, new voice. The dramatic moment of Miller’s recovery had been captured on audiotape, which went viral. Subsequent doctor examinations showed his throat looks like it never had any problems; in fact, against all odds, even the scar tissue has disappeared. Said one physician, “Even if I could explain how you got your voice back by coincidence—which I can’t—I could never explain what happened to the scar tissue.” Today, Miller is pastor of Pinnacle Church, serving the Cedar Creek Lake area of Texas. Ironically, he also hosts a daily program on a Dallas radio station—yes, using his voice to tell others about the God who he is convinced still performs miracles. “You see, God didn’t just restore my life,” he said. “He amplified it.”3 At his website, you can listen to the tape of when his voice came back.4 Then ask, “Is this a supernatural act of God? Or is it better explained as some sort of spontaneous remission that only coincidentally occurred while he was quoting the Bible on healing?”

THANK YOU... watching now. :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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WOW.

Just... wow. Passing this one along.

Thanks again, Red. :)
When I first believed, I had a badge I used to wear at school that said "Jesus Lives".

Jeremiah 10

10But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:
at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

11Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

12He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The approach...

Hitting the Road Again

"The big issue, however, is whether belief in supernatural occurrences is based on mistake, misunderstanding, fraud, legend, rumor, wishful thinking, confirmation bias, the placebo effect—or reality.

In other words, does a miracle-performing God actually exist, and has he left his fingerprints all over supernatural events throughout history down to the present age? Is he even available to intervene in your life today?

That’s what I set out to determine in writing this book. While I’m a committed Christian whose convictions are widely known, I was truly interested in testing the strength of the case for miracles.

“Here we go again,” Leslie muttered with a smile when she saw me stuffing clothes into my suitcase. Yes, I was hitting the road to conduct face-to-face research with leading authorities so I could tap into their lifetime of experience and expertise.

That has been the methodology in most of my books: seeking out experts I can cross-examine in digging for truth. I figured there was no better place to start than to interview the most famous doubter in the country—Dr. Michael Shermer, founder and editor of Skeptic magazine. I zipped my luggage closed and grabbed my boarding pass for Los Angeles.

My goal in questioning Shermer was simple: I wanted him to build the strongest possible case against miracles. After all, if it’s rational to believe in the miraculous, then that case surely should be able to stand up to his challenges. In the end, I’ll ask you to render a verdict on whether or not it does."


From "The Case for Miracles" by Lee Strobel
 

Unknown Warrior

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God is able to perform miracles today and I am sure that He does. There are many miraculous events that take place and people only realize afterwards that a miracle occurred. How many times has someone been five minutes late and realized that if they had been on time, they would have been in a tragic accident? Other times, people have actually witnessed a divine miracle and nobody else believes it. Some people, however, would refuse to believe no matter what evidence exists.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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A Deaf Child Hears

With that, Keener began recounting some of the stories he had investigated. He started with the case of a nine-year-old British girl who was diagnosed with deafness in September 1982, apparently the result of a virus that severely damaged nerves in both of her ears. “Her case is reported by Dr. R. F. R. Gardner, a well-credentialed physician,” Keener said. “What makes this case especially interesting is that there is medical confirmation before the healing and immediately afterward, which is unusual to have.” The child’s medical record says she was diagnosed with “untreatable bilateral sensorineural deafness.” Her attending physician told her parents there was no cure and nothing he could do to repair her damaged nerves.

She was outfitted with hearing aids that did help her hear to some degree. The girl didn’t want to wear hearing aids the rest of her life, so she started to pray that God would heal her. Her family and friends joined her. In fact, her mother said she felt a definite prompting to call out for God’s help. “I kept feeling God was telling me to pray specifically for healing,” she said. “Passages kept coming out at me as I read: If you have faith like children . . . If one among you is ill, lay hands . . . Ask and you shall receive . . . Your faith has made you whole.”

On March 8, 1983, the girl went to the audiologist because one of her hearing aids had been damaged at school. After being examined and refitted, she was sent home. The next evening, the child suddenly jumped out of her bed without her hearing aids and came bounding down the stairs. “Mummy, I can hear!” she exclaimed. Her mother, astonished, tested to see if she could detect noises and words—and she could, even whispers. Her mother called the audiologist, who said, “I don’t believe you. It is not possible. All right, if some miracle has happened, I am delighted. Have audiograms done.”

The following day, she was tested again, and her audiogram and tympanogram came back fully normal. “I can give no explanation for this,” said the audiologist. “I have never seen anything like it in my life.” The girl’s doctor ruled out possible medical explanations. After repeated successful audiograms, the dumbfounded consultant’s advice to her parents: “Forget she was ever deaf.” In the medical report, the child’s ear, nose, and throat (ENT) surgeon used the word “inexplicable” to describe what happened. He wrote, “An audiogram did show her hearing in both ears to be totally and completely normal. I was completely unable to explain this phenomenon but naturally, like her parents, I was absolutely delighted . . . I can think of no rational explanation as to why her hearing returned to normal, there being a severe bilateral sensorineural loss.”

After documenting numerous case studies like this in his book, Gardner concludes, “A belief in the occurrence of cases of miraculous healing today is intellectually acceptable.” He said people who are still skeptical should consider what evidence they would be prepared to accept. “If the answer proves to be, ‘None,’ then you had better face the fact that you have abandoned logical enquiry.”

From Chapter 6, A Tide of Miracles, The Case for Miracles by Lee Srobel
 

Mr.Grieves

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Then ask, “Is this a supernatural act of God? Or is it better explained as some sort of spontaneous remission that only coincidentally occurred while he was quoting the Bible on healing?”
Well @elsbet

Check this one out!

"Duane Miller’s greatest enjoyment came from preaching at his small church and singing songs of worship. It wasn’t just his livelihood to lead a Baptist congregation in Brenham, Texas; it was his passion, his calling, and his source of joy and satisfaction. When he awoke with the flu one Sunday morning, his throat was like sandpaper and his voice would “catch” on words. Each syllable was painful to speak. The flu soon disappeared, but his windpipe remained ablaze and his voice reduced to a raspy whisper. His throat felt constricted, as if someone were choking him. For all practical purposes, Miller’s voice was gone. No longer able to preach, he resigned from his pastorate. He eventually landed a government job researching records—a position he then lost because his inability to speak meant he couldn’t testify in court about his findings. Insurance stopped covering his treatments, and he faced thousands of dollars in medical bills. “For the first time in my life, I felt utterly useless. My income, my future, my health, my sense of well-being, all were suddenly beyond my control. It was a terrifying and humbling experience,” he said. Over three years, he was examined by sixty-three physicians. His case was even scrutinized by a Swiss symposium of the world’s leading throat specialists. The diagnosis: the flu virus destroyed the nerves of his vocal cords, rendering them limp. When Miller asked about his prognosis for recovery, a doctor told him, “Zero.” Despite Miller’s protestations, his former Sunday school class at First Baptist Church of Houston prevailed on him to speak. A special microphone was used to amplify Miller’s soft, hoarse, croaky voice—and the class agreed to endure the grating sound because of their love for him and his teaching. Ironically, his text was Psalm 103, where the third verse reads, God “heals all your diseases.” Miller said later, “With my tongue, I was saying, ‘I still believe that God heals,’ but in my heart, I was screaming, ‘But why not me, Lord?’” He went on to the next verse, which says the Lord “redeems your life from the pit.” He told the class, “I have had and you have had in times past pit experiences.” As soon as he said the word pit, the choking sensation disappeared. “Now, for the first time in three years, I could breathe freely,” he recalled. “I heard a gasp from the crowd, and that’s when I, too, realized my voice had come back. I could hear myself!” His stunned audience began to clap and cheer, shout and laugh; his wife, Joylene, broke down in tears. “I don’t understand this right now,” Miller stammered—with a fresh, new voice. The dramatic moment of Miller’s recovery had been captured on audiotape, which went viral. Subsequent doctor examinations showed his throat looks like it never had any problems; in fact, against all odds, even the scar tissue has disappeared. Said one physician, “Even if I could explain how you got your voice back by coincidence—which I can’t—I could never explain what happened to the scar tissue.” Today, Miller is pastor of Pinnacle Church, serving the Cedar Creek Lake area of Texas. Ironically, he also hosts a daily program on a Dallas radio station—yes, using his voice to tell others about the God who he is convinced still performs miracles. “You see, God didn’t just restore my life,” he said. “He amplified it.”3 At his website, you can listen to the tape of when his voice came back.4 Then ask, “Is this a supernatural act of God? Or is it better explained as some sort of spontaneous remission that only coincidentally occurred while he was quoting the Bible on healing?”

A pretty compelling story, but do you have any of the doctors reports that says the flu 'destroyed' the nerves in his vocal cords, and that he had no chance of recovery? If he saw hundreds of doctors who specialize in the field, he must have their records, yes? Where can I see those?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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A pretty compelling story, but do you have any of the doctors reports that says the flu 'destroyed' the nerves in his vocal cords, and that he had no chance of recovery? If he saw hundreds of doctors who specialize in the field, he must have their records, yes? Where can I see those?
I believe it is a well documented case, but I will have a look into it and see what I can find out, as "miracle" has a high burden of proof!
 

Mr.Grieves

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I believe it is a well documented case, but I will have a look into it and see what I can find out, as "miracle" has a high burden of proof!
I appreciate it. It's stuff like this that would sway me away from atheism, actual evidence of supernatural occurrences / divine interventions, but I can't just take something like this at face value, particularly when the person in question being healed has a vested interest in his healing being miraculous.

After seeing this guy and similar 'holy men' at work, it's exceedingly difficult not to view 'faith healing' with suspicion.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I appreciate it. It's stuff like this that would sway me away from atheism, actual evidence of supernatural occurrences / divine interventions, but I can't just take something like this at face value, particularly when the person in question being healed has a vested interest in his healing being miraculous.

After seeing this guy and similar 'holy men' at work, it's exceedingly difficult not to view 'faith healing' with suspicion.
I totally agree, I have seen many spiritual "showmen", hysteria and pushings over - and some true and beautiful miracles too...

I was very privileged to see the real thing before I knew the fake existed.
 
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