Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[Red Sky at Morning]

Recently a few people on this forum have asked me a similar question "Why did Jesus have to die?"

This is not going to be a glib one liner, and some of the reasoning rests on who God is (which you may disagree with) whilst other parts rest on who we are (which again you might disagree with!)

I created a thread called "What I learned from a flying pig" about following the logic of ideas that we dismiss the foundation of. If you dismiss the foundation of the ideas shared here you might find it an interesting thought experiment.

When we ask a question such as this, we must be careful that we are not calling God into question. To wonder why God couldn’t find “another way” to do something is to imply that the way He has chosen is not the best course of action and that some other method would be better. Usually what we perceive as a “better” method is one that seems right to us. Before we can come to grips with anything God does, we have to first acknowledge that His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts—they are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8). In addition, Deuteronomy 32:4 reminds us that “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” Therefore, the plan of salvation He has designed is perfect, just, and upright, and no one could have come up with anything better.

The Scripture says, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Evidence affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on a cross. Most importantly, the Bible explains why Jesus’ death and resurrection provide the only entrance to heaven.

The punishment for sin is death.

God created earth and man perfect. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commands, He had to punish them. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. Death is God’s just consequence for sin. “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Even good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His goodness, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Ever since Adam’s sin, every human has been guilty of disobeying God’s righteous laws. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy, but also includes love of money, hatred of enemies, and deceit of tongue and pride. Because of sin, everyone has deserved death – eternal separation from God in hell.

The promise required an innocent death.

Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, He didn’t leave them without hope of reconciliation. He promised He would send a Savior to defeat the serpent (Genesis 3:15). Until then, men would sacrifice innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God who would bear their penalty. God reaffirmed His promise of the Sacrifice with men such as Abraham and Moses. Herein lies the beauty of God’s perfect plan: God Himself provided the only sacrifice (Jesus) who could atone for the sins of His people. God’s perfect Son fulfilled God’s perfect requirement of God’s perfect law. It is perfectly brilliant in its simplicity. “God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

The prophets foretold Jesus’ death.

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12).​

​

He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).

Why did Jesus have to die? Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

Source

 

[JoChris]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 10: 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Bacsi]

Recently a few people on this forum have asked me a similar question "Why did Jesus have to die?"

This is not going to be a glib one liner, and some of the reasoning rests on who God is (which you may disagree with) whilst other parts rest on who we are (which again you might disagree with!)

I created a thread called "What I learned from a flying pig" about following the logic of ideas that we dismiss the foundation of. If you dismiss the foundation of the ideas shared here you might find it an interesting thought experiment.

When we ask a question such as this, we must be careful that we are not calling God into question. To wonder why God couldn’t find “another way” to do something is to imply that the way He has chosen is not the best course of action and that some other method would be better. Usually what we perceive as a “better” method is one that seems right to us. Before we can come to grips with anything God does, we have to first acknowledge that His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts—they are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8). In addition, Deuteronomy 32:4 reminds us that “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” Therefore, the plan of salvation He has designed is perfect, just, and upright, and no one could have come up with anything better.

The Scripture says, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Evidence affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on a cross. Most importantly, the Bible explains why Jesus’ death and resurrection provide the only entrance to heaven.

The punishment for sin is death.

God created earth and man perfect. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commands, He had to punish them. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. Death is God’s just consequence for sin. “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Even good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His goodness, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Ever since Adam’s sin, every human has been guilty of disobeying God’s righteous laws. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy, but also includes love of money, hatred of enemies, and deceit of tongue and pride. Because of sin, everyone has deserved death – eternal separation from God in hell.

The promise required an innocent death.

Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, He didn’t leave them without hope of reconciliation. He promised He would send a Savior to defeat the serpent (Genesis 3:15). Until then, men would sacrifice innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God who would bear their penalty. God reaffirmed His promise of the Sacrifice with men such as Abraham and Moses. Herein lies the beauty of God’s perfect plan: God Himself provided the only sacrifice (Jesus) who could atone for the sins of His people. God’s perfect Son fulfilled God’s perfect requirement of God’s perfect law. It is perfectly brilliant in its simplicity. “God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

The prophets foretold Jesus’ death.

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12).​

​

He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).

Why did Jesus have to die? Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

Source

Nice theoretical explanation. Well, not really. Human sacrifice is bad and unjust.

Then, the méthod of salvation - faith in Jesus - brings to issues like people who lived before year 33 A.D. or haven't heard the gospel.

The mainstream Christian theology is just immoral, illogical and impractical.

 

[JoChris]

Nice theoretical explanation. Well, not really. Human sacrifice is bad and unjust.

Then, the méthod of salvation - faith in Jesus - brings to issues like people who lived before year 33 A.D. or haven't heard the gospel.

The mainstream Christian theology is just not moral, not logical and impractical.

But Jesus was not a mere human. He is fully God and fully man.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him (JESUS) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Godhead = Trinity (term made later to describe Godhead, 3 persons one God).

Therefore you by comparing Jesus' one time death with ritual human sacrifice show you do not understand Christian theology.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Hex is that you? You know, Shamans may have power and magick during dance and the main ability to channel and allow demons to possess their/your body. I can’t imagine how many demons you have and which one I am speaking with.

You silly tools of demons have forgotten that our Lord Jesus Christ who is God manifested in the flesh, God incarnate, the mystery of the Godhead, three in one. Some of us Christians have spiritual gifts granted by the father and determined by the holy spirit evenly gifting all those in the body of Christ in which mine happens to be Discerner of Spirits.


Funny how the true trolls of this former are allowed to get away with trolling Christians. It needs to be pointed out, but carry on as our Lord Jesus exposes your foolishly folly in trying to lead Christians into apostacy..... we know ALL about that, but that’s you’re job is to wear out the saints isn’t? HA HA!!!! We do not worry, we do not fear and we most definitely do not fret because we all firmly believe without a shadow of a doubt that our Lord Jesus, our precious redeemer is coming back and I hope and pray that I get granted the opportunity to see your face and all the other retrobrates on here. I’ll leave it with this because I can see @basci that he is here to be relentless on trolling Christians

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 NIV

12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Stay strong brothers and sisters in the body if Christ the time is now to cling to one another, being there and encouraging, edifying and supporting one another!!!
These are our spiritual gifts that we have but to my dismay, some Christians ignore their gifts and it also warns to never do that.

1 Corinthians 12:7-31 NIV

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Love Is Indispensable

And yet I will show you the most excellent way

The body of Christ treat each other terrible, despite our differences in doctrine, theology and eschatology. Some of us understand scripture differently, especially if you have bedn raised to believe what it is you believe, which is no one’s fault. That’s all I have to say. God bless everyone and your families that during these hard times for all us, may he protect you during these hard times.

MY GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD!!!
Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! PRAISE THE LORD!!! HALEIGHLUAH GLORY BE UNTO THE FATHER!

The body of Christ need each other more than ever. We need to stick so close to eachother and share our burdens with one another.
We must do it because Christians are commanded to, sisters and brothers we must not neglect one another, nor allow the enemy to divide us!

Galatians 6:1-10 NIV

Doing Good to All

1Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5for each one should carry their own load. 6Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

In Jesus name I pray that your WILL be done here my precious sweet Jesus, no other love!!!! Amen.

Amen.

 

[JoChris]

Hex is that you? You know, Shamans may have power and magick during dance and the main ability to channel and allow demons to possess their/your body. I can’t imagine how many demons you have and which one I am speaking with.

You silly tools of demons have forgotten that our Lord Jesus Christ who is God manifested in the flesh, God incarnate, the mystery of the Godhead, three in one. Some of us Christians have spiritual gifts granted by the father and determined by the holy spirit evenly gifting all those in the body of Christ in which mine happens to be Discerner of Spirits.


Funny how the true trolls of this former are allowed to get away with trolling Christians. It needs to be pointed out, but carry on as our Lord Jesus exposes your foolishly folly in trying to lead Christians into apostacy..... we know ALL about that, but that’s you’re job is to wear out the saints isn’t? HA HA!!!! We do not worry, we do not fear and we most definitely do not fret because we all firmly believe without a shadow of a doubt that our Lord Jesus, our precious redeemer is coming back and I hope and pray that I get granted the opportunity to see your face and all the other retrobrates on here on the day of Judgement. I’ll leave it with this because I can see @basci that he is here to be relentless on trolling Christians

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 NIV

12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Stay strong brothers and sisters in the body of Christ the time is now to cling to one another, being there and encouraging, edifying and supporting one another!!!
These are our spiritual gifts that we have but to my dismay, some Christians ignore their gifts and it also warns to never do that.

1 Corinthians 12:7-31 NIV

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Love Is Indispensable

And yet I will show you the most excellent way

The body of Christ treat each other terribly , despite our differences in doctrine, theology and eschatology. Some of us understand scripture differently, especially if you have been raised to believe what it is you believe, which is no one’s fault. That’s all I have to say. God bless everyone and your families that during these hard times for all us, may he protect you during these hard times.

MY GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD!!!
Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! PRAISE THE LORD!!! HALEIGHLUAH GLORY BE UNTO THE FATHER!

The body of Christ need each other more than ever. We need to stick so close to eachother and share our burdens with one another.
We must do it because Christians are commanded to, sisters and brothers we must not neglect one another, nor allow the enemy to divide us!

Galatians 6:1-10 NIV

Doing Good to All

1Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5for each one should carry their own load. 6Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

In Jesus name I pray that your WILL be done here my precious sweet Jesus, no other love!!!! Amen.

Thank you for your wonderful entry and encouragement, my sister-in-Christ.

 

[grateful servant]

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah.

Spoken like a Muslim.

 

[JoChris]

Spoken like a Muslim.

Don't you mean a Jew?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Spoken like a Muslim.

You see, we have something in common!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I just looked this up on "discernment" with reference to comments on this thread earlier - a very interesting article!

What is the Gift of Discernment?

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good… to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits…All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (1 Cor 12:7-11)

Discernment of spirits is a gift of the Holy Spirit given to some Christian believers. It is a Spirit-given ability to distinguish whether Divine, human or demonic origins are the source of what is presented—whether it be in an atmosphere, encounter, event, or prophetic message.

What are Some Signs You May Have the Gift of Discernment?

Following are some signs that you may have the spiritual gift of discernment, from my personal study, observation and experience. You may not identify with all of them, but if you do have the gift, you will recognise some of these in your life:

1. Desire for the Gift

As with other spiritual gifts, desire is often the first sign of a gift of discernment of spirits (1 Cor 14:1).

You may have a longing to see people set free from demonic bondage.
You may want to be more effective in prayer and spiritual warfare
You may have a desire for holiness
You may simply be curious about the spiritual realm.

2. Love for God’s Presence

One of the benefits of having a gift of discernment of spirits is a heightened awareness of God’s Presence and anointing. A true discerner will have a passion for the un-grieved Presence of the Holy Spirit.

This is because—and I will continually reiterate this—the highest use of the gift of discernment is not to see what the enemy is doing, but to discern what the Spirit of God is doing.

3. Sensitivity to the Spiritual Atmosphere

You may be more sensitive to spiritual atmospheres than most other people. In the early stages of developing the gift, you may be affected adversely by the presence of any demonic activity in the environment around you.

The reality is that we live in a natural world and a spiritual world concurrently. In the Bible, when Jacob came across a group of angels, he named that place Mahanaim, meaning ‘double camp.’ (Gen 32:1-2)

Like Jacob realised, we also live in a double camp where there is constant spiritual activity, and discerners have spiritual senses that are attuned to this.

4. Feeling Different from Other People

Most people, even in church life, experience life through their natural senses. However, someone with an emerging gift of discernment of spirits can see and sense things that others do not see.

This ability can result in us feeling different, lonely or misunderstood at times, especially when starting out. It is vital that someone with a developing gift of discernment finds a safe place to journey with others who are similarly gifted and accountable in the life of their church.

5. Unusual Signs

It is not uncommon for someone who is gifted in discernment to experience unusual events or manifestations.

People who are incubating a discernment gift begin to see or feel things that others are not aware of. This may include unusual visions, dreams and sensations that alert them to what is happening in the spiritual realm.

6. Childhood or Pre-Salvation Signs

It is not uncommon to experience things relating to your gift even before becoming a Christian. Our creator-God prepares us for our calling and gifts from conception. Even when a talent or gift is misused, God can redeem it and anoint it for His use to serve Him and love and minister to others.

As a child I ‘saw’ things in the night and as a teenager was sensitive to the spiritual realm, sometimes encountering demonic spirits in my room or dreams. Later, as a fully committed Christian, God redeemed this spiritual sensitivity as a gift of discernment. I know Christians who have a gift of discernment who were drawn to New Age counterfeit gifts prior to becoming a Christian.

7. Ability to Know What Lies Behind a Person’s Words or Actions

Someone with a gift of discernment has the ability to see behind what a person is saying and presenting. You may know whether they are telling the truth or not. You may also recognise if someone is manifesting a demonic spirit and be able to identify what that spirit is.

If a prophetic or revelatory message is brought, a discerner can often tell whether it is anointed of the Spirit or from the speaker’s own heart.

This is not always the case, and as with other revelatory gifts such as prophecy, you will sometimes get it wrong or have incomplete discernment (1 Thess 5:19-21, 1 Cor 13:9-10)

8. Confirmation by Others and Leaders

You may have the gift confirmed through a prophecy given to you. My gift of discernment was identified through prophecy twice (perhaps this was because I was reluctant to accept it!)

However, the bottom line of the presence of any gift is that it is recognised and acknowledged by leaders in the church and that it is useful for its purpose—which is to help build up the church and bring people closer to Jesus.

When you submit what you are seeing or sensing, your leaders confirm your accuracy and your gift begins to be recognised for its effectiveness.

Whenever a gift is used to criticise or tear down a church, person or leader, you know it is being misused, or is simply a person’s hurt, frustration or agenda masquerading as discernment. Because these kinds of abuses are common and have brought disrepute to the gift of discernment, I will take some time over the next couple of posts to share how the gift of discernment can bring value to church life.

https://www.enlivenpublishing.com/b...u-may-have-the-spiritual-gift-of-discernment/

 

[Violette]

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
God sets the standards for morality so none of his actions can be immoral. Everyone’s actions should be considered by its context. If I slice open my neighbor it’s murder, if it happens in the hospital then it’s surgery Jesus sacrifice fits perfectly into God’s ultimate plan. The wages of sin is death, no amount of good works could ever bridge the gap between God and man...that’s all sin is really, separation from God. Jesus suffered for us, he was the only one who could fulfill God’s requirements for the penalty of sin and fulfillment of the law. Love is the fulfillment of the law. God is love ♡

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Violette

What I have always found interesting is that the plan of salvation is in the Bible from the garden onwards. Interesting too that the Jews who reject the messiah still preserved the types and shadows of His coming in their scriptures.

Luke 24:13-35 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Road to Emmaus

13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

17 And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”

18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”

19 And He said to them, “What things?”

So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He [c]expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

 

[Kung Fu]

You have big contradiction on your hand. One the one hand you claim that a Judge (God) who pardons law-breakers isn't a righteous Judge but on the other hand this Judge also needed the death of an innocent individual who did nothing wrong to die for the mistakes of others. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Serveto]

Hex is that you? You know, Shamans may have power and magick during dance and the main ability to channel and allow demons to possess their/your body. I can’t imagine how many demons you have and which one I am speaking with.

You silly tools of demons have forgotten that our Lord Jesus Christ who is God manifested in the flesh, God incarnate, the mystery of the Godhead, three in one. Some of us Christians have spiritual gifts granted by the father and determined by the holy spirit evenly gifting all those in the body of Christ in which mine happens to be Discerner of Spirits.


Funny how the true trolls of this former are allowed to get away with trolling Christians. It needs to be pointed out, but carry on as our Lord Jesus exposes your foolishly folly in trying to lead Christians into apostacy..... we know ALL about that, but that’s you’re job is to wear out the saints isn’t? HA HA!!!! We do not worry, we do not fear and we most definitely do not fret because we all firmly believe without a shadow of a doubt that our Lord Jesus, our precious redeemer is coming back and I hope and pray that I get granted the opportunity to see your face and all the other retrobrates on here on the day of Judgement. I’ll leave it with this because I can see @basci that he is here to be relentless on trolling Christians

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 NIV

12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Stay strong brothers and sisters in the body of Christ the time is now to cling to one another, being there and encouraging, edifying and supporting one another!!!
These are our spiritual gifts that we have but to my dismay, some Christians ignore their gifts and it also warns to never do that.

1 Corinthians 12:7-31 NIV

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues.b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized byc one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Love Is Indispensable

And yet I will show you the most excellent way

The body of Christ treat each other terribly , despite our differences in doctrine, theology and eschatology. Some of us understand scripture differently, especially if you have been raised to believe what it is you believe, which is no one’s fault. That’s all I have to say. God bless everyone and your families that during these hard times for all us, may he protect you during these hard times.

MY GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD!!!
Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! PRAISE THE LORD!!! HALEIGHLUAH GLORY BE UNTO THE FATHER!

The body of Christ need each other more than ever. We need to stick so close to eachother and share our burdens with one another.
We must do it because Christians are commanded to, sisters and brothers we must not neglect one another, nor allow the enemy to divide us!

Galatians 6:1-10 NIV

Doing Good to All

1Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5for each one should carry their own load. 6Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

In Jesus name I pray that your WILL be done here my precious sweet Jesus, no other love!!!! Amen.

This rings hollow, as little more than an emotion-packed screed, wrapped in scripture and piety. @Red Sky at Morning asked the question, @Bacsi answered. It's an open forum, on a conspiracy board, not a prayer meeting at CARM. An opposing opinion, even repeatedly expressed, does not equate to trolling. If you are so good at discerning spirits, identify the hate-filled one that keeps relentlessly stalking @justjess, and, once identified, exorcise it, permanently.

 

[Haich]

The punishment for sin is death.

So there's no accountability?

Death is a natural stage of life and isn't a form of punishment.

Don't mean to sound blunt just trying to get my head around it.

 

[Kung Fu]

This rings hollow, as little more than an emotion-packed screed, wrapped in scripture and piety. @Red Sky at Morning asked the question, @Bacsi answered. It's an open forum, on a conspiracy board, not a prayer meeting at CARM. An opposing opinion, even repeatedly expressed, does not equate to trolling. If you are so good at discerning spirits, identify the hate-filled one that keeps relentlessly stalking @justjess, and, once identified, exorcise it, permanently.

Add yet another sock account to this crazy woman's list of sock accounts. The funny thing is she doesn't even try to hide anymore. It's so obvious it hurts my head.

 

[Bacsi]

But Jesus was not a mere human. He is fully God and fully man.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him (JESUS) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Godhead = Trinity (term made later to describe Godhead, 3 persons one God).

Therefore you by comparing Jesus' one time death with ritual human sacrifice show you do not understand Christian theology.

I understand you very well.

The thing is, the mainstream Christian theology states that Jesus was not only God, but also 100% human. In the gospels, Jesus is portrayed as a lesser being than the Father. Jesus himself says that he simply does what the Father tells him to do, and without the Father directing he doesn't do anything. Jesus doesn't know everything, only the Father does. Jesus prays to the Father and asks him to forgive people or let the fate of being sacrificed on the cross pass him. We see Jesus described as a human, being born, growing up, feeling hungry, tired, upset, sorrowful and happy at different times. He's very much a man. And he's specifically called a sacrifice, the lamb of God.

So I'm not inventing anything at all. I describe the Christian belief exactly in the terms Christianity itself is using. I only draw attention to the illogical, unjust and immoral aspect of such belief.

You're being dishonest by trying to denounce what your religion teaches. If I don't like a house being dirty, for example, you can't say it's not dirty because the siding is brown. Yes, the outside wall is brown in colour. But it doesn't change the fact the house is dirty inside! A quality you ascribe to something doesn't remove another quality also ascribed to it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You have big contradiction on your hand. One the hand you claim that a Judge (God) who pardons law-breakers isn't a righteous Judge but on the other hand this Judge also needed the death of an innocent individual who did nothing wrong to die for the mistakes of others. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Actually Kung Fu, you have just asked your best ever question (to me anyway).

Given (and I can't assume you share these starting points) God is both entirely just and all loving, how might He reconcile Man who has fallen and given dominion to satan?

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Perhaps He could set the bar of justice lower, or maybe the price of redemption cheaper but as satan and the "spirits that sinned" will be punished for their rebellion, they would have recourse to call God unfair.

Put simply, God punishes sin with it's true penalty, yet out of love pays the price himself.

Of course, such an explanation relies on a belief in certain attributes of God, the concept of original sin, the trinity etc. This is why Chtistianity "guess so" doesn't work.

 

[Bacsi]

You silly tools of demons ... getting away with trolling Christians ... wear out the saints ... HA HA!!!! ... see you retrobrates on the day of Judgement

Amen.

Thank you for your wonderful entry and encouragement, my sister-in-Christ.

Personal attacks, desire to silence and wishing to enjoy the view of punishment - all in response to respectful discussion. Very nice.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Nice. Personal attacks in response to respectful discussion.

The issue you have in presenting yourself as a shaman is that we differ in our view of what entities you are in touch with. You believe they are ancestors. Christians would see them as ventriloquist demons. Btw I apologise for being so direct here.

You are someone for whom Christ died, and are another one of Gods lost kids (like we were).

In a hostage situation the challenge is to shoot the guy with the gun, not the victim with the pistol held to his head. If in trying to dislodge you from your captor we have hurt you instead please know this is not the intention of any Christian on this forum.