What is the meaning of the feeding of the 5000 (and the 4000) and what about the baskets??

[Red Sky at Morning]

And what would you think that prophetic significance might be please, along with the fact that it didn't allow the wasting of the fragments left over from the feeding of the 4000 and the 5000? And what was the spiritual significance of Him feeding the two groups in the first place? Please enlighten us.

Well, just my take but this is how I see it:

Number in scripture is rarely wasted, from 7 days of creation to 7 branches on the Menorah and the 7 feasts of the Lord to the 153 fish counted on the beach after the resurrection. It’s a study in its own right.

As far as the feeding of the multitudes and the gathering of the baskets, Jesus intimates that there may be a greater significance to it than a feast and a tidy up.

Mark 8


Leaven of the Pharisees and Herod

(Matthew 16:5-12)

14Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. 15And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?​

Here are the numeric equations:

Feeds 5000 with

• 5 loaves
• 12 baskets left over

Feeds 4000 with

• 7 loaves
• 7 baskets left over

Also, 4 denotes completeness, 5 denotes grace.

Since Jesus was the promised Messiah, He came for those who looked forward to His coming. Here’s how the baskets may signify actually redemptive history, especially as Jesus is the “bread of life”.

Old Covenant: Christ first feeds people (out of grace) and yields the 12 baskets. This is God first establishing the People of Israel (12 tribes) in the Old Testament and signifies that Jesus was the fulfilment of the promise made to Abraham.

New Covenant: Christ thereafter feeds people and yields the 7 baskets. 7 churches are spoken of in Revelation indicating the church through the ages. The two feedings and gatherings represent the completeness of God’s plan.

 

[A Freeman]

Thank-you. Along with the very simple lesson of becoming perfect, like Father is perfect (and thus is never wasteful), the following Scripture regarding the feeding of the 5000+, while of course physically true, can also be seen as an allegory.

Matthew 14:19-20
14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to [his] disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

This is the allegorical interpretation:

Matthew 14:19-20
14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves (The Books of Moses), and the two fishes (Two Covenants), and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves (The Torah) to [his] disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full (The Remnant of Israel - Rev. 7:4-8).


With regard to the feeding of the 4000+ in Matt. 15:29-38), 7 in Scripture is Father's number of completeness:, e.g. 7 days in a complete week, 7 spirits, 7 stars, 7 angels, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 thunders, 7 candlesticks, 7 communities (not churches), etc.:

Christ -- Who is The Bread of Life from above (John 6:33-35) and The Only Teacher (Matt. 23:10), Lawgiver (Gen. 49:10; Isa. 42:21) and Judge (John 5:22) -- is referred to in Revelation as the 7th angel (Rev. 10) and the only one Who can break the 7 seals to unlock Scripture during these end-times (Rev. 5:1-9) to explain "the mystery of God" (Rev. 10:7), i.e. to show us plainly of the Father (John 16:25).

So the 7 loaves with a few fishes (the spiritual teachings of Christ about The Law and the Gospel) and the 7 baskets of fragments gathered symbolized completeness (complete Scripture, complete Angel/Messenger delivering that spiritual food, and the complete remnant gathered - Rev. 7:4-8; Rev. 14:1-4).

These two feedings have nothing to do with dividing the Scripture up between the Old and New Covenants, and it should be noted that the 7 communities in Revelation (situated in Asia Minor, halfway between Babylon and Rome) were reprimanded for what they have done wrong. The only way to accept the New Covenant is to accept and keep the Old Covenant too (Matt. 5:17-20); in other words we must accept and keep both Covenants.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

The "New Song" = the "Song of Moses" AND the "Song of the Lamb".

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

and it should be noted that the 7 communities in Revelation (situated in Asia Minor, halfway between Babylon and Rome) were reprimanded for what they have done wrong.

The church in Philadelphia was not reprimanded.

Rev 3:7-13

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[A Freeman]

The church in Philadelphia was not reprimanded.

Rev 3:7-13

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The Greek word being incorrectly translated as " church" in the version you've cited above is "ekklesia" (or ekklesias in plural form), which means "community" (or communities), NOT church. As Christ said, only heathens and hypocrites go to church, etc., to be seen by others (Matt. 6:5-8).

The community of Philadelphia was told that they had "a little strength", which means there was plenty of room for improvement.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What I find interesting.is the idea that a “parable” means something that is laid aside something else.

If you lay it alongside the wrong thing, no meaning (or an incorrect understanding) arises.

 

[A Freeman]

1 Peter 1:1-2; 5:12-14
1:1 Peter, an Apostle of Christ Jesus, to those of the twelve tribes scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, ASIA, and Bithynia,
1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Holy Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
5:13 She [that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.
5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of compassion. Peace [be] with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The Greek word being incorrectly translated as " church" in the version you've cited above is "ekklesia" (or ekklesias in plural form), which means "community" (or communities), NOT church. As Christ said, only heathens and hypocrites go to church, etc., to be seen by others (Matt. 6:5-8).

The community of Philadelphia was told that they had "a little strength", which means there was plenty of room for improvement.

- I always quote the KJV, but 90% of translations use the word "church". Obviously not referring to a church building, as the believers met in houses back then.

The remaining few translations use the word "assembly".

Revelation 3:7 - To the Church in Philadelphia

To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens no one can shut, and what He shuts no one can open.

biblehub.com

church
ἐκκλησίας (ekklēsias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.

- Matt 6:5-8 refers to synagogues, there were no "churches" at the time

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

ALL the versions say synagogues

Matthew 6:5 - The Lord's Prayer

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.

biblehub.com

- A careful reading of Revelation 2 and 3 will show that the other 6 churches or assemblies of believers were reprimanded (and also complimented on what they had done right, with the exception of laodicea) in contrast to philadelphia.

Reading how Rev3:8 is worded in other translations shows how admirable it was if despite having only a little strength the assembly of believers/church at philadelphia kept God's word and did not deny His name.

Revelation 3:8 - To the Church in Philadelphia

I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name.

biblehub.com

 

[A Freeman]

Acts 7:48-52
7:48 Howbeit the Most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
7:49 Heaven [is] My throne, and Earth [is] My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of My rest?
7:50 Hath not My hand made all these things?
7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Temples made with human hands include ALL churches, synagogues, mosques, etc.

Christ's Ekklesia and The Church Compared

 

[elsbet's cat ^. .^]

The only way to accept the New Covenant is to accept and keep the Old Covenant too (Matt. 5:17-20); in other words we must accept and keep both Covenants.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

The "New Song" = the "Song of Moses" AND the "Song of the Lamb".

The "New Song" in Revelation 14:3 is a new song, which has not yet been sung... just as the text reads.

There are multiple references to New Songs throughout the bible. If there was only one song, it would not be called A NEW Song.

ōdḗ
5603: New Testament Greek
spontaneous, impromptu
( unrehearsed )
melodies of praise
– not merely sung about (for) God
but to God from a Spirit-filled heart.
•

ōdḗ to joy

Spoiler

~ the well loved song is familiar... the performance and ensuing exultance, however, are quite spontaneous.
•
​

The Old Covenant is OBSOLETE.
Hebrews 8:13

Spoiler: Hallelujah.

•​

 

[A Freeman]

The "New Song" in Revelation 14:3 is a new song, which has not yet been sung... just as the text reads.

There are multiple references to New Songs throughout the bible. If there was only one song, it would not be called A NEW Song.

ōdḗ
5603: New Testament Greek
spontaneous, impromptu
( unrehearsed )
melodies of praise
– not merely sung about (for) God
but to God from a Spirit-filled heart.
•

ōdḗ to joy

Spoiler

~ the well loved song is familiar... the performance and ensuing exultance, however, are quite spontaneous.
•
​

The Old Covenant is OBSOLETE.
Hebrews 8:13

Spoiler: Hallelujah.

•​

Agreed about the New Song being something that has yet to be sung. The "New Song" is only "new" because we have never before learned to sing it (know it by heart, in a new heart of flesh - Ezek. 36:26; Heb. 10:16).

The same way that the "new" Commandment Christ gave us was only "new" because it's something we had never previously learned nor kept.

John 13:34 A new COMMANDment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the "I AM".

There are multiple references to the NEW SONG (singular, one song) throughout Scripture, because it is critically important we learn it, before it's too late.

Psalm 33:3 Sing unto Him a NEW SONG; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psalm 40:3 And He hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the "I AM".

Psalm 96:1 O sing unto the "I AM" a NEW SONG: sing unto the "I AM", all the earth.

Psalm 98:1 <A Psalm.> O sing unto the "I AM" a NEW SONG; for He hath done marvellous things: His right hand, and His holy arm, hath gotten Him the victory.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a NEW SONG unto Thee, O God: upon a psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto Thee.

Psalm 149:1 Praise ye the "I AM". Sing unto the "I AM" a NEW SONG, [and] His praise in the congregation of His holy people.

Isaiah 42:10 Sing unto the "I AM" the "NEW SONG" (Rev. 14:3; 15:3), [and] His praise from the "end of the earth", ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

Revelation 5:9-10
5:9 And they sung a NEW SONG (Isa 42:10), saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and channels: and we shall reign on the Earth.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: AND NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT "SONG" EXCEPT THE HUNDRED [AND] FORTY [AND] FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

Time is running out to learn the New Commandment and the New Song.

God Bless.

 

[elsbet's cat ^. .^]

Agreed about the New Song being something that has yet to be sung. The "New Song" is only "new" because we have never before learned to sing it (know it by heart, in a new heart of flesh - Ezek. 36:26; Heb. 10:16).

The same way that the "new" Commandment Christ gave us was only "new" because it's something we had never previously learned nor kept.

John 13:34 A new COMMANDment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the "I AM".

There are multiple references to the NEW SONG (singular, one song) throughout Scripture, because it is critically important we learn it, before it's too late.

No... I have to reject this interpretation-- there is no support for it in the bible.

​

Spoiler

No one could learn that song except​

the 144,000 who had been redeemed​

from the earth. Rev. 14​

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb...​

​

And they sang a new song, saying... ​

​

New means new.
So... a new song means just that: a new song.


Strong's Concordance - Hebrew & Greek
Hebrews 8:13

•
​

 

[A Freeman]

No... I have to reject this interpretation-- there is no support for it in the bible.

​

Spoiler

No one could learn that song except​

the 144,000 who had been redeemed​

from the earth. Rev. 14​

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb...​

​

And they sang a new song, saying... ​

​

New means new.
So... a new song means just that: a new song.


Strong's Concordance - Hebrew & Greek
Hebrews 8:13

•
​

It is exactly that level of ignorance and dishonesty that prevents anyone exercising it from being one of the 144,000.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It is exactly that level of ignorance and dishonesty that prevents anyone exercising it from being one of the 144,000.

Do you find it interesting that most of the Christian cults latch on the the 144000 as being a select, exclusive number of people destined for their particular flavour of salvation?

 

[A Freeman]

Do you find it interesting that most of the Christian cults latch on the the 144000 as being a select, exclusive number of people destined for their particular flavour of salvation?

Do you not find it both humbling and cause for concern that Christ made that TRUE, prophetic statement, i.e. that ONLY 144,000 will be redeemed? And that NONE of those redeemed from the Earth would be from the numerous CULTS/SECTS/DENOMINATIONS that calls themselves "Christianity" (Matt. 7:21-27; Rev. 7:4-9)?

Revelation 18:3-8
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the Earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the Earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her inequities.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God Who judgeth her.

 

[elsbet's cat ^. .^]

Do you find it interesting that most of the Christian cults latch on the the 144000 as being a select number destined for their particular flavour of salvation?

I do -- but in the most unfortunate sense.

I've often wondered if the allure of qualifying for a Special Place in Heaven is the primary motivation for the followers of these modern day, self-proclaimed prophets.

It would explain the unquestioning support for the standard, extra-biblical obstacle courses required to make the final cut--> according to the biblical interpretations of their prophets, mind you.

All this, in spite of the indisputable fact, repeated throughout the bible--> Salvation cannot be earned.

Spoiler

I do not reject the grace of God.
For if righteousness is through the law,
then Christ died in vain. Gal. 2:21 (par.)

For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:21-22

. . .​

 

[elsbet's cat ^. .^]

I always quote the KJV, but 90% of translations use the word "church". Obviously not referring to a church building, as the believers met in houses back then.

The remaining few translations use the word "assembly".

Revelation 3:7 - To the Church in Philadelphia

To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens no one can shut, and what He shuts no one can open.

biblehub.com

church
ἐκκλησίας (ekklēsias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.

- Matt 6:5-8 refers to synagogues, there were no "churches" at the time

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

ALL the versions say synagogues

Matthew 6:5 - The Lord's Prayer

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.

biblehub.com

- A careful reading of Revelation 2 and 3 will show that the other 6 churches or assemblies of believers were reprimanded (and also complimented on what they had done right, with the exception of laodicea) in contrast to philadelphia.

Reading how Rev3:8 is worded in other translations shows how admirable it was if despite having only a little strength the assembly of believers/church at philadelphia kept God's word and did not deny His name.

Revelation 3:8 - To the Church in Philadelphia

I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name.

biblehub.com

This!

​

I use biblehub.com, too-- and I love the additional explanations offered in this entry (Strong's, Thayer's, etc.).

Ekklēsía is definitely not a building.

ekklēsía​

properly, people called out from the world​

and to God, the outcome being the Church​

--> the mystical body of Christ ​

​

i.e. the universal (total) body of believers​

whom God calls out from the world and​

into His eternal kingdom.​

. . .​

​