UFO Disclosure and AI

[Bubbajay]

King Saul was also reputed for his height. The Bible doesn't give specifics but it does say:
"He had a son named Saul, an impressive young man without equal among the Israelites---a head taller than any of the others."~ 1 Samuel 9:2
Likely over 7ft?? if we assume the average Israelite male ranged in height of 5ft--6.5ft

King Og of Bashan's "bed was made of iron and was more than 13ft long and 6ft wide" (Deut 3:11). Being the last of the Rephaites (Deut 2:10-11, Genesis 14:5), he must have been more than 12ft in height.


Indeed. The diminishing stature of the human race is the best and most visible evidence in making a case FOR the Fall. If there was no suppression of the evidence of giants, anyone would be forced to wonder how or why it is that man is shrinking in size. No one would fall for the evolution garbage. It would be "living evidence" testifying to the events and impact of the Fall and the Flood but Rockefeller-Carnegie funded education teaches us to believe we are evolving to our best selves...even as those foundations pour money into poisoning the air, food and water.

Spoiler

View attachment 65416
VS
View attachment 65417

Nope! The plan is to shrink you even further. TPTB know what they are doing...small stature=smaller brains=diminshed intellect.

This was posted by Frank in his thread (pg 793)
"Very revealing and prophetic comment from Peter Gabriel. In this clip from 2007, Peter discusses the song "Get Em Out By Friday" which was recorded in 1971 for the Genesis album Foxtrot. Peter talks of a future (2012) where genetic engineering will be used to control the evolution of man, and in this case make people smaller so that many more apartments can fit into the same building. He goes on to say basically that genetic engineering is a reality in the near future. The concept of making people smaller is currently being discussed today by globalist think tank groups."

At 18:58 - 20:27

And Hollywood reaffirms the agenda.

I believe king Og was around the size of Goliath. A 10ft person on a 13ft wouldn't be out of place. I also believe Saul to have been tall, but not abnormal like in the 7ft plus range. The average person back then was shorter, so I'd put Saul a head over 5'6. Probably about 6'6 or so. Just my opinion. I don't believe the bible has ever spoken of "human fallen angel hybrids" that's become popular in main stream Christianity over the last couple decades. The Sons of God have always been saved believers from the OT to the NT.

 

[Bubbajay]

I'm sorry-- you didn't understand the post.
-

I apologize if I read it wrong. Please elaborate.

 

[Karlysymon]

The average person back then was shorter,

What makes you say that?

The average height of a Chinese man is 5"5 which is why surgeries to lengthen their bones is really popular over there. The Japanese tend to be taller though. Height and lifespan haven't changed much since the time of David or Saul.

"The length of our days is 70 years or 80, if we have the strength"~Psalm 90:10

We presently inhabit a really toxic enviroment, coupled with our sedentary lifestyles that i have a really hard time believing we "have it better" than the ancients.

I don't believe the bible has ever spoken of "human fallen angel hybrids" that's become popular in main stream Christianity over the last couple decades

Agreed. When i made my first comment on the giants topic, i wondered to myself if the people who perpetuate this theory aren't inadvertently promoting evolution or even sinister things like cross-species relations.
Man was created "a little lower than the angels"(Psalm 8:5). He can no more procreate with beings of a "higher order" anymore than he would with lower creatures, put under his dominion. People engage in bestial acts all the time and no one has ever seen offspring naturally arise from such acts. Now, someone could go to the lab and splice genes to create chimeras but that isn't the same thing as "sons of God married the daughters of Men to produce giants". This theory isn't helped by the fact that antiquity boasted of giant plants and animals. Were gigantic fauna and flora because of marriage too? The people who hold to the marriage theory avoid this question because they cannot account for the existence of giant plants and animals.

 

[elsbet]

I can see a number of possibilities converging, and could create a few sci-fi sounding scenarios out of them, but as we’re not there (quite) yet, I will hold my peace and keep my eyes open @elsbet ;-)

Hopefully we'll all be long dead before that day arrives. ;-)

I apologize if I read it wrong. Please elaborate.

No worries.

Figurative, yes-- we aren't grasshoppers... but the comparison suggests they attributed a "godlike" presence to the nephilim (and to their descendants), I imagine due to their stature-- and maybe outright meanness. The concordance applies the same description to both verses-- simile of insignificance.*
Both verses imply an ability to possibly crush a person like an insect-- * a simile also used by Geordie Rose to describe his "Kindred" project, now that I think of it.

Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up.

This is not, however, the hill I'm willing to die on, since canon doesn't provide something more concrete, to my knowledge. That doesn't mean I refuse to believe it could be possible, though.

Not sure if you saw this, above:

Spoiler: Flood

"The fact that God allowed it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights leads me to believe their were giants in a more literal sense.

It would not take that big of a flood to drown a 7-10 foot human. The waters rose up high enough to cover the mountains so as far as I am concerned it was necessary to kill off some incredibly tall humans..."

This interests me, though-- the root word for Nephilim does not mean giant-- it means fallen. They knew that, but Nephilim is still translated a race of giants. If they exceeded 12ft (Og of Bashan), it makes sense it would have been in the antediluvian world.
-

 

[Bubbajay]

What makes you say that?

The average height of a Chinese man is 5"5 which is why surgeries to lengthen their bones is really popular over there. The Japanese tend to be taller though. Height and lifespan haven't changed much since the time of David or Saul.

"The length of our days is 70 years or 80, if we have the strength"~Psalm 90:10

We presently inhabit a really toxic enviroment, coupled with our sedentary lifestyles that i have a really hard time believing we "have it better" than the ancients.

Agreed. When i made my first comment on the giants topic, i wondered to myself if the people who perpetuate this theory aren't inadvertently promoting evolution or even sinister things like cross-species relations.
Man was created "a little lower than the angels"(Psalm 8:5). He can no more procreate with beings of a "higher order" anymore than he would with lower creatures, put under his dominion. People engage in bestial acts all the time and no one has ever seen offspring naturally arise from such acts. Now, someone could go to the lab and splice genes to create chimeras but that isn't the same thing as "sons of God married the daughters of Men to produce giants". This theory isn't helped by the fact that antiquity boasted of giant plants and animals. Were gigantic fauna and flora because of marriage too? The people who hold to the marriage theory avoid this question because they cannot account for the existence of giant plants and animals.

Our diets now cause people to grow taller on average, that and the antibiotics and steroids found in food cause the same. Look at the average height of Asian people who grow up here in America, or even Latinos compared to those who grow up in Latin America. Its one reason why we're seeing children reach puberty at earlier ages.

 

[Bubbajay]

Hopefully we'll all be long dead before that day arrives. ;-)



No worries.

Figurative, yes-- we aren't grasshoppers... but the comparison suggests they attributed a "godlike" presence to the nephilim (and to their descendants), I imagine due to their stature-- and maybe outright meanness. The concordance applies the same description to both verses-- simile of insignificance.*
Both verses imply an ability to possibly crush a person like an insect-- * a simile also used by Geordie Rose to describe his "Kindred" project, now that I think of it.

Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up.

This is not, however, the hill I'm willing to die on, since canon doesn't provide something more concrete, to my knowledge. That doesn't mean I refuse to believe it could be possible, though.

Not sure if you saw this, above:

Spoiler: Flood

"The fact that God allowed it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights leads me to believe their were giants in a more literal sense.

It would not take that big of a flood to drown a 7-10 foot human. The waters rose up high enough to cover the mountains so as far as I am concerned it was necessary to kill off some incredibly tall humans..."

This interests me, though-- the root word for Nephilim does not mean giant-- it means fallen. They knew that, but Nephilim is still translated a race of giants. If they exceeded 12ft (Og of Bashan), it makes sense it would have been in the antediluvian world.
-

It also says they were strong as oaks. Obviously figurative in description .......Amos 2:9 Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit from above, and his roots from beneath

 

[elsbet]

It also says they were strong as oaks. Obviously figurative in description .......Amos 2:9 Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit from above, and his roots from beneath

... which I already posted.

Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up.

This is not, however, the hill I'm willing to die on, since canon doesn't provide something more concrete, to my knowledge. That doesn't mean I refuse to believe it could be possible, though.

Not sure if you saw this, above:

Spoiler: Flood

"The fact that God allowed it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights leads me to believe their were giants in a more literal sense.

It would not take that big of a flood to drown a 7-10 foot human. The waters rose up high enough to cover the mountains so as far as I am concerned it was necessary to kill off some incredibly tall humans..."

This interests me, though-- the root word for Nephilim does not mean giant-- it means fallen. They knew that, but Nephilim is still translated a race of giants. If they exceeded 12ft (Og of Bashan), it makes sense it would have been in the antediluvian world.
-

-------
@Karlysymon
This isn't the one I was after... I can't remember the channel. I do remember thinking the video below was very similar though in its documentation of findings in America c. 1800s - early 1900s.

And Geordie Rose on Kindred-- which everyone should watch--> go straight to the 6:30 mark. He only speaks for a few minutes after that-- the rest is questions from the audience.

 

[Bubbajay]

... which I already posted.


-------
@Karlysymon
This isn't the one I was after... I can't remember the channel. I do remember thinking the video below was very similar though in its documentation of findings in America c. 1800s - early 1900s.

And Geordie Rose on Kindred-- which everyone should watch--> go straight to the 6:30 mark. He only speaks for a few minutes after that-- the rest is questions from the audience.

You didn't post the verse. You just said that Amos stated he was like a cedar. Finishing the verse where it states he was strong as an oak puts the figurative speech into focus. He didn't mean he was literally as tall as a cedar like you seem to insinuate.

Another example would be that the Bible mentions "the four corners of the earth". It doesn't mean the earth is flat and square like some flat earthers claim. I'm not saying you're a flat earther, but giving another example of figurative speech in the bible.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@elsbet

I watched “Transcendence” a few weeks ago, not sure if you’ve ever seen it but it echoes some of Geordie Rose’s observations….

I said I wouldn’t speculate, but you’ve got me thinking now…

I think those who believe in evolution are uniquely vulnerable to the allure of transhumanism. The Nephilim were “enhanced” by their hybrid nature, and I suspect that the original desire to be “as gods” will draw many to accept an “enhancement” that would preclude them from salvation by willingly and rebelliously reaching for digitally mediated godhood themselves. I therefore believe that the real “mark of the beast” will be a digital/genetic upgrade that will be provided by newly arrived demonic “gods” (as played out recently in Marvel’s “Eternals”) who arrive to elevate us to their status.

Those taking the mark will be in the same position as the Nephilim tribes that Joshua and Caleb were sent in to Canaan to destroy. Additionally, they will become part of the “beast system” where the image of the beast may be a global AI into which the “upgraded” are integrated, itself literally possessed by Satan. In that way, the AI gives Satan an echo of the attributes of God in a terrestrial form of omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.

From the perspective of this world, he will appear as God and demand worship as such.
Some people are inferring that the Covid-19 jab is synonymous with Revelation 13, but I have reservations with this, especially since tptb seem to “want” a certain segment of the population (I.e. Christians) to come to that conclusion.

I speculated a while back on how the present scenario could be used to pave the way for an endgame (at some future point)…

 

[Bubbajay]

@elsbet

I watched “Transcendence” a few weeks ago, not sure if you’ve ever seen it but it echoes some of Geordie Rose’s observations….

I said I wouldn’t speculate, but you’ve got me thinking now…

I think those who believe in evolution are uniquely vulnerable to the allure of transhumanism. The Nephilim were “enhanced” by their hybrid nature, and I suspect that the original desire to be “as gods” will draw many to accept an “enhancement” that would preclude them from salvation by willingly and rebelliously reaching for digitally mediated godhood themselves. I therefore believe that the real “mark of the beast” will be a digital/genetic upgrade that will be provided by newly arrived demonic “gods” (as played out recently in Marvel’s “Eternals”) who arrive to elevate us to their status.

Those taking the mark will be in the same position as the Nephilim tribes that Joshua and Caleb were sent in to Canaan to destroy. Additionally, they will become part of the “beast system” where the image of the beast may be a global AI into which the “upgraded” are integrated, itself literally possessed by Satan. In that way, the AI gives Satan an echo of the attributes of God in a terrestrial form of omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.

From the perspective of this world, he will appear as God and demand worship as such.
Some people are inferring that the Covid-19 jab is synonymous with Revelation 13, but I have reservations with this, especially since tptb seem to “want” a certain segment of the population (I.e. Christians) to come to that conclusion.

I speculated a while back on how the present scenario could be used to pave the way for an endgame (at some future point)…

That's really far out there. I can't understand how you can come to that conclusion based only on two verses that the KJV translators correctly translated as giants. Nephillim is not found in the original English bibles.

I believe the mark of the beast is nothing more than an implanted microchip (or something similar) that's hold a persons complete records and banking information. This will be needed to become part of a "new" society, probably after a major catastrophe like a world war, pestilence, or complete world economic crash. The only ones who receive the mark are those who have to purposefully worship the beast or his image (tv or internet). While I do believe transhumanism is a goal, but its more like a dream and very far off. I do not believe the Covid vax is the mark, but its certainly being used to gauge the publics reactions to mandated laws that involve people bodies and personal life. Its psychological warfare to condition society for the coming mark that could be 10 years from now or 200 years from now. Who knows? By the current public reactions they have quite a ways to go, unless the ones who deny it are all slaughtered as the bible states. Just my opinions.

The whole idea of the biblical giants being called fallen angels is completely false doctrine. God has never called an angel his son as Hebrews states, so the fallen angels mating with human woman is completely bogus.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The whole idea of the biblical giants being called fallen angels is completely false doctrine.

Jude 6

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day…

What did they do which was so very bad that they were reserved in everlasting chains??

I have to ask, if the mark was merely an RFID, why would that permanently exclude the recipients from salvation, be linked to worship of Satan and prevent them from dying?

 

[Bubbajay]

They rebelled. It seems they decided to go against God and his Word. I believe we should get our ideas and doctrine from the bible only. There's nothing wrong with meditating (thinking) about certain verses and what they mean, but to get conclusions from extra biblical sources should be avoided. I'm a bible only type of person, and if an idea or doctrine can't be proven from the bible then its wrong. Just my opinions.

The bible says people have to worship the anti Christ before they can receive the mark. The word "anti" in the bible doesn't mean "against", it means " in place of". So the person who will mandate the mark will claim to be Jesus or someone who will claim to fill his shoes so to speak. I'm sure he will also claim to be every awaited holy person from every religion. Worshipping him will exclude a person from salvation. Only those who are not saved will worship him anyways.

I'm not calling you a false Christian or slandering you in any way, so please don't take it as such. I'm just pointing out that we should all just stick to the bible only.

 

[Bubbajay]

They rebelled. It seems they decided to go against God and his Word. I believe we should get our ideas and doctrine from the bible only. There's nothing wrong with meditating (thinking) about certain verses and what they mean, but to get conclusions from extra biblical sources should be avoided. I'm a bible only type of person, and if an idea or doctrine can't be proven from the bible then its wrong. Just my opinions.

The bible says people have to worship the anti Christ before they can receive the mark. The word "anti" in the bible doesn't mean "against", it means " in place of". So the person who will mandate the mark will claim to be Jesus or someone who will claim to fill his shoes so to speak. I'm sure he will also claim to be every awaited holy person from every religion. Worshipping him will exclude a person from salvation. Only those who are not saved will worship him anyways.

I'm not calling you a false Christian or slandering you in any way, so please don't take it as such. I'm just pointing out that we should all just stick to the bible only.

I edited the comment I accidentally put God instead of they.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

They rebelled. It seems they decided to go against God and his Word. I believe we should get our ideas and doctrine from the bible only. There's nothing wrong with meditating (thinking) about certain verses and what they mean, but to get conclusions from extra biblical sources should be avoided. I'm a bible only type of person, and if an idea or doctrine can't be proven from the bible then its wrong. Just my opinions.

The bible says people have to worship the anti Christ before they can receive the mark. The word "anti" in the bible doesn't mean "against", it means " in place of". So the person who will mandate the mark will claim to be Jesus or someone who will claim to fill his shoes so to speak. I'm sure he will also claim to be every awaited holy person from every religion. Worshipping him will exclude a person from salvation. Only those who are not saved will worship him anyways.

I'm not calling you a false Christian or slandering you in any way, so please don't take it as such. I'm just pointing out that we should all just stick to the bible only.

I agree with much of what you say as well. It was the transcendence thing that has been playing on my mind since I watched the film. What does the word mean, what kind of sin brings the ultimate and irrevocable judgement of God?

Isaiah 14​

​

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!​

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:​

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.​

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.​

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;​

I mention the above because I was watching a response to Transcendence from an eastern-minded individual…

“Transcendence” breaks down to “go beyond” and “climb”. I may be completely wrong but I have long held the view that the taking of the mark will be linked not just to a submission to global technocracy but to an invitation to join Satan in his original and unforgivable sin.

The ideas above are my pure speculation only. I don’t make any special claims into insight other than that of a literary minded person who can spot the strands of a narrative coming together.

 

[Maldarker]

Samuel 17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.

An old testament cubit was roughly 18 inches long and a span half that. 6x18=108. 108+9=118. Goliath was 118 inches tall. 118÷12=9.83. So Goliath was 9.83 feet tall. The tallest recorded man in modern history was Robert Wadlow who was 8ft 11inches tall, so Goliath wasn't even a foot taller than him.

those where the descendents of the rephaim

 

[Maldarker]

 

[elsbet]

You just said that Amos stated he was like a cedar. Finishing the verse where it states he was strong as an oak.

I'm afraid you're wrong, again-- I included that, too.

I also covered the figurative aspect and further qualified the point being made by the author.

Spoiler

elsbet-already said:​

"Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up"​

You haven't read the post.
And you're in no position to lecture me. If this exchange is any indication of your "study" habits, you are missing a significant amount of information.

​

 

[Bubbajay]

Hopefully we'll all be long dead before that day arrives. ;-)



No worries.

Figurative, yes-- we aren't grasshoppers... but the comparison suggests they attributed a "godlike" presence to the nephilim (and to their descendants), I imagine due to their stature-- and maybe outright meanness. The concordance applies the same description to both verses-- simile of insignificance.*
Both verses imply an ability to possibly crush a person like an insect-- * a simile also used by Geordie Rose to describe his "Kindred" project, now that I think of it.

Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up.

This is not, however, the hill I'm willing to die on, since canon doesn't provide something more concrete, to my knowledge. That doesn't mean I refuse to believe it could be possible, though.

Not sure if you saw this, above:

Spoiler: Flood

"The fact that God allowed it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights leads me to believe their were giants in a more literal sense.

It would not take that big of a flood to drown a 7-10 foot human. The waters rose up high enough to cover the mountains so as far as I am concerned it was necessary to kill off some incredibly tall humans..."

This interests me, though-- the root word for Nephilim does not mean giant-- it means fallen. They knew that, but Nephilim is still translated a race of giants. If they exceeded 12ft (Og of Bashan), it makes sense it would have been in the antediluvian world.
-

I see it now. Sorry. So many posts its hard to keep up. Lol

 

[Bubbajay]

I'm afraid you're wrong, again-- I included that, too.

I also covered the figurative aspect and further qualified the point being made by the author.

Spoiler

elsbet-already said:​

"Another reference to their size is in Amos--> their height is like that of the cedars, which start around 40 ft-- and their strength, as an oak. Tall and immovable, yes... but that was to illustrate also (if not primarily) their complete destruction-- Anak, I believe--by God, from the root up"​

You haven't read the post.
And you're in no position to lecture me. If this exchange is any indication of your "study" habits, you are missing a significant amount of information.

​

not sure how me missing a sentence in one of your posts proves nephillim angel/human hybrids exits, but OK

Also how does normal humans looking small to giants give them "godlike" attributes? Where did you "study" this from?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sextus Julius Africanus (160-240 AD)

He is perhaps the first to radically reinterpret and misinterpret the Genesis 6 affair as pertaining to what has come to be known as the Sethiteview which claims that the “sons of God” are the godly lineage of Seth (why only males and why all godly?) and the “daughters of men” are the ungodly lineage of Cain (why only females and why all ungodly?).

As for example chronicled in section II of The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus, he wrote:

When men multiplied on the earth, the angels of heaven came together with the daughters of men. In some copies I found “the sons of God.” What is meant by the Spirit, in my opinion, is that the descendants of Seth are called the sons of God on account of the righteous men and patriarchs who have sprung from him, even down to the Saviour Himself; but that the descendants of Cain are named the seed of men, as having nothing divine in them, on account of the wickedness of their race and the inequality of their nature, being a mixed people, and having stirred the indignation of God.

At this point, a footnote states, “The text here is manifestly corrupt: ἐπιμιχθέντων αὐτῶν, τὴν ἀγανάκτησιν ποιήσασθαι τὸν Θεόν” which means words to the effect of “To those who have done it, to the restoration of God.”

In any case, note that Julius Africanus’ claims are “in my opinion” and he provides no biblical backing for his opinion that from the descendants of Seth, apparently exclusively, righteous men and patriarchs sprung but the descendants of Cain, apparently exclusively, have nothing divine in them. In fact, we do not know that they, in general and as a lineage “stirred the indignation of God” but know only that Cain did so.

Julius Africanus ends this section thusly:

But if it is thought that these refer to angels, we must take them to be those who deal with magic and jugglery, who taught the women the motions of the stars and the knowledge of things celestial, by whose power they conceived the giants as their children, by whom wickedness came to its height on the earth, until God decreed that the whole race of the living should perish in their impiety by the deluge.

Thus, he was clearly aware of the common understanding of Genesis 6 and even touches upon extra biblical claims about the actions of these Angels as the Bible does not relate what they taught but apocryphal works, such as the Book of Enoch do.

Note just how the times, and personal opinions, have changed to the extent that Africanus can, in his time, note that “it is thought that these refer to angels” but in 1831 AD Adam Clarke (Commentary on the Bible) notes that, in his time, “there is a distinction made here between men and those called the sons of God, it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended. The first were mere men, such as fallen nature may produce, degenerate sons of a degenerate father, governed by the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life. The others were sons of God, not angels, as some have dreamed, but such as were, according to our Lord’s doctrine, born again, born from above.” Clarke offers no elucidating data from the Bible’s contents, concepts and contexts but merely refers to the original and thus ancient interpretation as being something dreamed up.