The seemingly stark contrast between the OT and NT God explained...

[Yahda]

No,

You fail to acknowledge and grasp the absolute and unfathomable holiness of God. One sin and act of disobedience brought DEATH unto the whole human race as the world was SEPARATED from God for ALL TIME. That is just ONE sin and it was done in complete ignorance. The ignorance and intent of Eve did not matter, it brought IMMEDIATE judgment and death. Samson perished just by losing his hair and falling innocent victim to a woman in hiis weakness! One Israelite accidentally touched the ark of the covenant while transporting it and fell over dead. Gehazi broke out in complete leprosy, because of acting out of presumption and ignorance. The angel of the lord killed thousands of soldiers in the Israeli army, because they did not trust in God by seeking to take consensus and number all the able body soliders that could fight. They did it in ignorance and by counting the soliders they sinned against God by relying on their strength and not his! One small sin requires a living breathing animal to be put to death as an atonement! By one sin MOSES could not enter into the promised land despite him serving and being faithful to God all throughout his years! This is the holiness of God. This is the severity of even the most minor of sins. You would refer to this as OCD? No, this is the holiness of God. Your intentions and ignorance does not matter as it did not matter for Eve and the rest of the world that was separated from God. Sin is sin. If you sin you are a lawbreaker and condemned to death just as Adam and Eve were...

You would acquit and annul the smallest commandments of the law and say things like your not perfect to justify yourself and your small sins before God. You would downplay the law so u can appear as righteous.

This is weighing your deeds with a false weight and its revealed through scripture that God detests false balances and weights...

Prov 20:8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
Prov 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Prov 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.

You are commanded to keep the WHOLE LAW and perform ALL that which is required without excuse.

Deut 27:26 Cursed [be] he that confirmeth not [all] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Yet you would stand before God and make light of your sins and not count them as what they truly are which are acts of breaking the law. You are a lawbreaker and cannot stand before God and say you are pure from your sin. You are a transgressor of the law and your minor sins are transgressions of the law. If Moses couldn't enter into the promised land because of committing a seemingly small sin in ignorance what hope do you think you have of God not counting your small slip ups cause of your imperfections as sin??

I don’t think people understand what a God is. Even when Moses and the people went upon the mountain they had to fast for three days, wear appropriate attire, shave, remove their shoes, etc....They were given strict instructions.

You have to come correct before you come in the presence of The Most High God. This is God and you will RESPECT Him. If not it can cause you your life. THIS IS GOD we are talking about.

That is why once everything is restored Israel WILL go through the fire. They will be cleansed and purified, and the law will be put within as told in Ezekiel. It’s God’s way or no way. You don’t, or WON’T come in the presence of the Most Holy One any kind of old way. He does not play that.

 

[Lyfe]

I don’t think people understand what a God is. Even when Moses and the people went upon the mountain they had to fast for three days, wear appropriate attire, shave, remove their shoes, etc....They were given strict instructions.

You have to come correct before you come in the presence of The Most High God. This is God and you will RESPECT Him. If not it can cause you your life. THIS IS GOD we are talking about.

That is why once everything is restored Israel WILL go through the fire. They will be cleansed and purified, and the law will be put within as told in Ezekiel. It’s God’s way or no way. You don’t, or WON’T come in the presence of the Most Holy one any kind of old way.

Only the high priests could enter into the holy of holies and that was once a year on the day of atonement. The holy of holies was symbolic and a foreshadow of the mercy seat and direct throne of God. If they had sin in their heart and life they fell over dead and had to be pulled out with a rope. This is the holiness of God. There are no minor sins in the eyes of the ancient of days which is why anyone who claims they keep the law doesn't comprehend their own sinfulness in the light of an infinitely all knowing all powerful uncorruptable holy God. I tell anyone who claims they keep the law to get on their knees and go before God to ask him all the times they sinned in ignorance just in that day alone. If God did then they would be overwhelmed to how big of a sinner they still are. It would be like getting hit with an atom bomb.

 

[Yahda]

Only the high priests could enter into the holy of holies and that was once a year on the day of atonement. The holy of holies was symbolic and a foreshadow of the mercy seat and direct throne of God. If they had sin in their heart and life they fell over dead and had to be pulled out with a rope. This is the holiness of God. There are no minor sins in the eyes of the ancient of days which is why anyone who claims they keep the law doesn't comprehend their own sinfulness in the light of an infinitely all knowing all powerful uncorruptable holy God. I tell anyone who claims they keep the law to get on their knees and go before God to ask him all the times they sinned in ignorance just in that day alone. If God did then they would be overwhelmed to how big of a sinner they still are. It would be like getting hit with an atom bomb.

The holy of holies also know as the congregation.

 

[Lisa]

The holy of holies also know as the congregation.

‭‭2 Chronicles‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭
Now he made the room of the holy of holies: its length across the width of the house was twenty cubits, and its width was twenty cubits; and he overlaid it with fine gold, amounting to 600 talents.

2 Chronicles 3:8 Now he made the room of the holy of holies: its length across the width of the house was twenty cubits, and its width was twenty cubits; and he overlaid it with fine gold, amounting to 600 talents. | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now

Now he made the room of the holy of holies: its length across the width of the house was twenty cubits, and its width was twenty cubits; and he overlaid it with fine gold, amounting to 600 talents.

www.bible.com

 

[Resistor]

No,

You fail to acknowledge and grasp the absolute and unfathomable holiness of God. One sin and act of disobedience brought DEATH unto the whole human race as the world was SEPARATED from God for ALL TIME. That is just ONE sin and it was done in complete ignorance. The ignorance and intent of Eve did not matter, it brought IMMEDIATE judgment and death. Samson perished just by losing his hair and falling innocent victim to a woman in hiis weakness! One Israelite accidentally touched the ark of the covenant while transporting it and fell over dead. Gehazi broke out in complete leprosy, because of acting out of presumption and ignorance. The angel of the lord killed thousands of soldiers in the Israeli army, because they did not trust in God by seeking to take consensus and number all the able body soliders that could fight. They did it in ignorance and by counting the soliders they sinned against God by relying on their strength and not his! One small sin requires a living breathing animal to be put to death as an atonement! By one sin MOSES could not enter into the promised land despite him serving and being faithful to God all throughout his years! This is the holiness of God. This is the severity of even the most minor of sins. You would refer to this as OCD? No, this is the holiness of God. Your intentions and ignorance does not matter as it did not matter for Eve and the rest of the world that was separated from God. Sin is sin. If you sin you are a lawbreaker and condemned to death just as Adam and Eve were...

You would acquit and annul the smallest commandments of the law and say things like your not perfect to justify yourself and your small sins before God. You would downplay the law so u can appear as righteous.

This is weighing your deeds with a false weight and its revealed through scripture that God detests false balances and weights...

Prov 20:8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
Prov 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Prov 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.

You are commanded to keep the WHOLE LAW and perform ALL that which is required without excuse.

Deut 27:26 Cursed [be] he that confirmeth not [all] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Yet you would stand before God and make light of your sins and not count them as what they truly are which are acts of breaking the law. You are a lawbreaker and cannot stand before God and say you are pure from your sin. You are a transgressor of the law and your minor sins are transgressions of the law. If Moses couldn't enter into the promised land because of committing a seemingly small sin in ignorance what hope do you think you have of God not counting your small slip ups cause of your imperfections as sin??

No, you are contradicting the Torah itself, you are calling God a liar (I don't take too kindly to that).

I am disappointing in you, because all you do in these discussions is repeat things you've heard, not anything from actual knowledge of the scriptures. What you say runs contrary to everything in the Tanakh and Jesus' own words, it is the worst kind of foolish.

As the word of God says:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you.
You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today.
Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors,
if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

- Deuteronomy 30:6-14

 

[Resistor]

Think resistor is telling porky pies in this thread abit like the man in luke 18

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.
Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!


I LOVE this passage, because we see Jesus would ask questions that he already knew the answer too, to call people out on there hypocrisy, the man claimed Jesus was good, just as he thought he himself was good. Jesus was alluding to himself being God, whilst also pointing out that he had overstated his own goodness.

See you keep going on about your intent of breaking the law? What is your intent of keeping the law, this mans intent in the passage was self righteousness. How did he acquire his wealth? Wealth is not obtained usually by good means, as that is disproportionate and to horde it is even less, meaning this man surely did not give enough. And yet that is the subtext. This man has clung to wealth over God. If you were truly honest with yourself im sure, there are things in your life of the same nature.

The Lord knows the truth - MARA NATHA!

LOL! in your quoted passage Jesus literally replies to a question about eternal life with following the commandments. Fail
Then what Jesus goes on to say about giving to the poor etc, itself is already in the book of Deuteronomy.

 

[Resistor]

“If there is among you a poor man, one of your brethren, in any of your towns within your land which YHWH your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother,
but you shall open your hand to him, and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.
Take heed lest there be a base thought in your heart, and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye be hostile to your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to YHWH against you, and it be sin in you.
You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him; because for this YHWH your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake.
For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in the land.

- Deuteronomy 15:7-11


There you

 

[Resistor]

But I do wonder, has Seekinheart sold everything he has? or does he still have possessions? what about Lyfe? or are they just hypocrites who don't practice what they preach?

It's obvious that one single comment of Jesus (selling all your possessions, literally all of them) is something 99% of Christians don't do at all, let alone Jews or any other religious group. If you Christians think you've abrogated God's guidance (Torah), then you sure as hell haven't changed it to something "more followable" in your own words.

 

[Artful Revealer]

“If there is among you a poor man, one of your brethren, in any of your towns within your land which YHWH your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother,
but you shall open your hand to him, and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.
Take heed lest there be a base thought in your heart, and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye be hostile to your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to YHWH against you, and it be sin in you.
You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him; because for this YHWH your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake.
For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in the land.

- Deuteronomy 15:7-11


There you

This "charity" is only ordained of Israelites towards other .... wait for it .... Israelites.

 

[Resistor]

This "charity" is only ordained of Israelites towards other .... wait for it .... Israelites.

Not true at all, but nice try

 

[Lyfe]

But I do wonder, has Seekinheart sold everything he has? or does he still have possessions? what about Lyfe? or are they just hypocrites who don't practice what they preach?

It's obvious that one single comment of Jesus (selling all your possessions, literally all of them) is something 99% of Christians don't do at all, let alone Jews or any other religious group. If you Christians think you've abrogated God's guidance (Torah), then you sure as hell haven't changed it to something "more followable" in your own words.

...except I or any other Christian here is not claiming to be perfect or without sin. You on the other hand contend to keep the law and all its precepts. If you kept the law that means you could stand before God right now and he would have absolutely nothing that he could point out in your life that is sin or displeasing to him, it means you have reached perfection. It means you have not sinned once today in thought, omission, or deed. It means you have loved God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength at all times in every moment today without fail, and that you have loved your neighbor as yourself in every moment without fail. This is the OT law as I have showed you... Read the book of proverbs and you can see everything God hates, yet to practice and entertain or be guilty of these things and doing these things is to fail to love God with all your heart and thus an act of breaking the law. Evil thoughts are an abomination to God and to entertain them would be to not love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. That means you have not entertained any evil thought today in the slightest.

 

[lightseeker]

LOL! in your quoted passage Jesus literally replies to a question about eternal life with following the commandments. Fail
Then what Jesus goes on to say about giving to the poor etc, itself is already in the book of Deuteronomy.

What that conversation shows is a soul asking Jesus, master, I have kept all the commandments, yet my soul is still longing. Jesus gives him the way to transcend the law, not abolish it, but go beyond. He says I honour my parente, don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t kill etc, but there is still that something in my soul which yearns. The laws allow me to walk without transgressing, but not to live by grace. Jesus tells him, to gain that more, give up all attachment to worldly things, live only by faith, hope and love. Does one HAVE to do that by law? No. One can follow the laws and live a life pleasing to God. But to gain the wisdom and faith that Christ taught? To “take no thought for your life” and “do not resist evil”, one needs a tremendous living faith, which he indicated to that man. This exemplifies the difference between the old and new testaments. Not a change of laws, but a deepening of them, an incarnation of them in the soul. Laws for developing the soul and not just the body.

 

[Resistor]

...except I or any other Christian here is not claiming to be perfect or without sin. You on the other hand contend to keep the law and all its precepts. If you kept the law that means you could stand before God right now and he would have absolutely nothing that he could point out in your life that is sin or displeasing to him, it means you have reached perfection. It means you have not sinned once today in thought, omission, or deed. It means you have loved God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength at all times in every moment today without fail, and that you have loved your neighbor as yourself in every moment without fail. This is the OT law as I have showed you... Read the book of proverbs and you can see everything God hates, yet to practice and entertain or be guilty of these things and doing these things is to fail to love God with all your heart and thus an act of breaking the law. Evil thoughts are an abomination to God and to entertain them would be to not love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. That means you have not entertained any evil thought today in the slightest.

Keep lying to yourself and repeating what you've been told.

...except I or any other Christian here is not claiming to be perfect or without sin.

Nobody claims to be sinless, including Jesus.

Mate, all you are continuing to do here is strawman and berate the Torah with your foul mouth. Your views are so misinformed.
You repeat to me what I already know most Christians (via Paul's writings to gentiles) believe about the Torah, this is not what is being asked here. You can't even give internal proof that God gave us an impossible law to follow, on the contrary I've given you evidence this it's not the case.

And again, being imperfect and making mistakes does not equal the Torah being impossible to follow. Non-sequitor and strawman of what these ideas mean.
I repeat: DOES NOT EQUAL.

 

[Resistor]

What that conversation shows is a soul asking Jesus, master, I have kept all the commandments, yet my soul is still longing. Jesus gives him the way to transcend the law, not abolish it, but go beyond. He says I honour my parente, don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t kill etc, but there is still that something in my soul which yearns. The laws allow me to walk without transgressing, but not to live by grace. Jesus tells him, to gain that more, give up all attachment to worldly things, live only by faith, hope and love. Does one HAVE to do that by law? No. One can follow the laws and live a life pleasing to God. But to gain the wisdom and faith that Christ taught? To “take no thought for your life” and “do not resist evil”, one needs a tremendous living faith, which he indicated to that man. This exemplifies the difference between the old and new testaments. Not a change of laws, but a deepening of them, an incarnation of them in the soul. Laws for developing the soul and not just the body.

No, not at all.

Jesus gives him the way to transcend the law, not abolish it

Nope, Jesus gives us a demonstration of how we are to understand the Torah and put it into practice, and he did excel at it, despite being a false messiah (at best he was a Tzadik, nothing more).

 

[Resistor]

What that conversation shows is a soul asking Jesus, master, I have kept all the commandments, yet my soul is still longing. Jesus gives him the way to transcend the law, not abolish it, but go beyond. He says I honour my parente, don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t kill etc, but there is still that something in my soul which yearns. The laws allow me to walk without transgressing, but not to live by grace. Jesus tells him, to gain that more, give up all attachment to worldly things, live only by faith, hope and love. Does one HAVE to do that by law? No. One can follow the laws and live a life pleasing to God. But to gain the wisdom and faith that Christ taught? To “take no thought for your life” and “do not resist evil”, one needs a tremendous living faith, which he indicated to that man. This exemplifies the difference between the old and new testaments. Not a change of laws, but a deepening of them, an incarnation of them in the soul. Laws for developing the soul and not just the body.

Everything in Torah is deeply spiritual, not material. I am unimpressed by how much you try to shit on it with your vile words.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Not true at all, but nice try

You lyin' or do you just not know?

"Brothers" refers to Israelites. Non-Israelites are called "foreigners". Read Deuteronomy 15 from 15:1 onwards if you're in doubt.

 

[Resistor]

You lyin' or do you just not know?

"Brother" refers to Israelites. Non-Israelites are called "foreigners". Read Deuteronomy 15 from 15:1 onwards if you're in doubt.

That is very much not the case, you've clearly never read that passage before
I am not surprised by your ignorance, you seem to enjoy it.

 

[Resistor]

As Deuteronomy 10:19 says:

And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

 

[lightseeker]

Everything in Torah is deeply spiritual, not material. I am unimpressed by how much you try to shit on it with your vile words.

I’m not “shitting on“ anything chill out, I am talking about that scripture. Do you agree if the religion is ”do not kill, do not steal, do not lie” these are all physical things. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Those are the laws to live in balance in the physical world. Certainly in deeper Judaism and Kabbalah they say “any wrong thought or fantasy is a lie”, “all anger is to kill”, which would be deeper than physicality. But that is the problem that was facing those people. Do you reach God by not killing? Or do you simply not transgress? Is the soul developed by not stealing? That is what that man was asking Jesus, because he didn’t feel like it was. So Jesus told him, give up everything in the world and follow me, my path. That is deeper. Not only does it fulfill the old law, because giving up everything you won’t steal, it also fulfills a transcendent law, the law of sacrifice, death of the self, living only in faith.

 

[pescatarian09]

You fail to acknowledge and grasp the absolute and unfathomable holiness of God. One sin and act of disobedience brought DEATH unto the whole human race as the world was SEPARATED from God for ALL TIME. That is just ONE sin and it was done in complete ignorance. The ignorance and intent of Eve did not matter, it brought IMMEDIATE judgment and death.

[...] Your intentions and ignorance does not matter as it did not matter for Eve and the rest of the world that was separated from God. Sin is sin. If you sin you are a lawbreaker and condemned to death just as Adam and Eve were...

The Story of Adam (part 1 of 5): The First Man

The thought provoking story of Adam described with references from the Divine Books.

www.islamreligion.com

Spoiler: The story of Adam and Eve in the Quran

-- Man was intended to dwell on Earth, before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. "And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not." (Quran, 2:30)
-- God indicates that the unique thing about man, out of all His other creation, is that he can learn. "He taught Adam all the names of everything." (Quran, 2:31) Although man was created weak and subject to desires, he can learn from his mistakes.
-- "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the dhalimin (wrong doers)." (Quran, 2:35)
-- “So he (Satan) misled them with deception.” (Quran, 7:22)
-- Adam and Eve both bore equal responsibility for their eating of the tree. Eve did not tempt Adam; she was not the weaker of the two.
-- Their doing so was a mistake. They had not hitherto experienced the cunning deceptions of Satan. The sin, and the ensuing consequence served as an important lesson to all mankind about Satan's tricks and illusions, and about the consequences of sin. Satan was firmly established in this way as a clear enemy to humankind. "Children of Adam, did We not command you not to worship satan. He was your sworn enemy." (Quran 36:60)
-- The descendants of Adam do not bear the sin of their forefather. They are not punished for it. Every human is born free of sin. "No bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden." (Quran, 35:18)
-- God told Adam and Eve that heaven was no longer to be their abode. Their home was now Earth, for a fixed time. “Get you down (upon the earth), all of you together, from Paradise, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then, if there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (Quran, 20:123)
-- Adam and Eve repented sincerely after their sin. God forgave them in His infinite mercy. The prayer that God gave them with which they could ask for forgiveness: “Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers.” (Quran, 7:23) We may also use the same prayer to ask God to forgive us.
-- Adam and Eve's descent to Earth was not one of humiliation or degradation.
-- Earth is not our true home. We are here only for a fixed time. We will return to God in the hereafter, and go either to heaven or to hell. Heaven is for those who follow the guidance that God sends to Earth, and submit to God humbly.
-- "O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not." (Quran, 7:27)
-- The battle between good and evil continues on Earth. Each man is responsible for his own actions.