The dating of the Book of Daniel

[rainerann]

Personally, I have never gone with the interpretation of Daniel 9 that you are using, but it doesn’t matter because I already specifically said, “The prophecy is still there and valid even when the books are separated according to the language they are written in.” When I was forming a conclusion. It is clear you aren’t paying attention.

So no it is not so impressive to me that you keep bringing your interpretation of Daniel 9 up.

to be more concise in what I was saying. The book of Daniel is not linear. The prophecy that you are referring to is part of a fragment that exists separately from another portion of the book. It is possible different people wrote them and that there is more that is unknown about this subject. Does that mean they aren’t prophecy? No. Does that meant they aren’t accurate? No.

if that is all you care about fine, but it is not going to create the best case to argue with someone who doesn’t feel the same when there are obvious reasons to believe that the way the text is strung together, cannot be considered an accurate historical account of the person of Daniel.

you’re hyper focused on the prophecy. i would imagine that this is because of personal interest and that’s fine, but you’re missing the discussion that surrounds the subject of the dating of the book of daniel even though you are claiming to be introducing it.

 

[A Freeman]

Perhaps it's been overlooked that Daniel 2 doesn't just predict the rise and fall of the Babylonian Empire (its fall), the Greek Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire and the Roman Empire; it also predicts the rise of a 5th Kingdom/Empire during the latter days, very specifically in the days of these kings/popes (Rev. 17:12-14).

So even if someone were to believe the nonsense that the Book of Daniel was written much later than it was, one has to wonder how it so accurately predicted the rise of the British Empire, who are the true people Israel.

Daniel 2:26-45
2:26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise [men], the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king;
2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LATTER DAYS. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came [into thy mind] upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and He that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any one else, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
2:32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
2:34 Thou sawest till that a Stone was cut out without hands (Ps. 118:22), which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the "Stone" that smote the image became a great "mountain" (government), and FILLED THE WHOLE EARTH.
2:36 This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath He given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold (the Babylonian Empire).
2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee (Cyrus and the Medo-Persian Empire), and another third kingdom of brass (Alexander the Great's Greek Empire), which shall bear rule over all the earth.
2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron (the Roman Empire): forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided (into the Eastern and Western Roman Empires); but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay (Rev. 13:1; 17:12), [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
2:44 And in the days of these kings (Rev. 17:12-14) shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and THE KINGDOM SHALL NOT BE LEFT TO OTHER PEOPLE, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the "Stone" was cut out of the "mountain" without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
2:46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

Please note well that this final “Stone” KINGDOM was prophesied to be set up during the latter days by God, using His PEOPLE Israel rather than another nation or people (like the previous empires). That way the Kingdom and its Crown and Throne can be GIVEN to Shiloh/Christ during His Second Coming.

There is only ONE Kingdom that has spanned the globe since the demise of the Roman Empire and that is “the empire on which the 'sun' never sets”: THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

Psalm 89:34-36
89:34 My Covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
89:35 Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as "the sun" before me.


The Book of Daniel even predicts the very day which Jerusalem would be liberated from Gentile Turkish-Edomite Rule by the British (Israelites): 9 December 1917.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a Time (360), Times (2 = 720), and an half (180) (1260 years in total - 9/Dec./1917 when Jerusalem was liberated from the "Treading Down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles"); and when He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of The Holy People (Israel - Gen. 48:11; 16)(Rev. 11:3; 7), all these [things] shall be finished.

On 9 December 1917, British (Israelite) troops led by Gen. Allenby liberated Jerusalem after 1260 years of Gentile Turkish Edomite rule.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Personally, I have never gone with the interpretation of Daniel 9 that you are using, but it doesn’t matter because I already specifically said, “The prophecy is still there and valid even when the books are separated according to the language they are written in.” When I was forming a conclusion. It is clear you aren’t paying attention.

So no it is not so impressive to me that you keep bringing your interpretation of Daniel 9 up.

to be more concise in what I was saying. The book of Daniel is not linear. The prophecy that you are referring to is part of a fragment that exists separately from another portion of the book. It is possible different people wrote them and that there is more that is unknown about this subject. Does that mean they aren’t prophecy? No. Does that meant they aren’t accurate? No.

if that is all you care about fine, but it is not going to create the best case to argue with someone who doesn’t feel the same when there are obvious reasons to believe that the way the text is strung together, cannot be considered an accurate historical account of the person of Daniel.

you’re hyper focused on the prophecy. i would imagine that this is because of personal interest and that’s fine, but you’re missing the discussion that surrounds the subject of the dating of the book of daniel even though you are claiming to be introducing it.

OK. I can’t expect you to give serious consideration to my point if I have not had time to give your research due time and attention.

I have studied the dating in some detail a number of years and there is a very compelling case for the claimed date. I will get back to the topic in due course.

 

[A Freeman]

Darius the Mede: A solution to his identity

[Para español haz clic aquí] For a summary of views on Darius the Mede, see the following article: The Identifications of Darius the Mede (English) | Español | Français | Português | Norsk | Kiswah…

truthonlybible.com

 

[Infinityloop]

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
I’m curious to know the Jewish understanding of Daniel 9:24-27. It seems such a clear reference to Jesus that I don’t understand how Jewish scholars can disagree. It speaks of the Messiah who will live 483 years after Daniel’s time. He will be cut off (i.e., crucified) but not for his sake (v. 26), and He will make a covenant with the many (v. 27), abolish sacrifice (v. 27), and terminate transgression (v. 24). And after his death there will be terrible destruction (vv. 26-27). This sounds exactly like Jesus dying for our sins and making a New Covenant with all of mankind, and afterwards there would be terrible calamities during the destruction of the Temple. Jesus lived precisely when Daniel was told the Messiah would be – shortly before the destruction of the Second Temple. How can the Jews not accept this? You don’t even believe the Messiah came when Daniel was told he would!
The Aish Rabbi Replies:
Thank you for raising the very important issue. You happen to be right that learned Christians often see Daniel 9, prophesying about a 490 year period (70 “weeks” of 7 years each), as perhaps the most explicit allusion to Jesus in the Torah, even more so than Isaiah 53. It seems to write explicitly that the Messiah would come before the Second Temple’s destruction and that he would die for our sins.
This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.
In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.
Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.
The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.
Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.
Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.
To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.
(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)
As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.
The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).
Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)
Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.
As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.
Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.
Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

 

[Lisa]

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
I’m curious to know the Jewish understanding of Daniel 9:24-27. It seems such a clear reference to Jesus that I don’t understand how Jewish scholars can disagree. It speaks of the Messiah who will live 483 years after Daniel’s time. He will be cut off (i.e., crucified) but not for his sake (v. 26), and He will make a covenant with the many (v. 27), abolish sacrifice (v. 27), and terminate transgression (v. 24). And after his death there will be terrible destruction (vv. 26-27). This sounds exactly like Jesus dying for our sins and making a New Covenant with all of mankind, and afterwards there would be terrible calamities during the destruction of the Temple. Jesus lived precisely when Daniel was told the Messiah would be – shortly before the destruction of the Second Temple. How can the Jews not accept this? You don’t even believe the Messiah came when Daniel was told he would!
The Aish Rabbi Replies:
Thank you for raising the very important issue. You happen to be right that learned Christians often see Daniel 9, prophesying about a 490 year period (70 “weeks” of 7 years each), as perhaps the most explicit allusion to Jesus in the Torah, even more so than Isaiah 53. It seems to write explicitly that the Messiah would come before the Second Temple’s destruction and that he would die for our sins.
This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.
In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.
Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.
The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.
Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.
Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.
To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.
(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)
As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.
The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).
Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)
Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.
As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.
Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.
Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

It’s not Jesus who makes a firm covenant with many, it’s the antichrist. In v 26 Daniel switches from Jesus to the people of the prince to come to the prince to come...the antichrist.

 

[A Freeman]

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
I’m curious to know the Jewish understanding of Daniel 9:24-27. It seems such a clear reference to Jesus that I don’t understand how Jewish scholars can disagree. It speaks of the Messiah who will live 483 years after Daniel’s time. He will be cut off (i.e., crucified) but not for his sake (v. 26), and He will make a covenant with the many (v. 27), abolish sacrifice (v. 27), and terminate transgression (v. 24). And after his death there will be terrible destruction (vv. 26-27). This sounds exactly like Jesus dying for our sins and making a New Covenant with all of mankind, and afterwards there would be terrible calamities during the destruction of the Temple. Jesus lived precisely when Daniel was told the Messiah would be – shortly before the destruction of the Second Temple. How can the Jews not accept this? You don’t even believe the Messiah came when Daniel was told he would!
The Aish Rabbi Replies:
Thank you for raising the very important issue. You happen to be right that learned Christians often see Daniel 9, prophesying about a 490 year period (70 “weeks” of 7 years each), as perhaps the most explicit allusion to Jesus in the Torah, even more so than Isaiah 53. It seems to write explicitly that the Messiah would come before the Second Temple’s destruction and that he would die for our sins.
This is a very lengthy topic, especially because those verses in Daniel are so cryptic. However, before summarizing the Jewish interpretation, I’d like to point out a few difficulties with the Christian one. First of all, the term “mashiach”, which literally means “anointed one,” is never used in the Torah in reference to the Messiah as we think of it today. That word appears 39 times in the Torah, and the intention is always for a High Priest, a King, or someone designated by God (“anointed”) for some special mission. See for example Leviticus 4:3, I Samuel 12:3, 24:6, 26:11, Psalms 20:7, Lamentations 4:20, and Isaiah 45:1.
In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer points out that in every other place where the word “mashiach” appears in the Torah, Christian Bibles interpret it accurately as “anointed one” and only the two times that it appears here do they translate it as “the Messiah” – both with the definite article “the” in front of it (which does not appear in the Hebrew), and with the word Messiah capitalized – although Hebrew has no capital letters.
Secondly, Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.
The second anointed one, who did live around the time of Jesus, does not seem to be a very righteous person. Daniel writes that he will be “cut off” (“yikarait”). Karet, which means excision, always has a negative connotation in the Torah. It is most commonly used for the punishment of excision which one incurs for the most serious transgressions.
Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.
Lastly, Christians believe that the Messiah was to be cut off in the middle of the final 7 years (the final “week” of v. 27) and at the end of that week the Temple was destined to be destroyed. But according to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified in the early 30’s C.E. which was well over the half week (24.5 years) before the Temple’s destruction in the year 70. It is also difficult to understand when to begin the count of 490 years according to Christian interpretation. Four hundred and ninety years before Jesus’s death does not seem to correspond to any significant event, making it unclear what starting point Daniel’s vision had in mind.
To begin understanding these verses according to Jewish tradition, as always, it is important to see the verses in context. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Daniel is profoundly worried about the prophecy of Jeremiah. Jeremiah foretold that Jerusalem’s destruction would last 70 years (see Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10). He thought the 70 years had come to an end already, and in fact the Babylonian Empire had recently been overtaken by the Persians, yet the return to Jerusalem had not occurred. He feared that they were not worthy of the prophesied redemption and that it was going to be delayed. He began fasting and praying, beseeching God for His forgiveness, until the angel Gabriel came to him and clarified the future events – when the Second Temple would be rebuilt and how long it would stand.
(In truth, the two 70’s of Jeremiah 25 and 29 were separate prophecies. Babylonia would fall 70 years after its ascension (25:12) – and this had occurred the year before the events of Daniel 9, while the return to Zion would not occur until 70 years after Jerusalem’s destruction (29:10), which occurred 18 years after Nebuchadnezzar’s ascension.)
As to the precise interpretation of the verses, there are a number of slightly different approaches among the commentators. In the interests of simplicity, I will follow primarily a single approach below.
The 490 years (70 weeks) refer to the entire time period from the destruction of the First Temple until the Destruction of the Second. Gabriel outlined this entire period to Daniel. Some explain that this was in part a response to Daniel’s anxiousness over the 70 years of Jeremiah. The angel explained that in addition to the literal 70 years of Jeremiah’s prophecy – the 70 years of punishment Israel would require before the building of the Second Temple, Jeremiah was hinting to a longer 70 – 70 weeks of years – which would be required to fully expiate the sins of the nation during the First Temple. Thus, apart from the 70 years of actual exile, there would be 490 years total in which Israel would suffer other forms of unrest and deprivation, even as the Second Temple stood (Abarbanel, Malbim).
Based on this, verse 24 states that a full 490 years would be required to completely wipe out the sins of the First Temple era. At that point, sin could be removed totally and a period of everlasting righteousness and the fulfillment of prophecy could ensue. I.e., after the full atonement of the 490 years, the Messianic era could have ensued, and the Third Temple could have been built shortly after the Second. (Sadly, though, the Jews sinned further during the Second Temple, pushing off the ultimate redemption even further away.)
Verse 25 speaks of an anointed prince appearing after 7 weeks, after which “a street and moat” will be built, standing for 62 weeks, but in troubled times. The anointed prince was Cyrus (whom God referred to as his mashiach (Isaiah 45:1)) who was to grant the Jews permission to rebuild the Temple. This occurred in the 52nd year after Jerusalem’s destruction – longer than 7 weeks, but the final fraction of a week was not counted.
As that verse continues, afterwards would commence the building of the Second Temple. That period would span in total 62 weeks = 434 years, plus the 4 years remaining from the eighth week begun before Cyrus ascended the throne. (Note that the 7+ weeks together with the 62+ total 70 full weeks.) Thus, this period would last 438 years in total – the 18 years from Cyrus’s command until the Temple was inaugurated, together with the 420 years the Second Temple stood. This, however, would be in troubled times – under the rule of the Persians, then the Greeks, and finally the Romans, with much oppression throughout.
Verse 26 describes what will happen at the time of the Second Temple’s destruction. An “anointed one” will be cut off. This either refers to King Agrippa II, the Hasmonean King at the time of the destruction, the High Priest at that time, or the notion of priesthood in general. The Temple will be utterly destroyed by the Roman legions of Vespasian and Titus (“the people of the prince”). Jerusalem will be utterly “washed away” (“its end shall come in a deluge”). And it will remain so until “the end of war” – the final battles in the time of the Messiah.
Verse 27 adds some interesting details of those final years and beyond. The Romans will make a covenant of peace with the “great ones” of Israel for the final seven years. However, they will not abide by their covenant but for the final half a week before the Temple’s destruction they will abolish the offering of sacrifices. Also, an idolatrous temple with mute abominations would later be built on the high place of the Temple (by Hadrian) – until destruction will be poured out upon all such abominations in the End of Days.

What a complete load of nonsense. Perhaps to be expected from a counterfeit Jew.

Apparently rabbis can't even count (or are hoping the readers can't). The first temple (Solomon's Temple) was destroyed by the Babylonian army c. 588 B.C. The second temple (Herod's Temple) was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans (the Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians - Sura 17:7). 588+70=658 years NOT 490 years.

NOTHING this evil people claim or say can be trusted. Counterfeit Jews have spent 2600 years attempting to hide their identity (over 95% of them are Japhethites, descended from Japheth's grandson ASHKENAZ, meaning they are not even Semitic much less Israelites descended from the tribes of Judah or Benjamin. So they have a vested interest in spreading disinformation, which is exactly what this entire article obviously is.

The passage in Daniel not only provides us with a prophecy about The Messiah/Christ (the Anointed One) and the New Covenant; it also provides us with the exact day of the week that the crucifixion would take place: on a WEDNESDAY instead of on a Friday. And with that information, and the information found in the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, we can determine the exact date the crucifixion occurred, i.e. the exact day these same counterfeit Jews murdered their King and High-Priest, proving whom they really serve.

The same crime these "king-makers" have been trying to cover up for the past 2000 years, to preserve their evil, lucrative religious business based on their Babylonian Talmud.

 

[A Freeman]

It’s not Jesus who makes a firm covenant with many, it’s the antichrist. In v 26 Daniel switches from Jesus to the people of the prince to come to the prince to come...the antichrist.

Wrong again.

Daniel 9:24-27 (annotated)
9:24 Seventy "weeks" (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in Everlasting Righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy [as King].
9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince* [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (466 BC): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and The Sanctuary (70 AD); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he {The Messiah/Christ} shall confirm The Covenant {the New Covenant} with many for one week {7 days = 7 years in Bible prophecy code**; please see Numbers 14:34 below}: and in the midst of the week {WEDNESDAY} he shall cause the sacrifice {His Crucifixion} and the oblation {His Life which He offered to us to show us The Way (John 14:6) and to redeem us from our PAST SINS (Rom. 3:25)} to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations {ALL of the churches, which teach the opposite of what He taught} He shall make [it] desolate (Rev. 18, Zech. 14:4), even until the consummation {the "Lake of Hell-Fire"}, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate {those who refuse to listen to and obey God ONLY - please see Acts 5:29, Luke 19:27, Rev. 2:23}.

*Prince Michael/Christ - see Dan. 10:21, Dan. 12:1

**Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know My breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the "House of Judah" forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year (code).

 

[Lisa]

Wrong again.

Daniel 9:24-27 (annotated)
9:24 Seventy "weeks" (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in Everlasting Righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy [as King].
9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince* [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (466 BC): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and The Sanctuary (70 AD); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he {The Messiah/Christ} shall confirm The Covenant {the New Covenant} with many for one week {7 days = 7 years in Bible prophecy code**; please see Numbers 14:34 below}: and in the midst of the week {WEDNESDAY} he shall cause the sacrifice {His Crucifixion} and the oblation {His Life which He offered to us to show us The Way (John 14:6) and to redeem us from our PAST SINS (Rom. 3:25)} to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations {ALL of the churches, which teach the opposite of what He taught} He shall make [it] desolate (Rev. 18, Zech. 14:4), even until the consummation {the "Lake of Hell-Fire"}, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate {those who refuse to listen to and obey God ONLY - please see Acts 5:29, Luke 19:27, Rev. 2:23}.

*Prince Michael/Christ - see Dan. 10:21, Dan. 12:1

**Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know My breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the "House of Judah" forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year (code).

I’m not wrong...you are.

Daniel‬ ‭9:26-27‬ ‭
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.​

‭‭
The Messiah is cut off in v. 26 and the people of the prince to come destroys the city and the temple. In v. 27 It talks about the antichrist who makes a firm covenant but cuts off the covenant and the sacrifices and does the abomination of desolation. Jesus doesn’t do that.

 

[TokiEl]

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
I’m curious to know the Jewish understanding of Daniel 9:24-27. It seems such a clear reference to Jesus that I don’t understand how Jewish scholars can disagree. It speaks of the Messiah who will live 483 years after Daniel’s time. He will be cut off (i.e., crucified) but not for his sake (v. 26), and He will make a covenant with the many (v. 27), abolish sacrifice (v. 27), and terminate transgression (v. 24). And after his death there will be terrible destruction (vv. 26-27). This sounds exactly like Jesus dying for our sins and making a New Covenant with all of mankind, and afterwards there would be terrible calamities during the destruction of the Temple. Jesus lived precisely when Daniel was told the Messiah would be – shortly before the destruction of the Second Temple. How can the Jews not accept this? You don’t even believe the Messiah came when Daniel was told he would!

Let's see what God says about jews whose interpretation you seem satisfied with shall we ?


Ezekiel 2 1“Son of man, ” He said to me, “stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.” 2And as He spoke to me, the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and I heard Him speaking to me.

3“Son of man,” He said to me: “I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me. To this very day they and their fathers have rebelled against Me. 4They are obstinate and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you are to say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’

5And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.


Hosea 4
Hear the word of the Lord,
You children of Israel,
For the Lord brings a charge against the inhabitants of the land:

“There is no truth or mercy
Or knowledge of God in the land.
2 By swearing and lying,
Killing and stealing and committing adultery,
They break all restraint,
With bloodshed upon bloodshed.
3 Therefore the land will mourn;
And everyone who dwells there will waste away
With the beasts of the field
And the birds of the air;
Even the fish of the sea will be taken away.

4 “Now let no man contend, or rebuke another;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.



So to lean on rabbis from a long line of obstinate rebels devoid of knowledge as interpreters of God's words... would make you somewhat of a twat would it not ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Authenticity of the Book of Daniel

Bill Cooper

"Since the 18th century and the birth of what is laughingly known as the Enlightenment, the Book of Daniel has been subjected to the fiercest criticism. It has gone on until today, when amongst modernist scholars and the self-styled ‘higher critics’, nothing is too disparaging to say about it. In short, the Book of Daniel stands today in such a bloodied, bruised and battered condition, that few would risk their academic careers and reputations by defending even the smallest part of it. Now why should this be? Is it because the archaeological record is set against any notion of authenticity for Daniel? Surely, the answer is no. We shall see that there is a great wealth of fine archaeological and documentary detail which positively shouts the authenticity of Daniel. Not that the public ever get to hear about it, of course. That would never do. But the critics and disparaging scholars know it’s there. It’s just that they tend to keep such information to themselves. The purpose of this present enquiry, therefore, is to bring such information and evidence out into the light of day. For example, the most laughed-at episode in the Book of Daniel is surely that ‘silly and utterly fictitious tale’ about Daniel’s three friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. It is ridiculed at every level and on every side. What is kept from the public, though, is the fact that these individuals, far from being fictional, are actually named in the contemporary cuneiform sources, the records of that same Babylonian Empire into which they’d been exiled. Daniel himself appears twice in these records, and in all cases we are able to add considerably to our knowledge concerning their respective careers at Babylon. This authenticating evidence has been known and documented for a great many years now, yet barely a word of it has been allowed to reach the public. We shall, of course, be considering it here – openly!"

The Authenticity of the Book of Daniel eBook : Cooper, Bill: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

The Authenticity of the Book of Daniel eBook : Cooper, Bill: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

* Just started reading so I will share if I find out anything interesting!

Spoiler: Topics addressed

“Ancient writers sometimes meant what they said, and occasionally even knew what they were talking about....” (George Kennedy)

Contents

Introduction
Chapter One: The Early Writing of the Book of Daniel
Chapter Two: Daniel in the Cuneiform Record
Chapter Three: Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the Cuneiform Record
Chapter Four: Archaeology, the Image and the Burning Fiery Furnace
Chapter Five: ‘Agug sharri’ – The King is Mad!
Chapter Six: The Book of Daniel and the Mind of Nebuchadnezzar
Chapter Seven: The Impious King
Chapter Eight: Darius the Mede and the Infamous Decree
Chapter Nine: The 70-week Prophecy and the Pagan World
Chapter Ten: The Crime of Concealment
Epilogue Appendix: The Cuneiform Tablets and Other Inscriptions that Exonerate the Statements of Daniel

 

[A Freeman]

I’m not wrong...you are.

Daniel‬ ‭9:26-27‬ ‭
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.​

‭‭
The Messiah is cut off in v. 26 and the people of the prince to come destroys the city and the temple. In v. 27 It talks about the antichrist who makes a firm covenant but cuts off the covenant and the sacrifices and does the abomination of desolation. Jesus doesn’t do that.

You are reading into it things that aren't there based on your religious superstitions, adding "firm" to covenant and "wing" to abominations, and "grain" to offering, and "one" to desolate, etc. And in the process you're calling Christ the antichrist and making a mockery of His Covenant with His People.

IT SAY MESSIAH THE PRINCE in verse 25 and thus clearly cannot be talking about the antichrist. Why would the antichrist wish to put an end to sin, or bring everlasting righteousness? And again, in verse 27, only God and Christ make Covenants with the children of God. Satan, the liar and prince of this world (verse 26) does NOT make Covenants with anyone.

So yes, you're wrong again, whether you realize it or not.

 

[TokiEl]

I don't know how it's possible but those jah truthers don't get anything right.

 

[Lisa]

You are reading into it things that aren't there based on your religious superstitions, adding "firm" to covenant and "wing" to abominations, and "grain" to offering, and "one" to desolate, etc. And in the process you're calling Christ the antichrist and making a mockery of His Covenant with His People.

IT SAY MESSIAH THE PRINCE in verse 25 and thus clearly cannot be talking about the antichrist. Why would the antichrist wish to put an end to sin, or bring everlasting righteousness? And again, in verse 27, only God and Christ make Covenants with the children of God. Satan, the liar and prince of this world (verse 26) does NOT make Covenants with anyone.

So yes, you're wrong again, whether you realize it or not.

I just quoted straight from my Bible and didn’t add a thing.

Ya, v.25 is not talking about the antichrist..but from v.25 after it talks about Christ getting cut off..its not talking about Him anymore and neither are the next two verses. V.25 talks about the people of the prince to come...that moves the verse away from talking about Christ and now we are moving towards the prince to come..the antichrist. In v.26 talks about the end and in the end..v.27 comes the antichrist to make a covenant. Elsewhere Daniel says he confirms a covenant instead of here saying he makes the covenant...maybe he is making an existing covenant firmer..in either case its the antichrist that does that. Its also the antichrist that performs the abomination of desolation which is what the end of v.27 is talking about and how we can be sure its talking about the antichrist.

The covenant/treaty is to allow the Jews to build another temple and they do it because they want to get back with God in the only way they know how...sacrifices. The antichrist however, will use that temple to the one true God to proclaim himself God instead..the abomination of desolation. The antichrist is know as a deceiver...

Daniel 11:23
After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.
​

Down to v.30 and 31

For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.​

 

[Lisa]

I don't know how it's possible but those jah truthers don't get anything right.

Because they are jah truthers...

Edit: you are a close second.

 

[Infinityloop]

Let's see what God says about jews whose interpretation you seem satisfied with shall we ?


Ezekiel 2 1“Son of man, ” He said to me, “stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.” 2And as He spoke to me, the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and I heard Him speaking to me.

3“Son of man,” He said to me: “I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me. To this very day they and their fathers have rebelled against Me. 4They are obstinate and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you are to say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’

5And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.


Hosea 4
Hear the word of the Lord,
You children of Israel,
For the Lord brings a charge against the inhabitants of the land:

“There is no truth or mercy
Or knowledge of God in the land.
2 By swearing and lying,
Killing and stealing and committing adultery,
They break all restraint,
With bloodshed upon bloodshed.
3 Therefore the land will mourn;
And everyone who dwells there will waste away
With the beasts of the field
And the birds of the air;
Even the fish of the sea will be taken away.

4 “Now let no man contend, or rebuke another;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.



So to lean on rabbis from a long line of obstinate rebels devoid of knowledge as interpreters of God's words... would make you somewhat of a twat would it not ?

 

[Infinityloop]

What a complete load of nonsense. Perhaps to be expected from a counterfeit Jew.

Apparently rabbis can't even count (or are hoping the readers can't). The first temple (Solomon's Temple) was destroyed by the Babylonian army c. 588 B.C. The second temple (Herod's Temple) was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans (the Romans are the direct descendants of the Babylonians - Sura 17:7). 588+70=658 years NOT 490 years.

NOTHING this evil people claim or say can be trusted. Counterfeit Jews have spent 2600 years attempting to hide their identity (over 95% of them are Japhethites, descended from Japheth's grandson ASHKENAZ, meaning they are not even Semitic much less Israelites descended from the tribes of Judah or Benjamin. So they have a vested interest in spreading disinformation, which is exactly what this entire article obviously is.

The passage in Daniel not only provides us with a prophecy about The Messiah/Christ (the Anointed One) and the New Covenant; it also provides us with the exact day of the week that the crucifixion would take place: on a WEDNESDAY instead of on a Friday. And with that information, and the information found in the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, we can determine the exact date the crucifixion occurred, i.e. the exact day these same counterfeit Jews murdered their King and High-Priest, proving whom they really serve.

The same crime these "king-makers" have been trying to cover up for the past 2000 years, to preserve their evil, lucrative religious business based on their Babylonian Talmud.

Genetic Fallacy with no relevance to Daniel 9 (and that's under the false assumption that there is anything correct in what you've said, as your post is out-right ad hominem with no refutations about Daniel 9).

 

[TokiEl]

No but why would you learn about God's work from someone whom according to God come from a long line of obstinate ignoramuses?

 

[Infinityloop]

No but why would you learn about God's work from someone whom according to God come from a long line of obstinate ignoramuses?

I don't care about whatever your ideological operas you have going on there, I care about strong arguments and you have none.
The above post about Daniel 9 was a strong refutation that showed a proper hermeneutical understanding of the text of Daniel 9 and it's context, it also outlined the obvious and ridiculous issues in the idea of trying to shoehorn Jesus into it.

Biblical illiteracy is a trend I see constantly amongst you Christians, it's quite fascinating too that your only defense is either ad hominem or to cower saying "u just don't have de holly sperit", neither of which are valid responses in any situation.

 

[TokiEl]

I don't care about whatever your ideological operas you have going on there, I care about strong arguments and you have none.
The above post about Daniel 9 was a strong refutation that showed a proper hermeneutical understanding of the text of Daniel 9 and it's context, it also outlined the obvious and ridiculous issues in the idea of trying to shoehorn Jesus into it.

Biblical illiteracy is a trend I see constantly amongst you Christians, it's quite fascinating too that your only defense is either ad hominem or to cower saying "u just don't have de holly sperit", neither of which are valid responses in any situation.

No but God is on record calling them twats... so since you quote them you must be some sort of a double twat.