"Not Real Christians"

[elsbet]

But I would probably call you a Paulist more than a Christian.

I would probably call you a Colgate more than a RainDownPlane. Or a very good facsimile.

 

[DavidSon]

"There is no ghost of Jesus."

So Paul's vision was of a living man, or did God make Paul hallucinate? You're saying Paul knew Jesus? When?

"No, the Jews rejected Jesus. Jesus came for the Jews first, they rejected Him"

Ummm...

You realize Jesus and his family and all the followers who actually knew Jesus were all Jews, right? Rejected him my ass. If it weren't for fellow Jews accepting Jesus, he would have had ZERO followers while alive. Jesus was born as a Jew, lived and preached as a Jew, and died on the cross as a Jew. The vast majority of the earliest Christians were Jews.

In a sense, you're still kind of a Jew. Just a self-indulgent Jew who thinks she's been granted a waiver by Paul from living up to all the inconvenient Jewish standards. But I would probably call you a Paulist more than a Christian.

You're not alone in questioning Catholic/Christian devotion to Saul of Tarsus. 3/4 of the NT is penned by him or his follower Luke. You read in forums like this there's very little quoting of Jesus the Messiah, it's verse after verse of Paul. I've always thought it bizarre people put such trust in some deluded rebel who never met Jesus (and actually killed his first followers).

The true history and rift within Christianity has been buried- but it's there. James the brother of Jesus was elected as the head over the first church in Jerusalem. Church historians list later family members as the episcopate even after the fall of the 2nd temple. In the writings of the Ebionites/Nazarenes (Palestinian Christians) we learn that Paul was viewed as a fake- an enemy of Jesus. With the fact that Paul was protected by the Romans there is speculation he was actually a Herodian.

It's exciting to find so much information that is mostly ignored by mainstream society:

https://ismailignosis.com/2019/01/25/the-imamat-of-james-brother-of-jesus-successor-of-christ-leader-of-early-christianity/

James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman

http://false-apostle-paul-archive.blogspot.com/

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

*Who, again, was a JEW, as were all of his family, and all of his followers in the gospels, and the vast majority of Christians for decades after he was crucified.

Does that bother you?
The fact that you worship a Jew?

Why would it? I am not a member of the Hitler Youth! If in God’s sovereignty, Jesus had come as a First Nation American or African, and if the events of the OT had been recorded and experienced by a different nation, the message would still be the message. Race is irrelevant.

 

[elsbet]

Besides, even if "Jews killed Jesus", meaning some Jews pressured the Romans to kill Jesus*, shouldn't you be thankful for that? If he's not executed, then how do all your sins get redeemed? Seems like those particular Jews and the Romans were an essential component of the human sacrifice ritual of atonement. Without anyone to murder Jesus, you go to Hell, yeah?

*Who, again, was a JEW, as were all of his family, and all of his followers in the gospels, and the vast majority of Christians for decades after he was crucified.

Does that bother you?
The fact that you worship a Jew?

Nope.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would it? I am not a member of the Hitler Youth! If in God’s sovereignty, Jesus had come as a First Nation American or African, and if the events of the OT had been recorded and experienced by a different nation, the message would still be the message. Race is irrelevant.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Great!

But so why do you insist that Jesus was killed by the Jews? That's like saying Martin Luther King was assassinated by the humans. If Jesus and all his family and all his apostles and all his followers were all themselves Jews, it makes no sense to attribute his death to Jews. I mean, there were certain Jews who pressured the Romans to execute Jesus, but that's like blaming the human species for killing Robert Kennedy because Sirhan Sirhan and whoever else actually killed RFK were humans...as if Kennedy wasn't. If you're going to blame any one group of people, blame the Romans who literally murdered Jesus. Stop blaming the Jews. The Jews were Jesus, and James, and Mary, and Thomas, and Peter, and every other person who followed Jesus in the flesh. All of them: Jews. If you're going to note that some Jews helped get Jesus killed, then you owe it to Jesus himself to follow that up immediately with an acknowledgement that Jesus et al. were all Jews.

The fact is he was killed by his own kinsmen and the Roman authorities washed their hands of it. English people have been killed by fellow Englishmen before. People don't just execute people from other ethnic groups...

I think the first chapter of Matthew gives a pretty strong indication that Jesus was a Jew of the line of David.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The fact is he was killed by his own kinsmen and the Roman authorities washed their hands of it. English people have been killed by fellow Englishmen before. People don't just execute people from other ethnic groups...

I think the first chapter of Matthew gives a pretty strong indication that Jesus was a Jew of the line of David.

Reminds me of this:

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Reminds me of this:

Satire doesn’t count as debate @TagliatelliMonster -

In many ways, poking fun at something gives the illusion in the mind of superiority. This seems to be a favourite approach for many atheists these days...

For me, it puts me in mind of Edmund drawing glasses and a moustache on a stone lion. In the end, it did nothing to diminish the power of the actual lion when it was turned back from stone:-

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Satire doesn’t count as debate @TagliatelliMonster -

In many ways, poking fun at something gives the illusion in the mind of superiority. This seems to be a favourite approach for many atheists these days...

Trying to shrug it of doesn't put you in the right, all contradictions stack up against you, not me.

But if you're going to give me a "you're not born again" spiel, try this:

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Trying to shrug it of doesn't put you in the right, all contradictions stack up against you, not me.

But if you're going to give me a "you're not born again" spiel, try this:

On the contrary @TagliatelliMonster you are free to believe whatever you choose.



#freewill

 

[Lisa]

Maybe your eyes skipped over this part:



The Jews killed Jesus, lol? So, like, it was Jew-on-Jew crime? Do you really not understand that JESUS AND HIS FOLLOWERS WERE JEWS?

I guess you skipped over this then...

Matthew‬ ‭27:16-18, 21-23‬ ‭
At that time they were holding a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. So when the people gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release for you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?” For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over.

But the governor said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release for you?” And they said, “Barabbas.” Pilate *said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all *said, “Crucify Him!” And he said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they kept shouting all the more, saying, “Crucify Him!”​

Does that bother you?
The fact that you worship a Jew?

I worship God.

 

[Lisa]

First, who did the actual physical harm? Was it a Jew who tortured Jesus? No. Romans did. Was it Jews who nailed him to a cross? Nope. Romans. So how in the hell are you going to claim that his fellow Jews killed him and that Romans only washed their hands? A single Roman washed his hands, symbolically, as if to say "This is between you Jews", but he still ordered the execution. All the physical abuse and murder was Roman, not Jewish.

Second, it was only some Jews who wanted him dead. How many Jews named Barabbas? How big was that crowd? Bigger than the crowd of Jews at the Sermon? Nope. So a minority of Jews betrayed him, and now the whole race gets blamed? That's stupid. That's like saying Biggie Smalls was killed by the blacks, and Biggie's blood is on all black hands. Ridiculous. Those particular Jews who wanted him dead may be cursed, but all the rest of the Jews? No. That'd be like cursing all gentiles for what the Romans did. And you really think Jesus wanted his own family to be cursed? Nah.

Third, people don't just execute people from other ethnic groups? What? You've heard of genocides before, right?

Fourth, answer the question: Don't you need villains to get Jesus killed in order for his salvation scheme to work? If those particular Jews had changed their mind and if those Romans decided to refuse the execution orders, then God's plan is moot and your sins aren't cleansed and you go to Hell, right? Shouldn't you be thanking Jesus's executioners?

Jesus was killed because the Jews wanted it...we can debate how big the crowd was I suppose..but that’s why Jesus was killed, the Jews wanted it done and brought Jesus to the rulers of Israel at that time..the Romans to have it officially done. Though the Roman official saw it was a kangaroo court..washed his hands of it but still ordered Jesus to death...which doesn’t negate the fact that this was all done because...

Matthew‬ ‭26:53-54‬ ‭
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?“​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

When you say "the Jews", that makes me think you're a Jew-hater who isn't comfortable with the fact that her lord and savior was a Jew as well as his entire family and all his followers. Do you really not understand that only some Jews helped get another Jew killed? It was Jew-on-Jew crime.

Your god was a JEW.

It was seen as a nations crime.

Not all Jesus followers are Jews in fact there aren’t that many Jewish Christians...we are mostly gentiles.

My God is God and He was also human and Jewish.

 

[TokiEl]

The PARTICULAR Jews who begged Pilate to crucify Jesus may have had his blood on their hands and their children's hands. NOT THE WHOLE GODDAMNED ETHNICITY.

No it's all good.

It's His blood which washes our souls so it's good to have His blood on us.

The jews didn't know of course but they spoke soul blessings upon themselves and their children.

God is not only great but good too. His mercy endures forever.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yeah, and it obviously was NOT a whole nation's crime. It makes absolutely zero sense to think that ALL Jews were responsible for his death WHEN JESUS AND HIS FAMILY AND HIS FOLLOWERS WERE ALLLLLLLLLLLLL JEWWWWWWWWWWS. There wasn't a single non-Jewish follower of Jesus for DECADES after he was executed. ALL of the earliest Christians were JEWS. If it weren't for all the JEWS who followed Jesus there would be NO Christianity. The PARTICULAR Jews who begged Pilate to crucify Jesus may have had his blood on their hands and their children's hands. NOT THE WHOLE GODDAMNED ETHNICITY. Your God in his human form never conceived of himself as anything but a Jew. His parents, his siblings, all his apostles: Jews, Jews, Jews. The ONLY reason you think it's cool to worship Jesus while NOT being a Jew is because of the pseudo-apostle Paul. You're basically just a dimestore knockoff Jew, exempt from high Jewish standards. You should be ashamed that so little is expected from you. I would interpret Paul's low expectations as an insult if I were you. You really want to be a disciple of Jesus? Become a Jew first. Any other way is NOT what Jesus had in mind.

Before you continue this rather solipsistic polemic, might I politely suggest you actually read some of the New Testament you are attempting to school Christians on? You might end up having a better quality dialogue!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Solipsistic how? Do you know what that word means? I'm stating cold hard facts. Jesus, every member of his family, every apostle, every one of his followers all through his life and for decades afterward:

This part is solipsistic as it is clearly your interpretation, ignoring the Ethiopian Eunach that Philip gave the Gospel to, the house of Cornelius, Peter’s vision of the unclean foods etc.

The Book of Acts opens with Pentecost and Peter cutting the Jews of the day to the heart. By Acts 7 the Jews reject the Gospel as spoken by Stephen and their coats are dropped at the feet of Paul. Jesus proclaimed the Gospel if the Kingdom. With the Kingdom delayed due to national Israel’s rejection of Jesus as Christ, the Gospel passes to the Gentiles and the Gospel of Grace is revealed through Paul. The age of Grace will come to an end one day and through the Tribulation, the Gospel of the Kingdom (which then will be very close) will once more be proclaimed.

Too much info? Here is a pretty deep playlist on the distinction between the Church Age and the Kingdom Age:-

The Coming Kingdom

In this series, we are going through Andy’s book, “The Coming Kingdom: How Kingdom Now Theology is Changing the Focus of the Church.” © Andy Woods Ministries...

www.youtube.com

God has not finished with the Jews and has not permanently rejected them. What he has done it to allow them to remain in the hardness of their hearts till they realise who He is. In the same way, he continues to live people who reject the Gospel, but leaves the door open to them to change their minds.

 

[Lisa]

Yeah, and it obviously was NOT a whole nation's crime. It makes absolutely zero sense to think that ALL Jews were responsible for his death WHEN JESUS AND HIS FAMILY AND HIS FOLLOWERS WERE ALLLLLLLLLLLLL JEWWWWWWWWWWS. There wasn't a single non-Jewish follower of Jesus for DECADES after he was executed. ALL of the earliest Christians were JEWS. If it weren't for all the JEWS who followed Jesus there would be NO Christianity. The PARTICULAR Jews who begged Pilate to crucify Jesus may have had his blood on their hands and their children's hands. NOT THE WHOLE GODDAMNED ETHNICITY. Your God in his human form never conceived of himself as anything but a Jew. His parents, his siblings, all his apostles: Jews, Jews, Jews. The ONLY reason you think it's cool to worship Jesus while NOT being a Jew is because of the pseudo-apostle Paul. You're basically just a dimestore knockoff Jew, exempt from high Jewish standards. You should be ashamed that so little is expected from you. I would interpret Paul's low expectations as an insult if I were you. You really want to be a disciple of Jesus? Become a Jew first. Any other way is NOT what Jesus had in mind.

Rant over? Lol!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I get worked up because the retarded notion that "the Jews killed Jesus" led to millions of Jews being persecuted and murdered. Not cool. Not funny.

Its rather ironic really - you are chastising Christians here who usually get attacked on this forum for standing up for Israel!

 

[elsbet]

Before you continue this rather solipsistic polemic, might I politely suggest you actually read some of the New Testament you are attempting to school Christians on? You might end up having a better quality dialogue!

Excellent suggestion, of course, but I wouldn't wager on it.

 

[Robin]

UNREAL. All of that has nothing to do with what Jesus himself actually said, according to the best documentation we have, the gospels. It's all "visionary" adjustments made by human men (Jews, by the way) who wanted to spread a meme farther and faster so that they could have more earthly power. It worked, they got their power, and Christianity became powerful. And it also became un-Christian. Wound up persecuting Jews. Jesus probably wouldn't appreciate that. It's almost as if Satan decided to hijack the religion and twist it into something Jesus wouldn't recognize. Hmm. Maybe Paul and Peter did have those visions after all.

There is so much content in your replies but this was the funniest. What power did the disciples have on earth? None of them rose to power or prominence, most were met with hostility, violence and even martyrdom. So you're saying that they died lying for nothing.