Homesteading/gardening

Tidal

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I had never seen that thread before. It was a good premise. Unfortunately the forum troll extraordinaire made quite a bit of a mess of it so I won’t be participating there..

Wait It's okay, the Queen of Sheba (oops sorry, I mean Lisa) has disappeared out of the thread because she couldn't stand the hammering me and others were giving her, and she realised she was just making herself look stupid..:)
 

Tidal

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My question is how much land do you need to sustain yourself - minimum sustenance, I’m not talking luxury here... It’s a group of between 13-20 people realistically..

I've asked that same question in survival forums but everybody seems to have a different opinion.
The maths suggest that small groups up to 20-30 people are best because there are less mouths to feed.
 

justjess

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I've asked that same question in survival forums but everybody seems to have a different opinion.
The maths suggest that small groups up to 20-30 people are best because there are less mouths to feed.
Yeah same issue here. Everyone has a very different opinion lol. Sometimes even the same website/source says completely different things. It is a definite group of 13 people but I’m expecting it to be larger due to others attaching themselves after the fact (there are 3 I know definately will because that’s just what they do and we love them too much to say no) - so that’s a definate group of 13-16 just to start. All blood related. If we end up inviting the Militia guy that’s a whole other story.. but probably worth the extra mouths.
 

polymoog

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I don’t think I’d have the stomach to use human shit for fertilizer lol but I will read about it and maybe they can convince me
the author IS from PA himself, and yes, he will convince you. off the grid means nothing goes to waste. everything is recycled/reused. the less technologic crap, the better, because an EMP will render all of it useless (unless you properly insulate it and take other precautions, but who knows the extent of black government projects).

once you narrow down the plot choices for your, youll have to walk the entire piece. pay VERY close attention to what is growing where. every plant is growing in a location fo a reason-- if you have a open field, just looking at what is growing (and NOT growing) can tell you everything you need to know about soil fertility, pH, and soil moisture. this will determine where you may want to plant certain things.
the house location: situate the house in a spot that gives you a good view of the property and ideally is in a more centralized location (if possible). youll be splitting the land up into zones 1-4. zone 1, around the house, will naturally have the most attention. zone 4 will be visited the least frequent, and thats usually reserved for cutting firewood or as a buffer zone from a neighbor. the trick is to keep the plants and animals at a distance from your house so that you dont have a lot of extra walking and moving to do. garden and chickens, for example, will be zone 1. zone 2 is fruit trees.
if youre going to have sheep or cows, youll situate the house in one spot (ideally-- depends on the land) and have radial spokes for paddocks as you move them from one grazing paddock to the next until they come full circle where the grass has grown back again. in the center of the circle will be your milking station, so you can just herd them in for milking and then usher them back into their paddock. itll save a lot of time giving them water, as well. each cow will need about an acre of grassland thats rotated. if you go with a good foraging breed (jerseys or guernseys), you dont need 100% grassland for them. they can forage and eat tree leaves and weeds.

having a pond would be a very good idea, so you ought to bring in a track hoe and dig one or two. aside from the aestetics and wildlife habitat, youll be able to catch fish and youll attract ducks and geese (or have a place for keeping them, although they dont need it, theyre much happier with a place to swim). you can also harvest cattails in a food shortage. i remember reading a bill mollison book (permaculture guy) where he designed ponds with lots of peninsulas for more coastline and had trellises for grapes (you can do hardy kiwi, too) hanging over, so that the person on the canoe/boat harvested them easily. he also integrated it with pigs, where the pigs would walk up a ramp to eat some of the fruit and then poop into the pond and the fish would eat it.
if you can locate the pond up on a higher elevation, you can gravity feed water down to your house/barn/buildings. you can forget about that hand pump well watering something up on a hill.
if you have a fast moving stream, you can capture the water and air mixture in a large steel tank/cylinder and purge out the water, leaving highly pressurized air inside. with a little work, you can run pipes down to the house filled with this pressurized air and either power pneumatic tools or open up a valve in the house and have very cold air in the hotter months (might not apply to north PA). its regular air, so its not explosive, of course.

wherever you decide, you ought to take a VERY good look around and see what the neighbors are growing and raising. thatll be the majority of what youll be doing, because what theyre doing is tried and tested and those animals/plants are well adapted for that location. theres no sense in reinventing the wheel experimenting with too much exotic stuff (although you will be adding in things (aronia, schisandra, etc.) that will grow in that hardiness zone, yet the locals probably arent hip to it.
 

Tidal

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i can't grow things for toffee and haven't a clue how many people places like these could support, bearing in mind a proportion of the produce would have to be stored to see the group through winter without starving-
(PS- the red coils represent barbed wire for security)




 

polymoog

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i can't grow things for toffee and haven't a clue how many people places like these could support, bearing in mind a proportion of the produce would have to be stored to see the group through winter without starving-
(PS- the red coils represent barbed wire for security)
those photos are not in line with permaculture. that is to say, theyre not optimized for food production. if the house was centrally located, vehicles could help transport harvested food/compost/etc. to those garden plots much easier than by hand. the last thing you want to do is add to the labor burden when you have intensive production for a group.
i know its just for illustrative purposes, but why wouldnt there be a hay silo next to the animals in the top picture? and the security is silly, having a house next to the property border. youd want to have the house ideally deeper inside the property for added security and obscurity from passers-by.

both houses are not practical. theyre maintenance riddled. try a cob house. its easily repaired with no cost of buying shingles and wood and repainting, etc. which is all stuff you have to buy.

consider a cob house:






cob house, start to finish. mud and straw, folks, a little gravel and a lot of elbow grease.

 

Tidal

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...and the security is silly, having a house next to the property border. youd want to have the house ideally deeper inside the property for added security and obscurity from passers-by..

Don't read too much into the 1-acre and 5-acre pics, I simply pulled them off the net.
For real security in a post-apoc world, my Doomsday Hall is the best bet for survival..:)
 

Maes17

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@Lurker couldn’t a goat serve that same purpose? Plus the poultry and pigs?

@polymoog yeah I already told my husband we need a hand pump as backup no matter what we do

I don’t think I’d have the stomach to use human shit for fertilizer lol but I will read about it and maybe they can convince me

I love Mother Earth news. I have a ton of their articles saved and have been playing with this idea for like ten years now. That’s an excellent source, I agree.

When I ran the original numbers I came up with something like 50-60 acres and that was with keeping a good portion forest land for both firewood and to qualify for forest land as far as tax purposes (there’s like no property tax if you qualify as a farm or forest out here) I’m just having a difficult time finding parcels in the 30-50 range with a home already on them and apparantly land only mortgages are way harder to acquire which means I’d have to wait longer to get the money up for the deposit and idk if the trade off of waiting longer is worth it in the current societal conditions

I was looking into going passive solar with super insulation and active solar to run the things I absolutely would still need for as long as I could use them. I’m lucky in the respect that my husband can build/fix just about anything. Plumbing, electric, carpentry.. he’s got that covered. I was also considering one of those Nordic type masonry fireplaces.

And yes, I guess he could slaughter stuff if we went that route but i think we would both rather find an ally to do that for us in exchange for something else. Goats have milk and from what I read about blue zones goat milk products are healthier for you then cows milk products, not sure how true that is. Generally though I’m not sure I love the idea of depending on any sort of community, the people out here are insular and if you weren’t born here your automatically looked at suspiciously.. I’ve been here on and off for fifteen years and it’s still like that for me cuz I can’t shake the accent I guess. Even though I will say even if your born two towns over it still applies to some extent

@rainerann those vertical options are awesome and I agree they are aesthetically pleasing. I’ve seen stuff like strawberry trellises which are just really pretty and awesome that I’d love to have just to make me smile (I love strawberries)
I’d definitely at least try for beef. Key amino acids. Higher fat content which helps during the winter.

I’d steer away from pork. I like bacon and ham sandwiches but I gave those up cold turkey —- speaking of poultry. Definitely chickens. You get multiple protein sources in eggs and chicken, not to mention broth.
 

Maes17

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those photos are not in line with permaculture. that is to say, theyre not optimized for food production. if the house was centrally located, vehicles could help transport harvested food/compost/etc. to those garden plots much easier than by hand. the last thing you want to do is add to the labor burden when you have intensive production for a group.
i know its just for illustrative purposes, but why wouldnt there be a hay silo next to the animals in the top picture? and the security is silly, having a house next to the property border. youd want to have the house ideally deeper inside the property for added security and obscurity from passers-by.

both houses are not practical. theyre maintenance riddled. try a cob house. its easily repaired with no cost of buying shingles and wood and repainting, etc. which is all stuff you have to buy.

consider a cob house:






cob house, start to finish. mud and straw, folks, a little gravel and a lot of elbow grease.

House 1 looks like some led zeppelin stairway to heaven type vibe.
 

Maes17

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i can't grow things for toffee and haven't a clue how many people places like these could support, bearing in mind a proportion of the produce would have to be stored to see the group through winter without starving-
(PS- the red coils represent barbed wire for security)




Take it the doomsday hall. You’re exposing our plans
 

justjess

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I’d definitely at least try for beef. Key amino acids. Higher fat content which helps during the winter.

I’d steer away from pork. I like bacon and ham sandwiches but I gave those up cold turkey —- speaking of poultry. Definitely chickens. You get multiple protein sources in eggs and chicken, not to mention broth.
Red meat isn’t that good for you anyway tbh. Atleast not for me. Pigs just seemed easier but also not the healthiest. I’d be okay with just chickens but I think everyone else would get bored.
 

Maes17

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Red meat isn’t that good for you anyway tbh. Atleast not for me. Pigs just seemed easier but also not the healthiest. I’d be okay with just chickens but I think everyone else would get bored.
Red meat isn’t for all. I’ve never experienced any negative effects from red meat myself. For most because of the high uric acid levels gives many people joint pain, kidney stones etc.

I don’t blame you on the pigs. If we’re speaking on a survival thing/sustainability thing. Then yeah. Use pigs. It’s not the healthiest, but like any animal source. As long as cooking is correct you should be fine.
 

polymoog

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regarding cows:

youre on a small scale farm with 2 or 3 milkers, right? say you have one bull. thatll be about 3 veal calves per year for 13-20 people (and/or supply your dogs with meat, unless you want to feed them that garbage kibble). thats not a lot of red meat in your diet. youre going for the butter/cheese/milk which youll get daily.
same goes for sheep, except you can harvest the wool.
 

justjess

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regarding cows:

youre on a small scale farm with 2 or 3 milkers, right? say you have one bull. thatll be about 3 veal calves per year for 13-20 people (and/or supply your dogs with meat, unless you want to feed them that garbage kibble). thats not a lot of red meat in your diet. youre going for the butter/cheese/milk which youll get daily.
same goes for sheep, except you can harvest the wool.
Thoughts on goats? I feel like you can get all that from goats and they’re much more low manteinance but I admittedly have no lived experience with this.
 

polymoog

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Thoughts on goats? I feel like you can get all that from goats and they’re much more low manteinance but I admittedly have no lived experience with this.
theyre a great option for meat, milk, and cheese and will forage on anything and everything. theyre also escape artists, so youve got to keep a close eye on them.
see what the locals are doing. theyve undoubtedly tried a lot and are, by trial and error, doing the best/easiest option for that specific location. i know theyre reticent to talk to "the english" (witness, 1985), you can at least see what theyre selling in local stores, or visit the local feed shop and ask questions. you must have a source of protein.
there is a lot of research you need to do.
 

justjess

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theyre a great option for meat, milk, and cheese and will forage on anything and everything. theyre also escape artists, so youve got to keep a close eye on them.
see what the locals are doing. theyve undoubtedly tried a lot and are, by trial and error, doing the best/easiest option for that specific location. i know theyre reticent to talk to "the english" (witness, 1985), you can at least see what theyre selling in local stores, or visit the local feed shop and ask questions. you must have a source of protein.
there is a lot of research you need to do.
Chickens goats and pigs aren’t protein? Hmm...

They have everything out here. Chickens, pigs, cows.. everyone does it different. I am going to ask around when I figure out exactly where I am going.. every town is a bit different and I’m not decided on a specific one quite yet:
 

justjess

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Well yeah, but prime rib. Yum
I figure there’s enough dairies around here and someone running one of them is bound to need plumbing/electric/carpentry help at some time or another. Or need something that I can trade so I can have beef occassionally in a worst case scenario. I don’t eat that much of it to begin with tbh. My husband would be pissed though.
 

justjess

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Don't go for the spent dairy cow. Your husband deserves better.
A girl I know has a family farm that slaughters whole hogs and cows. Maybe she’ll be willing to trade for something? You guys are an awful lot more concerned about my beef intake then I am lol
 
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