Born Kind?

Haich

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If they are born pure...then why do parents have to teach kids anything? That doesn’t make sense to me...and how does being pure change...if you are born pure..shouldn’t you stay pure?


Is stealing still a sin even if that’s the circumstance? Its still stealing.


Which brings me to the point that we are born sinners...since its natural for us.


The foolproof way is through grace, by faith in Jesus.
Why do you equate purity with perfection? Babies are entirely reliant on their parents, they are pure in every sense of the word. Toddlers go through a series of developmental changes which results in the 'terrible twos' phase. They simply are learning to make sense of the world around them and they act instinctively. They aren't trying to actively cause malice, it's a child which doesn't know any better.
So no, children do not sin...you have to teach them to navigate their feelings and vent in healthy ways because nobody is born with advanced faculties of reasoning.

You can't stay pure because as you get older, you develop a separate sense of self and identity which causes you to rebel against your caregivers. Aka the dreaded puberty phase...again, it is totally natural and it allows teens to rely on their own faculties of logic and reasoning. Of course, they'll make mistakes but they have to in order to learn from it. As humans, we usually know better (in year 10 I should've known not to fall for the charms of the local heartthrob) but does that mean we follow our intuition or actually just do what we feel?

It is clear that my interpretation of sin is very different to yours so I won't bother going into detail tbh. All I'll say is, you say we're natural born sinners, so you are a sinner by default of said statement, yet somehow, you are different to other sinners such as myself?
 






Lisa

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Why do you equate purity with perfection? Babies are entirely reliant on their parents, they are pure in every sense of the word. Toddlers go through a series of developmental changes which results in the 'terrible twos' phase. They simply are learning to make sense of the world around them and they act instinctively. They aren't trying to actively cause malice, it's a child which doesn't know any better.
So no, children do not sin...you have to teach them to navigate their feelings and vent in healthy ways because nobody is born with advanced faculties of reasoning.

You can't stay pure because as you get older, you develop a separate sense of self and identity which causes you to rebel against your caregivers. Aka the dreaded puberty phase...again, it is totally natural and it allows teens to rely on their own faculties of logic and reasoning. Of course, they'll make mistakes but they have to in order to learn from it. As humans, we usually know better (in year 10 I should've known not to fall for the charms of the local heartthrob) but does that mean we follow our intuition or actually just do what we feel?

It is clear that my interpretation of sin is very different to yours so I won't bother going into detail tbh. All I'll say is, you say we're natural born sinners, so you are a sinner by default of said statement, yet somehow, you are different to other sinners such as myself?
My point is...no one had to teach them to sin..but we do have to teach them not to.

I’m saved..that’s my distinction. You can be saved too though..so its not like I’m someone special, anyone can have salvation through believing on Jesus.
 






Haich

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My point is...no one had to teach them to sin..but we do have to teach them not to.

I’m saved..that’s my distinction. You can be saved too though..so its not like I’m someone special, anyone can have salvation through believing on Jesus.
Like I said, we have a different understanding of sin so we can't ever agree on this topic. Just wanted to point out that kids are pure and it's our job to raise them well...

You call it sin, I call it learning right from wrong. They aren't born with this special heightened sense of awareness, they learn as they go...
 






Lisa

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For Christianity's "born in sin" to work they have to try to prove that babies are cruel and actually bad before good.
All people are sinners..do you think they just became that way?
 






Daciple

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It amazes me that there are people who are trying to argue against the objective fact that is seen in Children and their behavior, saying that what they express is not the outward action of what if in an adult would be called Sin.

Before you jump the gun, I do believe the Child is innocent, they dont have the capacity to acknowledge why or to react in a cognitive way to be considered Sinful. However this doesnt reject the fact that the behavior is 100% objectively Sinful.

We see a study here that tries to state that Children act altruistically yet if you agree with this then you also must agree with the opposite, that Children also act in "Sinful" way as well.

So when I say that Children objectively act in a Sinful manner, it is clearly evidenced that Children are almost constantly 100% Self Centered. They are Greedy, they Lie, they Steal from one another all 3 are specific Commandments in the 10 Commandments that are there to expose our Sinful Nature and if you deny the Children, from 6 months to whatever other age do not OBJECTIVELY act in these manners you are willfully ignorant.

The supposed reasons for why they act this way actually doesnt matter, regardless if they just are not capable to verbalize what they want doesnt negate the FACT that they act out these behaviors and the FACT that they are not making out right decisions to do this actually 100% shows that the NATURE of Children are to Sin.

2 extremely blatant examples would be, take a toy 2 young kids both want, like babies, infants, and drop it in the middle of a crib when they both want it. Guess what happens more than most of the time? These children RAGE OUT trying to take the toy from the other kid. The FACTS are if they had the physical capabilities they would literally murder each other for the toy. I have witnesses very young children TRY to seriously hurt other children when they want something the other kid has. This isnt some abnormal behavior, its literally something every child both tries to do and also has been the recipient of.

Obviously as they are extremely young children they cant actually do harm, and we as adults many times just laugh at the behavior, why? Because we understand 2 things, one it is NORMAL for babies to act this way and two we know that its not going to hurt them and then becomes a TEACHING opportunity.

And that leads me to the very very objectively true FACT which is absolutely NO ONE ON EARTH has to teach Children how to behave in OBJECTIVELY SINFUL BEHAVIORS. It is the literal OPPOSITE, we must as good parents TEACH THEM not to act in OBJECTIVELY Sinful behaviors.

If you tell me that you as a Parent had to TEACH your Child to lie to you, then you are yourself a Liar. The fact is, you have had to TEACH your Child from a young age on up NOT to Lie. No one taught them to lie, they just do it, INSTINCTIVELY, which again is an OBJECTIVELY SINFUL BEHAVIOR. You have to TEACH your child to share, if you tell me that your kid is always just like yep here you can have my toy and never throws fits or tries to strongarm the other child to get it back, well again you are a liar.

You need to TEACH your child to share, why? Because they naturally lean towards being Selfish and Greedy, which again are OBJECTIVELY SINFUL BEHAVIORS.

I have a 2 year old and I watch her all day act in Sinful ways, I take her to Church and for the most part she does share, but that doesnt stop her for MANY TIMES acting insanely Selfish and Greedy and literally try and take all the toys for herself or throw fits when she is made to share. She has a few kids her age there and guess what ALL OF THEM DO THE EXACT SAME THING. They all try and take all the toys, they all throw fits and cry when they are made to share and at times they can even get aggressive with one another over it.

Children 100% act in OBJECTIVELY SINFUL WAYS, their Natural tendency is to act out in OBJECTIVELY SINFUL WAYS, and we as Parents are constantly trying to teach AGAINST their Natural tendency and predisposition to act in OBJECTIVELY SINFUL WAYS. To say otherwise is to be willfully ignorant...
 






Haich

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Please prove to us how babies are sinful. Like Kung Fu said, to validate your theology you need to believe that we are born sinful...

So how is a newborn sinful? What is inherently sinful about a newborn?
 






elsbet

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LOL if you say so, Lisa. Why is it that very young children are naturally so empathetic and giving before they EVER exhibit this kind of behavior? How do you explain that?
lol
They aren't... where are you getting that information?
 






Lisa

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Please prove to us how babies are sinful. Like Kung Fu said, to validate your theology you need to believe that we are born sinful...

So how is a newborn sinful? What is inherently sinful about a newborn?
Why do we have to teach kids to be good from a young age?
 






Lisa

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Don't answer my question with a question. Either answer my question first or don't quote me.
My question is your answer. If we are born good why do we have to be taught from an early age to be good? That doesn’t make any sense from your understanding. If your born good being bad wouldn’t have any pull on you, you wouldn’t want it. But if you’re born with sin...being bad would have a big pull on you and in fact you would want to be bad, which is the reason the world is like it is. We all have a really hard time being good.

Most people though reject the notion that we are bad because they don’t like to think of themselves as bad but as good, but that doesn’t explain their actions when they aren’t ‘good’.
 






Cintra

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So...

We are good because we are taught by our parents.
They were taught by their parents.
And they by theirs.

Who taught the first ones?
Or did it just come naturally to them?
 






Lisa

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So...

We are good because we are taught by our parents.
They were taught by their parents.
And they by theirs.

Who taught the first ones?
Or did it just come naturally to them?
We did eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place we know good things..we are just naturally inclined to bad because of sin.
 






Cintra

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We did eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place we know good things..we are just naturally inclined to bad because of sin.
I don't really see that in practice.

Yes, it is very easy to teach children, they are very malleable. Children can be taught to do good or bad.

But beyond this teaching process I think that man is biased toward good.
We are a social animal, we choose to gather together into groups. Tribes, villages, and so on. This necessitates social cooperation where individuals need to rely on other individuals.

If we did not have an innate capacity and willingness to trust and rely on others, I don't think humanity would have survived.
Or we would be more like cats.
If you know what I mean.
 






Lisa

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I don't really see that in practice.

Yes, it is very easy to teach children, they are very malleable. Children can be taught to do good or bad.

But beyond this teaching process I think that man is biased toward good.
We are a social animal, we choose to gather together into groups. Tribes, villages, and so on. This necessitates social cooperation where individuals need to rely on other individuals.

If we did not have an innate capacity and willingness to trust and rely on others, I don't think humanity would have survived.
Or we would be more like cats.
If you know what I mean.
I don’t see where wanting community means we are good. We may want community but how many feel like outcasts to that community? If you aren’t in a certain clique in the community you don’t feel as if you belong. There are a lot of people who don’t feel as if they belong...for whatever reason.

We may want to trust in and rely on each other but there because of sin, we shouldn’t be so trusting, everyone has the capacity for evil.
 






Cintra

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I don’t see where wanting community means we are good. We may want community but how many feel like outcasts to that community? If you aren’t in a certain clique in the community you don’t feel as if you belong. There are a lot of people who don’t feel as if they belong...for whatever reason.

We may want to trust in and rely on each other but there because of sin, we shouldn’t be so trusting, everyone has the capacity for evil.
I was talking about general principals rather than individual exceptions.

People have a tendency to gather into groups for reasons of self protection and sharing of tasks/resources.
Don't ask me why this is so. It just always is. It always has been. People gather into groups. They usually prefer company.
This is seen from the earliest evidence of mankind. Right from the beginning of the bible, people are hanging out in groups. being tribes, building towns.
Archaeologically Jericho is one of the oldest known cities.

Before this there were wandering tribes. Not single individuals practicing extreme self reliance alone.

Cooperation is built in. Or we would have died out.

Yes! everyone has a vast capacity for evil.
Some nurture that in themselves, some nurture it in others.
It is the most horrible distortion of humanity, and it is evil.
 






Lisa

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I was talking about general principals rather than individual exceptions.

People have a tendency to gather into groups for reasons of self protection and sharing of tasks/resources.
Don't ask me why this is so. It just always is. It always has been. People gather into groups. They usually prefer company.
This is seen from the earliest evidence of mankind. Right from the beginning of the bible, people are hanging out in groups. being tribes, building towns.
Archaeologically Jericho is one of the oldest known cities.

Before this there were wandering tribes. Not single individuals practicing extreme self reliance alone.

Cooperation is built in. Or we would have died out.

Yes! everyone has a vast capacity for evil.
Some nurture that in themselves, some nurture it in others.
It is the most horrible distortion of humanity, and it is evil.
I’ve always felt like the outsider, so my thinking could be skewed there.
I think most people gather in families, that’s what families are for. And I agree, life is hard, people came together to make it in life.
 






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