A story about my ancestors

[Bacsi]

Dear VC folks!

I just want to tell a story. There were people who lived in the wide stepps of what is now called Kazakhstan, Central Asia. Kazakhstan is a word of two parts. Kazakh (or Qazaq phonetically with a gutteral Q sound) means "free person" in Turkic and "stan" is "country" in Persian. The country of free people. Isn't it a nice name? These people lived in moble homes or yurts. In their language "Kazakh ooi" or Kazakh homes. They rode horses and sang beautiful songs. They worshipped the spirit of the Blue Sky Tengri as the Father and of the Brown Earth as the Mother, they also worshiped the great spirits of their departed ancestors. They lived in peace and harmony with themselves, their neighbors and God. They saw God in everybody and in everything. They saw the whole Universe as a whole phenomenon, not separated into parts, but as one thing consisting of many, like the human body which is one organism though there are many components to the body. They were happy. God led and taught them.

There are many who judge them and say they didn't know the way. That they were not right. That they are now burning and being tormented in hell, because their ideas and lives were worthless. Is it really true? I strongly disagree. They were simply beautiful and God loves them dearly.

 

[TokiEl]

If people live like God personified (Jesus Christ) taught... then why would they be in hell ?

 

[Bacsi]

If people live like God personified (Jesus Christ) taught... then why would they be in hell ?

yes. But that's not what I'm usually told by religious people.

 

[Karlysymon]

Dear VC folks!

I just want to tell a story. There were people who lived in the wide stepps of what is now called Kazakhstan, Central Asia. Kazakhstan is a word of two parts. Kazakh (or Qazaq phonetically with a gutteral Q sound) means "free person" in Turkic and "stan" is "country" in Persian. The country of free people. Isn't it a nice name? These people lived in moble homes or yurts. In their language "Kazakh ooi" or Kazakh homes. They rode horses and sang beautiful songs. They worshipped the spirit of the Blue Sky Tengri as the Father and of the Brown Earth as the Mother, they also worshiped the great spirits of their departed ancestors. They lived in peace and harmony with themselves, their neighbors and God. They saw God in everybody and in everything. They saw the whole Universe as a whole phenomenon, not separated into parts, but as one thing consisting of many, like the human body which is one organism though there are many components to the body. They were happy. God led and taught them.

There are many who judge them and say they didn't know the way. That they were not right. That they are now burning and being tormented in hell, because their ideas and lives were worthless. Is it really true? I strongly disagree. They were simply beautiful and God loves them dearly.

God is fair. Everyone will be judged according to the knowledge they've had access to. That's why Jesus said that He isn't coming back until everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision for or against it. So that no one will have an excuse.

 

[Bacsi]

God is fair. Everyone will be judged according to the knowledge they've had access to. That's why Jesus said that He isn't coming back until everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision for or against it. So that no one will have an excuse.

That means he's not the only way

 

[polymoog]

God is fair. Everyone will be judged according to the knowledge they've had access to. That's why Jesus said that He isn't coming back until everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision for or against it. So that no one will have an excuse.

bear with my (obvious?) questions here, as i dont know this subject.

(1) what about the dead and buried who didnt have a chance to hear the gospel? they are resurrected and given an opportunity?
(2) anyone who decides against the gospel goes to hell (including all other religions)?
(3) where do nescient (as opposed to ignorant) people stand with this?

 

[Thunderian]

There is only one way to be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ.

If God is not willing that any should perish, then we can trust that no one is going to hell because of ignorance. But that doesn't mean there is any other way of salvation. It is only by His work and His name that we are saved.

 

[Thunderian]

That's why Jesus said that He isn't coming back until everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision for or against it.

Are we sure Jesus said that?

 

[Colonel Valerio]

If there is only one way to salvation, and if go by the assumption that the creator controls all, then we truly have no choice. If that is the case God is cruel.

The only system of an afterlife that is fair is reincarnation with possibility of escaping samsara

 

[Karlysymon]

Are we sure Jesus said that?

The Olivet discourse (Matt 24:14)

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Karlysymon]

bear with my (obvious?) questions here, as i dont know this subject.

(1) what about the dead and buried who didnt have a chance to hear the gospel? they are resurrected and given an opportunity?

Well, that depends on your personal belief within Christendom. I believe there'll be no opportunities to 'make it right', at or after the resurrection. There's no interim, like Purgatory, to correct your past deeds. Your own lifetime is the only time we are given to make a choice: for or against.

(2) anyone who decides against the gospel goes to hell (including all other religions)?

Again, this depends on your understanding of the problem of sin. Metaphorically, God hands out life-jackets to the occupants of a wrecked ship so they don't sink. But if you refuse the jacket, and God cannot force you, then you are responsible for your own death.

(3) where do nescient (as opposed to ignorant) people stand with this?

None will be condemned for not heeding light and knowledge that they never had, and they could not obtain. We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had. <- that is real justice.
Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by
human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the HolySpirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.

 

[Bacsi]

If people live like God personified (Jesus Christ) taught... then why would they be in hell ?

There is no hell. It's Egyptian deception picked up by the Jews, then Greeks and Arabs later on.

 

[Bacsi]

God is fair. Everyone will be judged according to the knowledge they've had access to. That's why Jesus said that He isn't coming back until everyone has been given an opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision for or against it. So that no one will have an excuse.

If that's the case, no religion is necessary and is a waste of time.

 

[Bacsi]

bear with my (obvious?) questions here, as i dont know this subject.

(1) what about the dead and buried who didnt have a chance to hear the gospel? they are resurrected and given an opportunity?
(2) anyone who decides against the gospel goes to hell (including all other religions)?
(3) where do nescient (as opposed to ignorant) people stand with this?

Abrahamic religions are exclusivist. My way or highway. If people ask hard questions, they might come up with some way to evade it. But the truth is, to those religions it's pretty simple. Beleive like we do or else. No third option. I hear all the time from Muslims and Christians alike, that my ancestors were devil worshippers and are burning in the hottest hell... It's their real de-facto beleif.

 

[Bacsi]

There is only one way to be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ.

If God is not willing that any should perish, then we can trust that no one is going to hell because of ignorance. But that doesn't mean there is any other way of salvation. It is only by His work and His name that we are saved.

This is not the beleif held and practiced by real-life Christians or Muslims. If you allow ignorant to be saved, then Christianity and Islam aren't needed.

 

[Bacsi]

Are we sure Jesus said that?

Not exactly.

 

[Bacsi]

If there is only one way to salvation, and if go by the assumption that the creator controls all, then we truly have no choice. If that is the case God is cruel.

The only system of an afterlife that is fair is reincarnation with possibility of escaping samsara

I agree. There is no justice in any method of "salvation". Especially if we assume that everything was created the way it was by God.

 

[Bacsi]

Well, that depends on your personal belief within Christendom. I believe there'll be no opportunities to 'make it right', at or after the resurrection. There's no interim, like Purgatory, to correct your past deeds. Your own lifetime is the only time we are given to make a choice: for or against.


Again, this depends on your understanding of the problem of sin. Metaphorically, God hands out life-jackets to the occupants of a wrecked ship so they don't sink. But if you refuse the jacket, and God cannot force you, then you are responsible for your own death.


None will be condemned for not heeding light and knowledge that they never had, and they could not obtain. We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had. <- that is real justice.
Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by
human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the HolySpirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.

Thank you. You are truthful here, without hypocrisy. That's why I'm told by Muslims and Christians - laymen and clergy alike - that my ancestors were full of demons/jinns and are being tormented by God in eternal fire.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

I agree. There is no justice in any method of "salvation". Especially if we assume that everything was created the way it was by God.

Yep, if you worship a god that would damn his own creations for eternity, that god is evil. The behavior of the Lord that most believers believe in would be unacceptable in any one of us, but some how it’s ok in the entity they choose to worship.

 

[Bacsi]

Yep, if you worship a god that would damn his own creations for eternity, that god is evil. The behavior of the Lord that most believers believe in would be unacceptable in any one of us, but some how it’s ok in the entity they choose to worship.

It's not as harmless it may seem. People are highly social, hierarchical beings. We follow a leader. Parent, teacher, preacher, boss, police officer, president, etc. etc. We take authority as culmination of ideas to follow. We see it as setting example for our own thinking and behavior. "Apple doesn't fall far from the apple tree" there's a saying in my language. Same with beliefs and God, as the absolutely highest, most powerful authority. Therefore, people will copy their God in all things, whether they realize it or not.

Not all people of the same religion or even same small or large local body of believers has the same set of beliefs, thought. People may pick and choose supermarket style their beliefs. Even within one family, one person's God is merciful and benevolent, the other person's is hateful and full of holy wrath. So it's very individual and you have to consider each person and what is in their mind specifically. However, generalizations are possible to some degree, because there's some average. That's why people of different religious group can behave quite differently, even within one larger religious umbrella...