AspiringSoul
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This is something few muslims would even openly accept, because in their mind it's always the christians who lie (and they lie a lot too).
islam vs christianity debates are a fairly new thing. We were once seperated by language and geography. If christians lived in the arab muslim world, i doubt they'd have ever gotten a fair shake in a debate and vice versa if a muslim was amongst christians. I doubt historically they really ever debated or had in depth knowledge like we do now in the age of information.
here are just random examples off the top of my head....in no order of importance
1)
en.wikishia.net
ok this isnt a link to the apparent 'debate' but if you read the contents of the debate, you will want to punch a baby it is so full of shit..
that is, it is entirely made up. where "imam al rida" even thinks Luke was a disciple of Jesus...where he talks to the christian about the contents of scripture that arent even there.
It is a completely made up debate. It never happened.
This isnt a well known debate amongst muslims, but it was once quoted to me by a shia who didnt like that i had my own opinions.
2)
Another example is this book they call 'the gospel of Barnabas'
en.wikipedia.org
it's a muslim forgery...blatant.
now just think about this one...
at some point in time, actual muslims wrote a fake gospel and claimed it was real. Meaning, they literally wrote the Word of Allah WITH THEIR OWN HANDS...
as in, they claimed it was Allah's Word.
shameless and pathetic.
3) this one is more of an error than it is a deliberate lie, but it just shows how moronic muslims can be.
Jesus is called Allah's WORD/KALAM....and only Jesus has this distinction. No other prophet.
Islam didn't expand on this, it's deeper meaning, because it isn't supposed to. We are supposed to. We are supposed to seek knowledge in order to understand the Quran. This muslim beardbro argument that has often been thrown in my face in arrogance, saying 'we dont use other books to interpret the Quran, rather we use the Quran to interpret everything else' is stupid and assumes they even have the correct knowledge of the Quran, which they don't.
So here's the verse where Jesus is called Allah's WORD
more specifically ill share the verse translated by Mohsin Khan (a notorious liar and demon)
Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Îsa (jesus) عليه السلام, the word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous."
(سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #39)
all they this demon wrote [in brackets like this] was his own opinion but more than that, an attempt to divert the Word of Allah from it's meaning, by pushing his own ignorant version.
'Allah's WORD (BE AND IT IS)'
'be and it is' ie meaning these interprators thought/think that the Word refers to Allah's Command to create Jesus by immaculate conception in the same way Allah can create something out of nothing by His command.
Even if this is their own interpretation, they have no right writing it in brackets like they do, to influence the masses. This is DEMONIC as it takes a special kind of egomaniac to think he knows better than Allah and His prophet...
and yet, how come im the only one questioning this?
another thing they purposely do is they will write it as 'a word of Allah'
not THE WORD OF ALLAH, only 'a word of Allah.
which is funny because Mohsin Khan's version says 'the word from Allah'
subtle ways these demons twisted the Quran in it's meaning so openly...
in fact, the urdu ones are even worse they don't even use the term Kalam/Word they just
9. وہ ابھی عبادت گاہ میں کھڑے نماز ہی پڑھ رہے تھے کہ فرشتوں نے آواز دی کہ (زکریا) خدا تمہیں یحییٰ کی بشارت دیتا ہے جو خدا کے فیض یعنی (عیسیٰ) کی تصدیق کریں گے اور سردار ہوں گے اور عورتوں سے رغبت نہ رکھنے والے اور (خدا کے) پیغمبر (یعنی) نیکو کاروں میں ہوں گے
9. They were still standing in the synagogue praying when the angels called out saying, (Zachariah) God gives you the good news of Yahya, who will confirm the grace of God, i.e. (Jesus) and will be a leader and will not be attracted to women. The keepers and (God's) messengers (i.e.) will be among the righteous
4)
those verses which refer to the corruption of the Torah
nowhere does it say the new testament or the gospel was corrupted, it only refers to the Torah in the context. It says 'people of the book' but in the context of both Quran and hadith it is only the Torah that was referred to. Even then he corruption aspect was not the text itself, but to false interpretations.
Just as it says in Jeremiah 'the lying hand of the scribes has corrupted it'.
in the hadith when prophet Mohammed was angry towards his companions reading the Torah, it was because they were reading arabic translations given to them by a local jewish rabbi. Even then the prophet did not say 'it is corrupt'. He was careful and told them 'you might say a part of it is corrupt, but it is actually Allah's Word or you might say it is Allah's Word but it is corrupt'. Ie he wanted them to avoid mistakes entirely, so it was better for them not to read what they were given in arabic.
It turns out Caliph Umar however used to read an arabic translation of the Torah aswell as trust a jewish guide/historian to teach him jewish history. So even he as the prophet's companion did so....perhaps he had asked the prophet for permission at a later point that isnt recorded in any hadith?
contexts do go missing like that and typically muslims should try to understand the bigger picture.
Here's the main issue though, if you want to go with the argument that the bible is corrupt, what is your excuse when the Quran says the bible is Allah's Word, Truth etc all in the present tense of the 7th century?
it is insane that when they're made aware of this, they try to move the goalposts and make a different type of argument...
like "there was some scripture then, even in the time of the prophet but it doesnt exist anymore"
the most common argument is an INSTANT
"bu5t daty king jameseses doe but da american version, der so many"
I react very badly to that answer because as soon as they start saying it, I end up cursing them right there..
eg "you dumb cunt, the same argument applies to Quran TRANSLATIONS".
5)
the new testament term 'Lord Jesus Christ'
in psalm 110, the term is adoni whereas God alone is ADONAI. So Jesus is adoni and there is a distinction between the two.
in arabic, just like english, there is only one word, Rabb, Lord.
In a context where the christians had made Jesus into God and called him 'THE LORD (adonai) through their ignorance, prophet Mohammad naturally was bound to reject the term 'rabb' when it was given to him. He said 'call me Syed/master, only Allah is RABB'.
So..obviously it is in the interest of muslims to safeguard this term. That is fine. However that is not an excuse to twist their interpretations/translations of the Quran through this verse
And she, in whose house he was, asked of him an evil act. She bolted the doors and said: Come! He said: I seek refuge in Allah! Lo! he is my lord, who hath treated me honourably. Lo! wrong-doers never prosper.
(سورة يوسف, Yusuf, Chapter #12, Verse #23)
in the context, Joseph was referring to his slave master as 'his rabb' (as in, in arabic this is how it translates). Joseph was speaking a different language obv, i dont know what he spoke in his time in egypt but you can imagine the term for 'lord' being the same as adoni. Ie Joseph was not referring to Allah/God.
Yet look at muslim translations and interpretations and they quite often literally change the verse to suggest Joseph was referring to Allah.
in their mind they think it is okay to literally change the meaning because in their discretion 'it's better than confusing people.
who gave them that right? no one. they made a personal choice to literally 'write the book with their own hands and say 'this is from Allah''.
instead of muslims focusing on educating muslims on these matters (rabb/lord/adoni), they preferred to just change the Quran in it's meaning via translations so muslims would not even be aware of the underlying term (adoni) which directly relates to Jesus.
it appears these muslims attempted to sabotage a truth which actually not only benefits islam's argument, it also actually goes a long way in waking these lost xtians up from their ignorance.
however the bigger issue to me is how 12:23 is so cheapily altered and corrupted by the translators whilst muslims are silent.
6)
Deuteronomy 18:18 is NOT about prophet Mohammed.
the song of songs 'machmad' is NOT the name of Mohammed....
i know exactly which parts of prophecy are literally mentioned in the bible and fulfilled by the prophet or by islam. However the fact muslims have also lied only discredits us.
The Quran says that the jews will find Mohammed described in their own Torah, the UMMI/UNLETTERED ONE.
this is interesting because nothing like that exists in the Torah.
However, it opens up a bigger problem for jews..
if Mohammed is clearly fulfilling prophecies as a gentile, it can only happen if the messiah has already been...
and hence if the jews were to challenge Deuteronomy 18:18 as an example where the word is UMMATI (one from the nation) (ie ummati=from the nation ummi=not from the nation)...they'd have to admit 'he's already come', hence it points the way to Jesus.
There's also the fact that Leviticus 26 contains the punishments theme, which is central to the story of prophet Mohammad, in that he is a literal manifestation of 7th century JEWISH MESSIANICISM courtesy of the sassanian-jewish era.
Few people appreciate just how important those events were in the jewish story. in their attempt to prove Jesus wrong, they sought to receive the messiah in their own image....and as it says in Leviticus 26 "you will plant a seed in vain but not enjoy it's fruit" thus this archetype came in the form of Mohammad. This even includes the dualism of the messiah ben joseph, suffering servant archetype aswell as the davidic conquerer arrchetype which Mohammad himself represented via Mecca and Madina.
However this is not at all a diss, it means that even the shadow of the messianic archetype is greater than all the previous prophets, greater than all the beast systems......and yet the fact they cannot receive this archetype is because the real one has already been.
Mohammed was passive in Mecca....but it is no match for who Jesus was...Jesus went all the way to the grave...
Prophet Mohammed migrated to Madina, whilst Jesus ascended to paradise
Prophet Mohammad became a ruler and conquerer in Madina, putting polythiesm in arabia to an end. Jesus is going to conquer and rule the whole earth.
As a muslim, this is not in anyway a diss towards prophet Mohammad. He himself, did not ever claim to be 'the greatest', his natural humility was such that he did not even wish to compare himself to Moses. The only reason why muslims were raised to think Mohammad is the greatest of all, is because his bloodline who are 'our jews' have programmed muslims to believe it, because such a belief benefits them.
The entire theme of the messianic archetype is central to the islam story. Everything islam became is what Jews wanted to be. As Paul said 'by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned'.
7)
The identity of the Holy Spirit
Say: The holy spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).
(سورة النحل, An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #102)
any christian who reads this should understand, the Quran itself says it is DELIVERED from Allah through the Holy Spirit.
think of John 16's comforter/the holy spirit.
literally the Quran and prophet Mohammad are the fulfillment of that.
'not speak on his own but what he hears'
'bring you ALL THE TRUTH'
'tell you what is yet to come (prophecy, as in a new prophet).
The holy spirit acts through humans.
Christians can hate islam all they want but they should tread lightly, because they know Jesus promised the holy spirit would bring all the truth, prophecy etc and that literally means a scripture and a propet.
they may not like muslims (i dont blame them when muslims lie as ive detailed), may wish to not acknowledge islam, but islam has proven i tself by fulfilling key prophecies, defeating or ending the 4 beasts of daniel, having the wilderness and ishmael connection...and no other ummah/community/nation of any prophet has accomplished what the ummah of prophet Mohammad has in that respect. Or the fact that not one of the bible prophets even with greater number of followers (like Moses or David) could accomplish what Mohammed did, in less time...all from the wilderness.
when Jesus told his faithful to preach the Gospel to the entire world, causing them to go by the holy spirit and speak in tongues....by extention islam was already a done deal..because Jesus thought of all nations and the Holy Spirit's job was to give all people THE ENTIRE TRUTH and the future via prophecies...
literally a gentile prophet and a scripture......which literally had to lead to the promise made to Ishmael.
islam vs christianity debates are a fairly new thing. We were once seperated by language and geography. If christians lived in the arab muslim world, i doubt they'd have ever gotten a fair shake in a debate and vice versa if a muslim was amongst christians. I doubt historically they really ever debated or had in depth knowledge like we do now in the age of information.
here are just random examples off the top of my head....in no order of importance
1)
Debate of Imam al-Rida (a) with Jathaliq - wikishia
en.wikishia.net
that is, it is entirely made up. where "imam al rida" even thinks Luke was a disciple of Jesus...where he talks to the christian about the contents of scripture that arent even there.
It is a completely made up debate. It never happened.
This isnt a well known debate amongst muslims, but it was once quoted to me by a shia who didnt like that i had my own opinions.
2)
Another example is this book they call 'the gospel of Barnabas'
Gospel of Barnabas - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
now just think about this one...
at some point in time, actual muslims wrote a fake gospel and claimed it was real. Meaning, they literally wrote the Word of Allah WITH THEIR OWN HANDS...
as in, they claimed it was Allah's Word.
shameless and pathetic.
3) this one is more of an error than it is a deliberate lie, but it just shows how moronic muslims can be.
Jesus is called Allah's WORD/KALAM....and only Jesus has this distinction. No other prophet.
Islam didn't expand on this, it's deeper meaning, because it isn't supposed to. We are supposed to. We are supposed to seek knowledge in order to understand the Quran. This muslim beardbro argument that has often been thrown in my face in arrogance, saying 'we dont use other books to interpret the Quran, rather we use the Quran to interpret everything else' is stupid and assumes they even have the correct knowledge of the Quran, which they don't.
So here's the verse where Jesus is called Allah's WORD
more specifically ill share the verse translated by Mohsin Khan (a notorious liar and demon)
Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Îsa (jesus) عليه السلام, the word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous."
(سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #39)
all they this demon wrote [in brackets like this] was his own opinion but more than that, an attempt to divert the Word of Allah from it's meaning, by pushing his own ignorant version.
'Allah's WORD (BE AND IT IS)'
'be and it is' ie meaning these interprators thought/think that the Word refers to Allah's Command to create Jesus by immaculate conception in the same way Allah can create something out of nothing by His command.
Even if this is their own interpretation, they have no right writing it in brackets like they do, to influence the masses. This is DEMONIC as it takes a special kind of egomaniac to think he knows better than Allah and His prophet...
and yet, how come im the only one questioning this?
another thing they purposely do is they will write it as 'a word of Allah'
not THE WORD OF ALLAH, only 'a word of Allah.
which is funny because Mohsin Khan's version says 'the word from Allah'
subtle ways these demons twisted the Quran in it's meaning so openly...
in fact, the urdu ones are even worse they don't even use the term Kalam/Word they just
9. وہ ابھی عبادت گاہ میں کھڑے نماز ہی پڑھ رہے تھے کہ فرشتوں نے آواز دی کہ (زکریا) خدا تمہیں یحییٰ کی بشارت دیتا ہے جو خدا کے فیض یعنی (عیسیٰ) کی تصدیق کریں گے اور سردار ہوں گے اور عورتوں سے رغبت نہ رکھنے والے اور (خدا کے) پیغمبر (یعنی) نیکو کاروں میں ہوں گے
9. They were still standing in the synagogue praying when the angels called out saying, (Zachariah) God gives you the good news of Yahya, who will confirm the grace of God, i.e. (Jesus) and will be a leader and will not be attracted to women. The keepers and (God's) messengers (i.e.) will be among the righteous
4)
those verses which refer to the corruption of the Torah
nowhere does it say the new testament or the gospel was corrupted, it only refers to the Torah in the context. It says 'people of the book' but in the context of both Quran and hadith it is only the Torah that was referred to. Even then he corruption aspect was not the text itself, but to false interpretations.
Just as it says in Jeremiah 'the lying hand of the scribes has corrupted it'.
in the hadith when prophet Mohammed was angry towards his companions reading the Torah, it was because they were reading arabic translations given to them by a local jewish rabbi. Even then the prophet did not say 'it is corrupt'. He was careful and told them 'you might say a part of it is corrupt, but it is actually Allah's Word or you might say it is Allah's Word but it is corrupt'. Ie he wanted them to avoid mistakes entirely, so it was better for them not to read what they were given in arabic.
It turns out Caliph Umar however used to read an arabic translation of the Torah aswell as trust a jewish guide/historian to teach him jewish history. So even he as the prophet's companion did so....perhaps he had asked the prophet for permission at a later point that isnt recorded in any hadith?
contexts do go missing like that and typically muslims should try to understand the bigger picture.
Here's the main issue though, if you want to go with the argument that the bible is corrupt, what is your excuse when the Quran says the bible is Allah's Word, Truth etc all in the present tense of the 7th century?
it is insane that when they're made aware of this, they try to move the goalposts and make a different type of argument...
like "there was some scripture then, even in the time of the prophet but it doesnt exist anymore"
the most common argument is an INSTANT
"bu5t daty king jameseses doe but da american version, der so many"
I react very badly to that answer because as soon as they start saying it, I end up cursing them right there..
eg "you dumb cunt, the same argument applies to Quran TRANSLATIONS".
5)
the new testament term 'Lord Jesus Christ'
in psalm 110, the term is adoni whereas God alone is ADONAI. So Jesus is adoni and there is a distinction between the two.
in arabic, just like english, there is only one word, Rabb, Lord.
In a context where the christians had made Jesus into God and called him 'THE LORD (adonai) through their ignorance, prophet Mohammad naturally was bound to reject the term 'rabb' when it was given to him. He said 'call me Syed/master, only Allah is RABB'.
So..obviously it is in the interest of muslims to safeguard this term. That is fine. However that is not an excuse to twist their interpretations/translations of the Quran through this verse
And she, in whose house he was, asked of him an evil act. She bolted the doors and said: Come! He said: I seek refuge in Allah! Lo! he is my lord, who hath treated me honourably. Lo! wrong-doers never prosper.
(سورة يوسف, Yusuf, Chapter #12, Verse #23)
in the context, Joseph was referring to his slave master as 'his rabb' (as in, in arabic this is how it translates). Joseph was speaking a different language obv, i dont know what he spoke in his time in egypt but you can imagine the term for 'lord' being the same as adoni. Ie Joseph was not referring to Allah/God.
Yet look at muslim translations and interpretations and they quite often literally change the verse to suggest Joseph was referring to Allah.
in their mind they think it is okay to literally change the meaning because in their discretion 'it's better than confusing people.
who gave them that right? no one. they made a personal choice to literally 'write the book with their own hands and say 'this is from Allah''.
instead of muslims focusing on educating muslims on these matters (rabb/lord/adoni), they preferred to just change the Quran in it's meaning via translations so muslims would not even be aware of the underlying term (adoni) which directly relates to Jesus.
it appears these muslims attempted to sabotage a truth which actually not only benefits islam's argument, it also actually goes a long way in waking these lost xtians up from their ignorance.
however the bigger issue to me is how 12:23 is so cheapily altered and corrupted by the translators whilst muslims are silent.
6)
Deuteronomy 18:18 is NOT about prophet Mohammed.
the song of songs 'machmad' is NOT the name of Mohammed....
i know exactly which parts of prophecy are literally mentioned in the bible and fulfilled by the prophet or by islam. However the fact muslims have also lied only discredits us.
The Quran says that the jews will find Mohammed described in their own Torah, the UMMI/UNLETTERED ONE.
this is interesting because nothing like that exists in the Torah.
However, it opens up a bigger problem for jews..
if Mohammed is clearly fulfilling prophecies as a gentile, it can only happen if the messiah has already been...
and hence if the jews were to challenge Deuteronomy 18:18 as an example where the word is UMMATI (one from the nation) (ie ummati=from the nation ummi=not from the nation)...they'd have to admit 'he's already come', hence it points the way to Jesus.
There's also the fact that Leviticus 26 contains the punishments theme, which is central to the story of prophet Mohammad, in that he is a literal manifestation of 7th century JEWISH MESSIANICISM courtesy of the sassanian-jewish era.
Few people appreciate just how important those events were in the jewish story. in their attempt to prove Jesus wrong, they sought to receive the messiah in their own image....and as it says in Leviticus 26 "you will plant a seed in vain but not enjoy it's fruit" thus this archetype came in the form of Mohammad. This even includes the dualism of the messiah ben joseph, suffering servant archetype aswell as the davidic conquerer arrchetype which Mohammad himself represented via Mecca and Madina.
However this is not at all a diss, it means that even the shadow of the messianic archetype is greater than all the previous prophets, greater than all the beast systems......and yet the fact they cannot receive this archetype is because the real one has already been.
Mohammed was passive in Mecca....but it is no match for who Jesus was...Jesus went all the way to the grave...
Prophet Mohammed migrated to Madina, whilst Jesus ascended to paradise
Prophet Mohammad became a ruler and conquerer in Madina, putting polythiesm in arabia to an end. Jesus is going to conquer and rule the whole earth.
As a muslim, this is not in anyway a diss towards prophet Mohammad. He himself, did not ever claim to be 'the greatest', his natural humility was such that he did not even wish to compare himself to Moses. The only reason why muslims were raised to think Mohammad is the greatest of all, is because his bloodline who are 'our jews' have programmed muslims to believe it, because such a belief benefits them.
The entire theme of the messianic archetype is central to the islam story. Everything islam became is what Jews wanted to be. As Paul said 'by their tresspass the gentiles are reckoned'.
7)
The identity of the Holy Spirit
Say: The holy spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).
(سورة النحل, An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #102)
any christian who reads this should understand, the Quran itself says it is DELIVERED from Allah through the Holy Spirit.
think of John 16's comforter/the holy spirit.
literally the Quran and prophet Mohammad are the fulfillment of that.
'not speak on his own but what he hears'
'bring you ALL THE TRUTH'
'tell you what is yet to come (prophecy, as in a new prophet).
The holy spirit acts through humans.
Christians can hate islam all they want but they should tread lightly, because they know Jesus promised the holy spirit would bring all the truth, prophecy etc and that literally means a scripture and a propet.
they may not like muslims (i dont blame them when muslims lie as ive detailed), may wish to not acknowledge islam, but islam has proven i tself by fulfilling key prophecies, defeating or ending the 4 beasts of daniel, having the wilderness and ishmael connection...and no other ummah/community/nation of any prophet has accomplished what the ummah of prophet Mohammad has in that respect. Or the fact that not one of the bible prophets even with greater number of followers (like Moses or David) could accomplish what Mohammed did, in less time...all from the wilderness.
when Jesus told his faithful to preach the Gospel to the entire world, causing them to go by the holy spirit and speak in tongues....by extention islam was already a done deal..because Jesus thought of all nations and the Holy Spirit's job was to give all people THE ENTIRE TRUTH and the future via prophecies...
literally a gentile prophet and a scripture......which literally had to lead to the promise made to Ishmael.
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