Compelled belief in Islam

[Lizard King]

You accepting or declining whether something is true is irrelevant. Islam is clear with its rulings and in this case with Apostasy/leaving Islam, there is actually absolutely nothing in The Quran which supports it. It is entirely reliant on Hadith. I think this is why there are a lot of different opinions on this. Personally, I’m of the opinion that death isn’t necessary eventhough it’s an option for the grave cases. This is because the prophet pbuh didn’t kill anyone for leaving Islam, despite many swaying between faiths and changing their minds I’ve linked in an earlier post. Also, The Quran does not support or mention it. This is probably why you won’t find a lot of cases (if any) of nations killing people for leaving Islam. If they do, it had to have been a big threat to the stability and peace of that nation.

The prophet pbuh. LOL.

 

[lightseeker]

Yh I can’t stand Phipps so I’ll be leaving the discussion. His points have been addressed numerous times yet he continues to post rubbish, out of context, ignorant statements.

Hope you find what I posted of use. @lightseeker

thanks Haich i appreciate your input

I don’t see where Brunei said leaving a faith for another is punishable by death. It is the public declaration of leaving Islam AND condemning or calling against it with provocation which is usually considered apostasy. The Quran supports the idea of one leaving the faith for another as there is no compulsion to believe in Islam.

Again, the conversion of someone is different to someone leaving Islam and making a life publicly condemning and preaching against it. If I leave Islam tomorrow, I won’t be ‘put to death’. If I leave Islam, start a YouTube channel and bash my country and Islam constantly, I’d be tried in a court of law and it would be up to them to determine, if my rhetoric is that much of a threat that I deserve to be killed or lashed. I mean The West actively carry out discreet killings or imprisonment, torture etc for those that oppose their foreign policy. I don’t see this as any different.

I don't see that distinction in the Brunei legal code for example - the law is a Muslim who declares himself non-Muslim is to be put to death. They don't give a threshold of how much public action or speech is allowed before death must be imposed which I would assume is covered under blasphemy law, not apostasy.
You personally wouldn't be put to death because you live in the UK where that is illegal, however in a Muslim majority country, yes you would be.
The West carrying out extra judicial killings, torture, or imprisonment isn't a justification because those governments do so unjustly, not thereby giving justification to other injustices, and furthermore, that is different than a private decision whether or not a person individually chooses to believe the tenants of a religion which is an intimate personal matter.

So you accept the west, with its collective sense of ‘let’s go to war for the collective good of our people’ is fascist

Yes I can't think of a single western war that I support

Islam is clear with its rulings and in this case with Apostasy/leaving Islam, there is actually absolutely nothing in The Quran which supports it. It is entirely reliant on Hadith. I think this is why there are a lot of different opinions on this. Personally, I’m of the opinion that death isn’t necessary eventhough it’s an option for the grave cases. This is because the prophet pbuh didn’t kill anyone for leaving Islam, despite many swaying between faiths and changing their minds I’ve linked in an earlier post. Also, The Quran does not support or mention it. This is probably why you won’t find a lot of cases (if any) of nations killing people for leaving Islam. If they do, it had to have been a big threat to the stability and peace of that nation

There are thousands of cases you can find of people being put to death for apostasy in since the 1980s up until current times, and it's not for threatening to topple the government but simply declaring oneself to be non Muslim. If there is no justification for it in the Quran even then thousands of people have been killed without justification from commen sense conscience standpoint or from the scripture.

I think because there is no definitive law in The Quran which stipulates that those who publicly leave and declare themselves non Muslim should be put to death, we have to look at the Hadith where this comes from. There are millions of Hadith, about 10-15% would be considered legitimate. This is because our standard of grading Hadith is very stringent. Any weak link in the oration and it’s dismissed entirely.

Here is another opinion, which I’d say reflects my stance.

You must check the Hadith back to the larger rule found in The Qur'an, if The Qur'an does notdirectly support the injunction found in this Hadith, then that means without question that the Hadith is for a very narrow and very explicit situation that most probably will never be relevant to you.

Thus, when The Prophet says that those who leave Islam should be put to death, he is talking about a very specific time, when the Muslims were living in Yathrib (Medina) and were being attacked and besieged by the Meccans.

Let us remember that what constituted the community of the early Muslims was not tribal, blood ties, or ethnic; the community that was established by The Prophet was predicated on belief (among the Muslims) and as a conscious, willing union between those of other faiths (namely Jews, Christians, and Pagans of Yathrib [Medina]).


So, when we think of “religion” today, we think of it as something separate to our nationality, tribe, ethnicity, etc. People can be a German Buddhist, or a Japanese Christian, or a Argentinian Follower of The Church of Diego, but during the time of The Prophet, a person’s status as a “Muslim” was the equivalent to what we consider our national identity. The governmental structure that a Muslim was subject and loyal to was that of Islam, just like, an American citizen is subject and loyal to the United States government.

So, within the Hadith that refer to The Prophet sanctioning death as a penalty towards those who leave Islam, this is not an issue of someone saying: “Oohhh yahhhh I’m like, not mazlam any moreeee, just not feelin’ it anymore, lolz, let’s watch Twilight.”

It is not the simplistic notion of leaving a religion, as we understand it today, rather, it should be understood as someone committing high treason, a crime that is punishable by death in the United States, and many other countries. This is different to “regular” treason, or petty treason, which is usually punished with life in prison. The difference between “high treason” and “treason” is whether the nation is at war, and in many countries, high treason is punishable by death, while treason is not.

So, the context of The Prophet saying that those who leave Islam should be put to death, it is not because they are “leaving Islam,” it is because they are betraying their community, which is defined by their acceptance of the tenants of Islam, much like the American community is not defined by any ethnic ties, but by one’s acceptance of the tenants of the US Constitution. Thus, this Hadith is within the context of (1) War time, (2) High Treason, and (3) Does not abrogate The Qur'an, but, is the result of a need deemed necessary by The Prophet, applies to this very narrow situation that he was in.

So, it is such a narrow context that it can almost be rendered meaningless. Today we do not organize our states by virtue of religion, we do so by the boundaries of the state, either in a geographic and/or national sense, so by saying that “death is penalty for those who turn to other religions,” we are not really referring to the same thing, which adds to the confusion.

Alright well that make sense however to carry on a limited and narrow directive to a universal context is unjust and in conclusion leads to compelled belief.

 

[Lizard King]

I will be joining Islam about the same time I get poisonous vaccine and the boosters which is never LOL.

 

[Lizard King]

I've noticed a new trend around here of white people claiming that somehow because they are Muslims that somehow makes it more acceptable. Not only does this smack of some weird racism it also discounts the fact that white people are capable of a knife attack too. Although to be honest I haven't seen any white people stabbing any little girls at Taylor Swift Dance Parties.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I've noticed a new trend around here of white people claiming that somehow because they are Muslims that somehow makes it more acceptable. Not only does this smack of some weird racism it also discounts the fact that white people are capable of a knife attack too. Although to be honest I haven't seen any white people stabbing any little girls at Taylor Swift Dance Parties.

Caucus mountains are home to some of the Whitest people on Earth, many who claim Muslim. They are just like the reast of these fake-Muslims and their behavior confirms this. Converts only, the rest aint even Muslim.

 

[Daze]

You’re right you both have a lot in common.

Lightseeker where do moral laws come from? If you ran society is it Christianity or some kind neo-pagan volk Germanism?

daze thank you for being honest enough to be a open theocrat

As Toxic has mentioned before, there are a lot of minor differences between Christianity and Islam. Such as Nephilim. Muslims don't believe angels can disobey God so Nephilim don't exist. Stuff like this is minor because it does not affect one's final destination.

But there is only one major discrepancy between the 2 paths and that is the position of Jesus. Muslims consider him a noble prophet, the messiah. Christians have made him into god. If you remove this notion. Christinaity at large is Islam.

Before Toxic left, I remember telling her in pm that Islam is essentially the Old Testament and she agreed. We still hold to laws that Christians have long since abandoned, like eating pork for an obvious example. Condemned in Biblical 32 verses yet eaten by 95%

 

[Daze]

Yh I can’t stand Phipps so I’ll be leaving the discussion. His points have been addressed numerous times yet he continues to post rubbish, out of context, ignorant statements.

Hope you find what I posted of use. @lightseeker

They hear what they want to hear. All of them. Ask older members like @Orwell's mentor here. I've gone many rounds with most of them until I figured out how fruitless all of it is.

Banana's in the ears for the lot of them. It's not what you say that matters, only that you acknowledge their fever dreams are some kind of reality.


Lightseeker is desperate to paint Islam as bloodthirsty, even though It doesn't come near Christianity in this regard.

Body counts
178 million Christianity.
32 million Islamic.


I will link a comprehensive study detailing where the numbers come from.
For those who are interested here's a pdf.

..or if you prefer, the video version.

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[lightseeker]

They hear what they want to hear. All of them. Ask older members like @Orwell's mentor here. I've gone many rounds with most of them until I figured out how fruitless all of it is.

Banana's in the ears for the lot of them. It's not what you say that matters, only that you acknowledge their fever dreams are some kind of reality.


Lightseeker is desperate to paint Islam as bloodthirsty, even though It doesn't come near Christianity in this regard.

Body counts
178 million Christianity.
32 million Islamic.
View attachment 109615

I will link a comprehensive study detailing where the numbers come from.
For those who are interested here's a pdf.

..or if you prefer, the video version.

TikTok - Make Your Day

Do you have anything to add in furtherance of the topic of this thread?

 

[Daze]

Do you have anything to add in furtherance of the topic of this thread?

No, I said everything I need to in Haich's profile post. This thread is nothing more than you grandstanding and to be honest, it's beneath you. Makes you look extremely hypocritical.

Especially when your own religion calls to kill the apostate. Hell, even if it's your own wife or kid.

 

[lightseeker]

No

If you have nothing to add, why post?
Islam compels belief. That which you originally asserted is untrue.

 

[George Clinton]

I believe you have me confused with someone else, I don’t hold Russia in any special regard.

Stay on topic georgie.

Volk or St Peter?

As Toxic has mentioned before, there are a lot of minor differences between Christianity and Islam. Such as Nephilim. Muslims don't believe angels can disobey God so Nephilim don't exist. Stuff like this is minor because it does not affect one's final destination.

But there is only one major discrepancy between the 2 paths and that is the position of Jesus. Muslims consider him a noble prophet, the messiah. Christians have made him into god. If you remove this notion. Christinaity at large is Islam.

Before Toxic left, I remember telling her in pm that Islam is essentially the Old Testament and she agreed. We still hold to laws that Christians have long since abandoned, like eating pork for an obvious example. Condemned in Biblical 32 verses yet eaten by 95%

I would not oppose a resolution that called for the execution of every military age male who professes Islam. I’m just saying

 

[polymoog]

Apostasy is concerned with the outward, loud, public declaration of scolding and disrespecting Islam, as Islam isn’t just a faith, it is a law with sharia jurisprudence.

no free speech.

If I leave Islam, start a YouTube channel and bash my country and Islam constantly, I’d be tried in a court of law and it would be up to them to determine, if my rhetoric is that much of a threat that I deserve to be killed or lashed.

haich, doesnt this lack of freedom of speech bother you? i find it repugnant and unacceptable anywhere. if truth fears no investigation, then banning hateful rhetoric shouldnt matter at all.

 

[lightseeker]

Volk or St Peter?


I would not oppose a resolution that called for the execution of every military age male who professes Islam. I’m just saying

Given the choice of the two I'd go saint Pete, Italy is pretty nice. Belief isn't compelled with threats of death either so you can come too

 

[phipps]

The denial from muslims about Islam compelling belief and intolerance of other faiths confounds me. These are true facts about Islam.

 

[Lizard King]

The denial from muslims about Islam compelling belief and intolerance of other faiths confounds me. These are true facts about Islam.

They are a Trojan Horse just waiting to pull out the knife when the time is right.

 

[Lizard King]

no free speech.


haich, doesnt this lack of freedom of speech bother you? i find it repugnant and unacceptable anywhere. if truth fears no investigation, then banning hateful rhetoric shouldnt matter at all.

Haich is too busy watching Black Lies Matters videos lecturing to dumb white girls on how they need to lower their knickers for racial justice LOL.

 

[Daze]

I would not oppose a resolution that called for the execution of every military age male who professes Islam. I’m just saying

This is because you're indoctrinated by Zionist media. They own 98% of the US. You're in Europe, yes?
From what I've seen in the UK, it's no better.





It is clearly an obsession.






Indoctrination, such as your 70,000 whatever claim in Haich's thread.
In America, we have something called the TSA. It's airline security installed after 9/11.

Guess how many terrorists they've caught in 23 years?

Go on… I'll wait....

Yep... ZERO!


ISIS was exposed 15 years ago. Numerous false flags pretending to involve Muslims have all be shown to be BS and when the shooter is shown to be atheist, Christian, w/e the story completely disappears. I mean what ever happened to the Jew tunnels? Not only was that story shut down, it was torpedoed.

Completely buried because such media coverage is actually a threat to the establishment. So are Muslims, this is why they are demonized at every turn.


People claim to be upon the truth here, but just the hatred for Islam from most of you (I mean this thread is just more proof of that) shows they couldn't be more drunk on the establishments kool-aid.

As I often say, 1/4 of mankind are Muslim. How is it you have managed to keep your head for so many years?

What happens Colonel if we take 4 people, make 1 of them a serial killer, and leave them all in a house for a month? What do you possibly think the end result will be?

This is what we call common sense. Maybe you can apply it at some point?


The simple believe anything, but the prudent give thought to their steps. (Proverbs 14:15)

If you have nothing to add, why post?
Islam compels belief. That which you originally asserted is untrue.

Didn't notice I was talking to you, nor that you owned these forums and have become supreme dictator.

There is nothing to add. If you were an honest man you'd admit a completely non-Christian with zero knowledge of your faith and an ex-Christian are very different in many ways. But over the years truth has always taken a back seat to your bias.


I mean mad dog likes your post. Nuff said?



I've learned over the years the people here are not interested in truth. Only to spread their own indoctrination.
This is why i no longer engage and have ignored most of the people I've argued with. Tempo, Maldimmer, the Russian with bad English and so on.

Feel free to troll my threads. Lord knows many here have made it their lifes mission.

I am done with this thread so don't expect a reply. I don't like to keep ignorance on top. Especially when its this hypocritical.


Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye (Matthew 7: 3-5)

 

[AspiringSoul]

In islam, capital punishment is carried out by the state. not even a random mullah in a village can dictate capital punishment, if he does, he'll be subject to the same punishment.

i guess apostasy is just like faggotry, it is hated but if you keep to yourself and don't go trying to bring harm on your own people you will be left alone.
plenty of apostates exist in muslim countries. a large portion of the pakistani upper class have been athiest or agnostic for a long time. Even when Mohammed hijab went to pakistan he was complaining about how many of them there were.
How come they arent getting killed? it should be open season...but no people leave them alone. you will see awful mullahs from various parts of pakistan spewing hatred against minorities and citing blasphemy law to incite a mob against random hindus..but most people in pakistan dislike those types. their following tends to be the lowest of the low uneducated who are easily controlled.

If you're talking about general intolerance then let me simplify things for you
unlike christianity which latched onto the roman empire and hence got the benefit of a collective subculture and mindset as Rome was converted en masse, islam actually spread to into different lands, cultures, languages, religions, organically.
when the whore of babylon system installed this mossad movement called Isis into iraq and syria, all of a sudden kurds, yazidis, druze and all types of small minorities fled. the fact they even existed in the midst of muslims for so long itself tells you about muslim tolerance.
it took western zio hands to dislodge those minorities. They were safe with us.
jews were safe with muslims, so were christians.
hindus are hit and miss and that's because india always had warring factions and kingdom's popping up. there were in fact often muslim vs muslim wars, or hindu vs hindu...there were muslims fighting for hindus and then sikhs and hindus fighting for muslims too.

now if we're talking about modern times and comparing current muslims to current christians....there's certainly a lot of intolerance from christians in africa that's for fucking damn sure, just as there is intolerance till this day in the US where muslims have been murdered by their faith quite often.

so what the fuck are you peices of shit talking about? i swear i own every single one of you cunts.
not a christian living can out logic me.

 

[AspiringSoul]

American pmc's sent to iraq and afghanistan literally are christian right wing self proclaimed crusaders.

talk about that.

 

[Haich]

so what the fuck are you peices of shit talking about? i swear i own every single one of you cunts.
not a christian living can out logic me

What a great example of Islam you are. Aspiring Arsehole.