The Triune god and paganism.

Haich

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I believe in HIs death and resurrection, that He was prophesied in the Old Testament.

The Bible says He is the son of God. If by "literal" we mean the way the rest of us were created, then no, the Bible doesnt say that. But it says He is God's only begotten son.

I know many say they are co equal, but that would involve denying the scriptures. I will trust the Bible over a bunch of catholics. (And no, the catholics didnt edit the Bible, because if they had they would have made it actually agree with their teachings)
I agree that they’re not co equal as Jesus prays to God but also admits he doesn’t know everything. That clearly shows there is no equation between Jesus and The Father.

Do you believe he will return and why? We believe Jesus will return to defeat the anti-Christ and rule the believers.
 
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I think I’m not explaining what I want to say clearly as it’s quite complicated.

I’ll try again. You have two people, one Christian and one Muslim. They both pray to God to get a job they’ve applied for. They both get it and are happy. Why were both prayers answered? What did the Holy Spirit add to the prayer of the Christian?
Nothing.
We don't pray to the Holy Spirit.

I guess it's more like if the Bible doesn't explicitly mention something because it didn't exist back then, how would a Christian know if it is acceptable? How would a Muslim?

For example, as i understand in Islam all music is forbidden, but are tv shows allowed? If so, why?


As a Christian, i feel uneasy about listening to most music, even though the Bible doesn't specifically forbid it. For me, that is my answer. A different Christian may genuinely believe it is ok, that is his answer. God answers each of us depending on what is best for that individual because He knows best.

I believe that is the Holy Spirit's guidance. Goimg agaisnt our conscience would be a form of denying the Holy Spirit.

What the scriptures say is to not set a stumbling block before others, so it would be uncharitable to flaunt our liberty before others. The issue with society now is not the scriptures, it's that people don't follow them and they are not preached about.
 
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Do you believe he will return and why? We believe Jesus will return to defeat the anti-Christ and rule the believers.
Yes.
He will rule on Earth over a period of peace, then the Earth will be destroyed after satan rises up once more to wage war against God one more time. The unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the city of new Jerusalem will come down and believers will live with God there forever.
 

Haich

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Nothing.
We don't pray to the Holy Spirit.

I guess it's more like if the Bible doesn't explicitly mention something because it didn't exist back then, how would a Christian know if it is acceptable? How would a Muslim?

For example, as i understand in Islam all music is forbidden, but are tv shows allowed? If so, why?


As a Christian, i feel uneasy about listening to most music, even though the Bible doesn't specifically forbid it. For me, that is my answer. A different Christian may genuinely believe it is ok, that is his answer. God answers each of us depending on what is best for that individual because He knows best.

I believe that is the Holy Spirit's guidance. Goimg agaisnt our conscience would be a form of denying the Holy Spirit.

What the scriptures say is to not set a stumbling block before others, so it would be uncharitable to flaunt our liberty before others. The issue with society now is not the scriptures, it's that people don't follow them and they are not preached about.
I know that you don’t pray to it but doesn’t it ‘guide’ you in your decisions or prayers? That’s why I asked what’s the point of it if the Muslim and Christian prayer gets answered. What did the Christian benefit by commanding the Holy Spirit?

No that’s not the case. There are a lot of misconceptions about this topic. To keep it short, there’s nothing that specifies that TV or Films are forbidden or allowed in the Quran, simply because these things didn’t exist back then. However, due to the explicit nature of most shows and films and how there’s always an absence of parents or an element of magic in kids shows/films, scholars advise people to be wary of the consumption of such mediums. It’s not forbidden, it’s just not encouraged and ultimately it’s up to the individual/parents to make that call. Personally, I allow my children to watch cartoons I’ve vetted to make sure there isn’t anything dodgy and I explain to them we can’t watch some things because of x,y & z. My daughter is 3 and loves princesses but there is a component of magic in most princess shows so we don’t watch them and when we do come across it, I just explain why we can’t watch it. I personally don’t believe sheltering or getting rid of things in their entirety helps as it makes that thing more desirable.

There is no direct verse which specifies that music in its entirety is forbidden in Islam. It’s a nuanced and contested issue with various opinions.

The phrase used in the verse below is ‘idle talks’ which is an all encompassing word. I won’t get into Arabic root words but you can have a word with multiple meanings and this is an example of that

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allah…” [Luqman 31:6]

A commentary on the above verse:
Al-Sa’di (May Allah Have Mercy on Him) while explaining the Ayah said: this includes all manner of haram speech, all idle talk and falsehood, and all nonsense that encourages kufr and disobedience; the words of those who say things to refute the truth and argue in support of falsehood to defeat the truth; and backbiting, slander, lies, insults and curses; the singing and musical instruments of the Shaytan; and musical instruments which are of no spiritual or worldly benefit. [Tafseer al-Saadi, 6/150]

“[Allah said to Iblis:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allah's disobedience)…” [al-Isra 17:64]

Do you then wonder at this recitation (the Quran)? And you laugh at it and weep not, Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)” [al-Najm 53:59-61]

This Hadith shows musical instruments aren’t allowed:
"The Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds and to guide the people. He ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute, other instruments of music, all games of vice, idol (worship) and all practices of the days of ignorance." [Mustadrakul Wasa'il, Chapter 79]

This Hadith shows it’s okay to use your voice only as a form of music (no instruments).

Narrated By’ Aisha : That once Abu Bakr came to her on the day of ‘Eid-ul-Fitr or ‘Eid ul Adha while the Prophet was with her and there were two girl singers with her, singing songs of the Ansar about the day of Buath. Abu Bakr said twice. “Musical instrument of Satan!” But the Prophet said, “Leave them Abu Bakr, for every nation has an ‘Id (i.e. festival) and this day is our ‘Id.”) Sahih Bukhari.

A Hadith prohibiting musical instruments
Among my Ummah, there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91]

With regards to instruments, a daf which is a drum can be used on Eid and celebrations like weddings. So in sum, you have three categories of Muslims with regards to the issue of music, singing and instruments.

1. Those who accept it’s fine to listen and produce music, use instruments and sing.
2. Those who accept instruments and music are forbidden but believe voice songs are fine.
3. Those who believe everything should be avoided in its entirety.

Personally, I follow the 2nd opinion. I haven’t listened to music in over a decade. It’s not played in my household. My kids like nasheeds which are voice only songs about topics in Islam. I’m not a fan because it’s still musical but it’s better than what’s out there. My parents were of the first opinion and we grew up with lots of music in the household. Everyone is different I guess.

So your conscience is the holy spirit? But we all have a conscience.
 

Haich

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Yes.
He will rule on Earth over a period of peace, then the Earth will be destroyed after satan rises up once more to wage war against God one more time. The unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the city of new Jerusalem will come down and believers will live with God there forever.
So what was the point of his crucifixion? and what happens to those before Jesus (so the people who believed in God before Jesus’ birth).
 
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With regards to instruments, a daf which is a drum can be used on Eid and celebrations like weddings. So in sum, you have three categories of Muslims with regards to the issue of music, singing and instruments.

1. Those who accept it’s fine to listen and produce music, use instruments and sing.
2. Those who accept instruments and music are forbidden but believe voice songs are fine.
3. Those who believe everything should be avoided in its entirety.
That is so interesting that out of anything drums are allowed.

There's been some pastors ive istened to who have said that music with drums is forbidden but other kinds is fine. Almost the exact opposite.

(The rationales included the child sacrificing pagans beating drums to drown out the sounds of screaming, and that music with a backbeat encourages carnality)

I have a question: do those who fall into the first category think any kind of music is fine? As in, is it all moraly equivalent?


So your conscience is the holy spirit? But we all have a conscience
That's how i understand it. I know there are some Christians who believe in speaking in tongues and stuff like that being the Holy Spirit so i would let them explain that. I just know that its not biblical to require speaking in tongues as proof of salvation, but there are some who believe otherwise.

Regarding a conscience i really don't know how to explain my experience, or how much im comfortable blurting out on the internet. I'll just say that people can change with the help of God, and the Holy Spirit is there to help us live according to God's will.

So what was the point of his crucifixion? and what happens to those before Jesus (so the people who believed in God before Jesus’ birth).
The point of the crucifixion was Jesus Christ's ONE TIME sacrifice. Instead of having to do animal sacrifice in order to atone for some sins (as some were unable to be atoned for), Jesus paid the full price once and for all.

There are different beliefs among Christians about those who lived and died before Jesus came. The Bible tells us of righteous people from before Him, so they were saved through faith. There already was awareness of ressurection of the dead in the time before Jesus' death and ressurection, as evidenced by the disputes between the pharisees and sadduccees.
 

Haich

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That is so interesting that out of anything drums are allowed.

There's been some pastors ive istened to who have said that music with drums is forbidden but other kinds is fine. Almost the exact opposite.

(The rationales included the child sacrificing pagans beating drums to drown out the sounds of screaming, and that music with a backbeat encourages carnality)

I have a question: do those who fall into the first category think any kind of music is fine? As in, is it all moraly equivalent?



That's how i understand it. I know there are some Christians who believe in speaking in tongues and stuff like that being the Holy Spirit so i would let them explain that. I just know that its not biblical to require speaking in tongues as proof of salvation, but there are some who believe otherwise.

Regarding a conscience i really don't know how to explain my experience, or how much im comfortable blurting out on the internet. I'll just say that people can change with the help of God, and the Holy Spirit is there to help us live according to God's will.


The point of the crucifixion was Jesus Christ's ONE TIME sacrifice. Instead of having to do animal sacrifice in order to atone for some sins (as some were unable to be atoned for), Jesus paid the full price once and for all.

There are different beliefs among Christians about those who lived and died before Jesus came. The Bible tells us of righteous people from before Him, so they were saved through faith. There already was awareness of ressurection of the dead in the time before Jesus' death and ressurection, as evidenced by the disputes between the pharisees and sadduccees.
I can’t speak for everyone but you have Muslims who fulfill their daily prayers and observe Ramadan but they consider Rap and HipHop to be okay. It really is a spectrum of beliefs and ideas. They know morally it promotes things which are ungodly and sinful, they’ll never argue that it’s great but they’re more interested in having a good time I guess. They unbeknownst to them end up adopting a lot of the attitudes and morals that are promoted in the music they listen to.
Music is a very big issue for all people to be honest, they’re just quite ignorant of how it affects them. I personally believe it’s a way of Jinn controlling or influencing you and don’t see any good in it.

Speaking in tongues- I won’t bother asking because it just looks weird and borderline possession to me.

so what happens to Christians who still sin despite being saved? How do they ‘pay’ for the sins?

Ok it makes sense that they were saved through faith.
 
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I can’t speak for everyone but you have Muslims who fulfill their daily prayers and observe Ramadan but they consider Rap and HipHop to be okay. It really is a spectrum of beliefs and ideas. They know morally it promotes things which are ungodly and sinful, they’ll never argue that it’s great but they’re more interested in having a good time I guess. They unbeknownst to them end up adopting a lot of the attitudes and morals that are promoted in the music they listen to.
Music is a very big issue for all people to be honest, they’re just quite ignorant of how it affects them. I personally believe it’s a way of Jinn controlling or influencing you and don’t see any good in it.
Yeah, but for example there's Christian rappers, like this guy named bryson gray. Back before twitter started forcing a login to scroll i used to read his twitter feed and found myself agreeing with 99% of his tweets. His lyrics are in line with Christianity, but it would be dishonest for me to not acknowledge that the music itself causes some form of ... i don't know what to call it... excitement? dopamine release?

In the Bible* there is the concept of the flesh and the spirit being opposed to each other, and everything is a decision of whether to please the spirit or the flesh. Exciting music is pleasing the flesh, despite godly lyrics.

* i didn't say "in Christianity" because it is quite possible that some people have never been preached about this subject, and dont read their Bible or read one of the new versions, so they don't know. I don't judge them.


Speaking in tongues- I won’t bother asking because it just looks weird and borderline possession to me.
I tend to agree. Many are faking to fit in with their church, and other videos i've seen look demonic.

If it recall correctly there is a forum member who claims that he has experienced this. It would be nice to get his input.

so what happens to Christians who still sin despite being saved? How do they ‘pay’ for the sins?
Well, we all sin. Everybody. It is the human condition. But with the help of the Holy Spirit we transform our lives from being in unrepentant sin to living a life pleasing to God. At least that's how it's supposed to be - some dont have the capacity. God knows all, so He will judge us accordingly.

While God hates ALL sin, some sins are the product of a series of deliberate actions (for example, in order to commit adultery the individual would first have to seek out either a partner or a visual, then make the conscious decision to proceed with the next step, and so on) while others are a quick moment of unawareness (such as thinking an uncharitable thought or saying a harsh word). God works in us to help us overcome all tyoes of sin, but some behaviours are more engraved in us than others. Thats is why many preach that it is better to come to God as a child, and the older someone is the harder it is (but all things are possible with God).

Another thing i've read is that if someone is saved but does not make any efforts to grow in the faith and is in danger of apostasy, in His mercy God may shorten his life before this can occur. It's called "sin unto death", but i would need to do more research about the origins of this doctrine.

The Bible teaches that we have different rewards in heaven, but that is not something i've studied too much. I don't focus so much on rewards as on testimony.

I hope i answered the question.
 

Flarepath

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.. as i understand in Islam all music is forbidden, but are tv shows allowed?..

Christian churchman Terry Waite was once held hostage in a Lebanon house by a muslim group and said they watched TV, but when Benny Hill and his scantily-clad women came on, they switched it off..:)
 

Haich

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Music has a very profound affect on us. It causes us to cry, to rejoice and to ponder. It’s almost intoxicating to the soul if you think about it. Personally I like to have control over my faculties and thoughts so being music free has been so liberating and calming.

You might be interested to know the origins of music and partying. It goes back to the Prophet Seth, son of Adam. After the incident between Cain & Abel, the families and progeny of both men were ordered to live separately. Here’s the rest of the story, it’s such an interesting take on things.


it’s important to note that Seth isn’t mentioned in The Quran but there’s Hadith confirming his prophethood. Also this story I’m about to link is based on old scriptures that scholars have stated we take with a pinch of salt, as they haven’t been confirmed nor denied by The Quran, so this story isn’t Islamic in its origin but referenced in Islam as a possible explanation from old scripture as to how music and dancing and adultery came about. So I’m hesitant to say it’s completely concrete as the evidence isn’t from The Quran but it does allude to things which are a reality today.

 

Haich

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@Daze apologies for derailing, I’ll continue the discussion of music in Toxic’s Bible and Quran thread and stick to the trinity/paganism on this one.
 

Daze

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No, I don't mind the derailing at all. If anything, it keeps the thread near the top and gets people to think. Modern day Christianity is far from having the first 3 in 1 god.

Trolls are annoying, but discussion is perfectly fine.
 
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