"The way home or catch the fire" compared to bible/ other religions (part 6)

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Can Americans please give your thoughts?

Spacing added for easier reading.


8:39 The American-Indians had it right, until the greedy white-man went and ruined everything for them. The white-men went to America to have a fresh-start, and to leave all the things they disliked, behind them. Instead of which, they took it all with them, and then inflicted it on the Indians.

If i remember correctly, the main motivation for the settlers (the common folk) was religious freedom. If the owners of the ships or who ever financed them was greedy is a different story.

The white-men lied, and cheated the Indians; who were honourable and friendly people; that was when they weren’t murdering the Indians. The Indians welcomed the early settlers and helped them to survive, teaching them what they could and couldn’t eat, and about snakes and hunting, and survival in general.

The settlers repaid them, and their kindness, with lies, deceit and death. The Indians lived with nature, in harmony, in an idyllic existence, until the white-man arrived, and began to systematically murder them, almost to extinction, because of greed.

Eh, yes and no.

Not all natives were "friendly people", some were engaged in warfare with each other. Entire settlements of the new arrivals vanished, presumably due to native attacks (though there are some alternate theories out there as well).

I'm sure there were some settlers that were brutal as well. The truth is often nuanced, not black and white.

In all honesty, in general this sounds like "woke" revisonist history, the kind of stuff kids are being told now so they can resent their ancestors and history. Rejecting their identity as American and ripe for "global citizen" programming.

Once the black-slaves were given their freedom, they complained of being classed as second-class citizens, whilst the poor Indians, whose country it had been for thousands of years, were not even considered to be citizens, or even human+beings.

8:40 The Indians tried to teach the white-man, to live in harmony with nature, to ensure their own survival. The arrogant white settlers ignored the Indians’ advice, calling them IGNORANT savages, and continued to destroy and pollute the country, until the pollution became so bad, that they had to consider it a real threat.

It became so bad, that, in the last generation, a new subject emerged in universities; called ECOLOGY; which is about protecting nature and the environment. IN OTHER WORDS, it took the ARROGANT “intelligent” white-man, HUNDREDS OF YEARS, to find-out, that the “ignorant” savages

Yeah, i'm not denying that there were some dark times in american history...

However, the rest of this reads a globablist propaganda and goes right in line with the agendas to reduce human populations in order to save "nature".

Shock horror .... even though a lot of overgeneralisation is used in 8:41 and 8:42 I actually agree with a lot of what TWHOFTF says here!!!!
Modern corporations of all sizes and varieties has made life worse in some ways by convincing everyone they need their product.

e.g. Who really needs McDonalds in every shopping centre?
Who really needs to change their wardrobe every year (because last years' colours are so out-of-date now)?

Think of how many skills have been lost because hardly anyone makes/ creates their own things any more.

Yeah, it's moments like this, when the jah material makes sense, that can convince someone who is not well versed in scripture that he is right. Especially to conspiracy researcher type of people (like myself), who have grown disillusioned with how materialism is what made much of the elites' schemes possible.

Some of what he says is correct, but definitely not all.

 

[JoChris]

If i remember correctly, the main motivation for the settlers (the common folk) was religious freedom. If the owners of the ships or who ever financed them was greedy is a different story.


Eh, yes and no.

Not all natives were "friendly people", some were engaged in warfare with each other. Entire settlements of the new arrivals vanished, presumably due to native attacks (though there are some alternate theories out there as well).

I'm sure there were some settlers that were brutal as well. The truth is often nuanced, not black and white.

In all honesty, in general this sounds like "woke" revisonist history, the kind of stuff kids are being told now so they can resent their ancestors and history. Rejecting their identity as American and ripe for "global citizen" programming.


Yeah, i'm not denying that there were some dark times in american history...

However, the rest of this reads a globablist propaganda and goes right in line with the agendas to reduce human populations in order to save "nature".

With Australian history it is easy to do the same as AJH did with USA's history.

What I found interesting is that TWHOFTF was written in the mid 1980s but it has the social justice/ woke movement tone.
In a way before its time?

From what I remember of my early high school history classes (mid 80s), the narrative was generally justifying the British coming to colonise a land they had declared Terra nullius (have to put the convicts somewhere you know.... UK jails were full). I do not remember any class addressing Aboriginal history by itself in fact.

Yeah, it's moments like this, when the jah material makes sense, that can convince someone who is not well versed in scripture that he is right. Especially to conspiracy researcher type of people (like myself), who have grown disillusioned with how materialism is what made much of the elites' schemes possible.

Some of what he says is correct, but definitely not all.

It is frustrating because the man sometimes gives glimpses of insight and compassion. He then stuffs it up by inserting personal beliefs/ interpretation but tries to make it appear justified.

I had another thought RE 8:43

8:43 Mahatma Gandhi understood all of this, and managed to defeat the British, without aggression, PEACEFULLY, by refusing to be materialistic, and teaching his people to go back to their old ways, and not to buy British goods, which caused terrible unemployment in Britain, and forced the British to give-in, to some of Gandhi’s wishes. Gandhi won, by playing the British at their own game, and hitting them where it hurts materialistic people, i.e. in their pockets.
To my understanding Mahatma Gandhi wanted his own country to gain INDEPENDENCE from the British colonisers.
That is a very different motive to "refusing to be materialistic".

e.g. using the word "materialistic" is deliberate. It is what is often called a value-laden or judgemental word.

The judgemental/ legalistic tone is something that consistently out-of-step with the New Age belief systems.

 

[JoChris]

The following verses really are just a continuation of the previous section.

8:44 Today, in various parts of the world, the natives are cutting down vast areas of the rain-forests, destroying the forests and their natural environment and wild-life, for money, to buy material goods that they don’t REALLY need.

8:45 The rain-forests are the world’s greatest supply of life-giving OXYGEN, without which, the whole of mankind and nature will die.

8:46 OXYGEN for life, in exchange for money, and death, to buy things that they do NOT need. The rain-forests, in producing oxygen, also get rid of carbon-dioxide from the atmosphere, so that it not only doesn’t poison everyone, but also doesn’t cause a “green-house effect”, which will over-heat the planet, and change all the world’s weather-patterns (2 Esdras 5:5), melt the ice-caps and destroy everything.

AJH read a lot into the words there, to put 2 Esdras 5:5 as his reference!!!!

2 Esdras 5:5 is not in the KJV bible, but it is in the biblical apocrypha.

2 Esdras chapter 5
5 And blood shall drop out of wood, and the stone shall give his voice, and the people shall be troubled:

8:47 They are selling what does NOT belong to them, to buy death for EVERYONE. GOD owns the rain-forests and the whole planet.
8:48 These peoples have lived, quite happily, without all these goods, for thousands of years, so why should they NEED them now?

8:49 Where is the world going to take, all of its money, to buy OXYGEN, when there is none-left?

This reads remarkably like the global warming theorists' worldview.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

What I found interesting is that TWHOFTF was written in the mid 1980s but it has the social justice/ woke movement tone.
In a way before its time?

In all honesty, this makes me more suspicious. Rather than assuming a visionary (or the next incarnation of the messiah...), it makes me think of someone who has insider info and is tasked with disseminating it in attempts to normalize it.

Sort of similar to how much of the conspiracy material i read in the late 00s was intertwined with new age material and hints of social justice, years before "woke-ism" went mainstream.

It is frustrating because the man sometimes gives glimpses of insight and compassion. He then stuffs it up by inserting personal beliefs/ interpretation but tries to make it appear justified

I think it may be deliberate manipulation tactics...

I had another thought RE 8:43

8:43 Mahatma Gandhi understood all of this, and managed to defeat the British, without aggression, PEACEFULLY, by refusing to be materialistic, and teaching his people to go back to their old ways, and not to buy British goods, which caused terrible unemployment in Britain, and forced the British to give-in, to some of Gandhi’s wishes. Gandhi won, by playing the British at their own game, and hitting them where it hurts materialistic people, i.e. in their pockets.
To my understanding Mahatma Gandhi wanted his own country to gain INDEPENDENCE from the British colonisers.
That is a very different motive to "refusing to be materialistic".

e.g. using the word "materialistic" is deliberate. It is what is often called a value-laden or judgemental word.

The judgemental/ legalistic tone is something that consistently out-of-step with the New Age belief systems.

Regarding ajh's favorable mention of ghandi, perhaps this information is relevant, perhaps not, but i decided to include it just in case.

Ghandi was well aquainted with theosophists

Mohandas Gandhi was closely acquainted with Madame Blavatsky herself, and her protege Annie Besant. He detailed meeting them and reading their books in his autobiography.

A little more about annie besant's views

In 1909, Leadbetter discovered a 12-year-old Indian boy named Jiddu Krishnamurti, who he believed was destined to be a “World Teacher,” and vehicle for an advanced spiritual entity which would prepare humanity for higher evolution called Lord Maitreya. Leadbetter said he was struck by the boy’s beautiful aura and took him under his wing.
Besant agreed the boy could be prepared to take on the spirit of Maitreya, who she believed was living in the remote Himalayas in a physical body too delicate to be exposed to the volatile human world. Besant also believed that Jesus of Nazareth had been trained for the same purpose by the Essenes and had allowed the Maitreya entity to overtake his physical body. Besant agreed with Leadbetter that Krishnamurti should be trained to be a similar holy vessel for another incarnation. Besant enrolled him in her esoteric school for boys and legally adopted Krishnamurti in 1910 with the permission of the child’s father. Yes, you read that correctly. An accused p***phile and his female occultist friend adopted a 12-year-old Indian boy so they could prepare him to be the human vessel for a spirit they believed was a sort of messiah, and the boy’s father agreed to this for some reason.

And fellow theosophist alice bailey

Like Besant, Bailey believed that the person of Jesus of Nazareth was a psychic vessel of sorts for an ascended master whom she called “the Christ,” but don’t confuse this with Christianity. Bailey’s teachings are anything but Christian. She was talking about the same entity as Besant but called it a different name. Bailey did not believe in the authenticity of the Bible, or the trinity. Instead, she agreed with Bailey that this messianic entity would return in another vessel who would be a student of the occult, and that this entity would usher in the Age of Aquarius. Bailey did not invent the term “New Age,” but she was instrumental in popularizing it

As the jahtruthers have been saying, it's not that Jesus Christ is reincarnated as ajh, it's that his body is a vessel of sorts for "Christ", which took over their body. Seems familiar...

All quotes from the book occult feminism by rachel wilson.

 

[JoChris]

In all honesty, this makes me more suspicious. Rather than assuming a visionary (or the next incarnation of the messiah...), it makes me think of someone who has insider info and is tasked with disseminating it in attempts to normalize it.

Sort of similar to how much of the conspiracy material i read in the late 00s was intertwined with new age material and hints of social justice, years before "woke-ism" went mainstream.

Yes it is becoming more and more questionable, from a spiritual worldview.
I think I was looking at it from a purely educational point of view.

I realised afterwards I had forgotten to allow for possible revisions/ additions to the text.
From beginning of the ebook: (Revised - 1988; 1995; 2002, 2011 & 2014)
"The way home or face the fire" version - archive.org is from 2002.

If any apologists/ critics do ever decide to address this cult I would recommend getting hold of the 1986 print edition if at all possible to see if any modifications have been made.

I think it may be deliberate manipulation tactics...

I must have taken my cynical glasses off for a little while.
Oh to be an ex-insider or a close acquaintance of the man.
There is so much conflicting information/ impressions throughout the ebook!!!

Regarding ajh's favorable mention of ghandi, perhaps this information is relevant, perhaps not, but i decided to include it just in case.

Ghandi was well aquainted with theosophists



A little more about annie besant's views


And fellow theosophist alice bailey



As the jahtruthers have been saying, it's not that Jesus Christ is reincarnated as ajh, it's that his body is a vessel of sorts for "Christ", which took over their body. Seems familiar...

All quotes from the book occult feminism by rachel wilson.

The more I look into the subject the more I am amazed at how similar in some aspects "the way home or face the fire" sounds to what I am learning about Western esotericism. It is a field that is new to me, so if anyone has insight/ past experiences with alternative religious beliefs please share your knowledge!!!

 

[JoChris]

Now for a public declaration that I was wrong on an important theological matter that @ToxicFemininitySucks touched upon in her entry.
For the past few days I have been reading other books addressing conspiracy theorists, UFO believers and new western culture cults e.g. Q Anon supporters. I realised I have been looking at JAHtruth as if it was a religion that borrows EASTERN religions' doctrines e.g. Hinduism and AJH did a messy patchwork quilt job with multiple religions.

---
I have participated on the forum a great deal with JAHtruth's chief propagandist A Freeman, and due to his pro-reincarnation threads PLUS his claims that AJH is Jesus/ Prince Michael I assumed that what is presented in the following poster was only a poor attempt to fool people (who have some familiarity with Christian teachings but are not Christian).

https://deuteronomy4verse2.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/christ-messiah-mahdi-is-here-now-reposted-improved/



I had assumed that the JAHtruth religion was either knowingly or accidentally trying to make the idea of reincarnation more palatable to people who would otherwise reject reincarnation outright.

I had looked at the statement "Christ/ Messiah/ Muad'di(b) using the body born in Sheffield" and I jumped to conclusions that claim equalled reincarnation as taught by Eastern religions.

I believe now I was giving Anthony John Hill the benefit of the doubt, I was being too kind by dismissing the man as delusional, trying to blend Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs with Christianity, Islam and a mixmash of other religions' doctrines.

To be frank, the idea that a man who claimed to be Christ but instead had "heard" from "God" in a similar manner to spiritists/ channelers and had received the revelation in his mind he was in fact (a type of) Christ was extremely disturbing to me.

I didn't want to believe that a man who APPEARS to claim we should follow the bible's commandments exactly (will TWHOFTF ever clearly state what that means?) was in fact an occultist of the Western Esotericism variety.

The more I research, the more I am disturbed that the man could possibly convince others he is "Jesus using a new body".

He must have a seducing spirit. Understanding the seducing spirit - Grace to you.

... Do I need to remind you that all false religion and all idols propagate demon doctrine and are energized by seducing demon spirits? False religion is the playground of demons. Second Corinthians tells us that in chapter 11 Satan and his angels disguised themselves as angels of light and become the purveyors of religion. They call men to worship here or there, this system or that system, this idol or that idol; but behind the system and behind the idol are demons. Idols are more than just carved images, false religions are more than just systems of belief, they are demon-energized from the very start.

 

[JoChris]

This is for my sake as well as others, believe me!!! http://www.slideserve.com/jenna/religions-of-the-world-an-overview

JAHtruth seems to be 50/ 50 between the two charts.
e.g. I had noticed in TWHOFTF there has been absolutely no sign of beliefs of minor gods/ impersonal god.

 

[JoChris]

In the earlier threads I had mentioned TWHOFTF showing all the signs of Gnosticism and Esoteric Christianity, however I believed the issue of the bible verses being so badly taken out of context had to be addressed. As a result the subject was put aside.

Now TWHOFTF is generally no longer trying to hide behind bible/ quran verses and is showing AJH's beliefs more openly, I will aim to show the true foundations of JAHtruth from now on.

Esoteric Christianity - Got questions

Esoteric means “requiring special knowledge to understand; designed for only a select few.” Esoteric Christianity, then, would be a version of “Christianity” that can only be understood or practiced by those who have been properly initiated in secret knowledge. Esoteric Christianity teaches that Christianity is a mystery religion and that only a small minority of people ever achieve the enlightenment necessary to crack the arcane teachings of the Bible and truly know God.

Esotericism has more in common with Gnosticism, Theosophy, and Rosicrucianism than genuine biblical Christianity. Esoteric Christianity operates from the false premise that only a small group of people have access to the inner workings of the Christian faith. This is rather preposterous considering that the gospel of Christianity has and is spreading to even the remotest parts of the earth (Acts 1:8).....

--
This is a pro-esoteric Christianity link I gave in another thread. The subtle snootiness really is annoying.

If anyone watches the above video, please contrast it with what Jesus said.

18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[JoChris]

Blue - more doctrinal statements, green - direct personal communication.

8:50 First you send in missionaries, to teach them Satan’s religions, and about all the wonderful inventions, and teach them possessiveness, and convince them that they own the land, and then, that they need to become materialistic, and then they are HOOKED.

The stage is then set for Satan to lead them on his merry dance into “The Fire”, with you.

That is a strong claim that "missionaries teach Satan's religions". Christian missionaries aim to spread the Gospel and as a result convert people into Christians.
That sounds like TWHOFTF is claiming Christianity is a Satanic religion!!!!

8:51 The ONLY thing that you NEED is GOD, and to survive and go home, and anything else is a want, NOT a NEED.

8:52 Before you buy anything, ask yourself, if it will help your spiritual growth, and help you to go home. If it won’t help you to be able to go home, you DON’T NEED it.

That is a good general statement, it sounds compatible with most religions' beliefs.

 

[JoChris]

The following section shows that AJH has some extremist environmentalist leanings.

First, please compare it to what God said to Adam and Eve:

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Commentary on Genesis 1:26-28 - Matthew Henry

Man was made last of all the creatures: this was both an honour and a favour to him. Yet man was made the same day that the beasts were; his body was made of the same earth with theirs; and while he is in the body, he inhabits the same earth with them. God forbid that by indulging the body, and the desires of it, we should make ourselves like the beasts that perish! Man was to be a creature different from all that had been hitherto made. Flesh and spirit, heaven and earth, must be put together in him. God said, "Let us make man."

---
Don’t let Satan con you!

8:53 You did not come here to destroy and pollute nature, and exterminate the animals; you came here to learn to be good. Man is trying to destroy nature, and the day that he succeeds, you are all dead, and you all think you are sane. This planet belongs to God and the animals, NOT to you, and the animals have more right to be here, than you do. It is THEIR home, NOT yours, and they have the RIGHT to survive.

8:54 The animals are not polluting, and trying to destroy nature and themselves, or you. Neither do they poison themselves with smoking, drinking alcohol and taking drugs.

YOU are the only ones STUPID enough to do that, and you have the audacity to call them, DUMB animals, and to think that you are better than them, and that you have more right to be here than they do.

Today's Christians generally agree we are to be good stewards of the Earth.

TWHOFTF's putting people and animals on the same level sounds like a mixture between paganism, atheism and radical environmentalism. It is easy to imagine a JAHtruther becoming an animal rights activist.

animal rights - Wikipedia

Animal rights is the philosophy according to which many or all sentient animals have moral worth independent of their utility to humans, and that their most basic interests—such as avoiding suffering—should be afforded the same consideration as similar interests of human beings.[2] Broadly speaking, and particularly in popular discourse, the term "animal rights" is often used synonymously with "animal protection" or "animal liberation".....

Multiple cultural traditions around the world such as Jainism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto and Animism also espouse forms of animal rights.

 

[JoChris]

Ghandi was well aquainted with theosophists



A little more about annie besant's views


And fellow theosophist alice bailey



As the jahtruthers have been saying, it's not that Jesus Christ is reincarnated as ajh, it's that his body is a vessel of sorts for "Christ", which took over their body. Seems familiar...

All quotes from the book occult feminism by rachel wilson.

It appears that Theosophy is at the foundations of modern Western esotericism and Gnosticism. I need to do a lot more research on it; I have read it mentioned at times in books warning about the New World Order a lot.
There are a quite few older books warning about the religion itself on archive.org.

I know I have given the link before, but the show is worth listening to for those who have the time.

 

[JoChris]

What arrogance and stupidity!

8:55 You are evil, they aren’t, and they are better than you, and when you have been destroyed, they will still be alive (Gen. 8:21 & Ezekiel 39:17-20).
Misquoted as usual.
Genesis chapter 8
Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ezekiel chapter 39. Concentrate on verses 17-22.
....22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

Animals only kill to eat, and in self-defence, as God intended.

They do not kill for “pleasure”, like you evil creatures do. LEARN from the animals and nature, like the Indians did, and become environmentalists.

 

[JoChris]

When you read the following please keep this in mind:
TWHOFTF's author is claiming to be Jesus inhabiting a new body (i.e. Anthony John Hill is the host, born in Sussex 1948).

8:56 In spiritual and therefore REAL matters of life, the Indians were hundreds of years in FRONT of the white-man. Unfortunately, the white-man was ahead of the Indians in technology. The bow and arrow was no match for the gun.

8:57 The Indians were friendly and honourable,

It would be interesting to compare 8:57 with the words written by early settlers/ missionaries/ historians who actually had to interact/ live with the American Indians.
All cultures have their good and bad side after all.

and a God-fearing people (The Great White Spirit - which He really is, showing that the Indians were ahead of the white-man in spiritual-matters), respecting and worshipping Wakan Tanka - The Great White Spirit, also known as Manitou.

Great Spirit - Wikipedia
The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota,[1][need quotation to verify] Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.....

This statement was interesting....

Due to perceived similarities between the Great Spirit and the Christian concept of God, colonial European missionaries frequently used such existing beliefs as a means of introducing indigenous Americans to Christianity and encouraging conversion.[4]...

but read a bit lower (the missionaries must have sometimes jumped to a positive conclusion way too quickly!).

Numerous individuals are held to have been "speakers" for the Great Spirit; persons believed to serve as an earthly mediator responsible for facilitating communication between humans and the supernatural more generally. Such a speaker is generally considered to have an obligation to preserve the spiritual traditions of their respective lineage.[6] The Great Spirit is looked to by spiritual leaders for guidance by individuals as well as communities at large.[7]

---

 

[JoChris]

The following section is very peculiar, considering AJH spent the time creating his own bible/ quran "translation".

8:58 The Indians appreciated spiritual, and not worldly values, owning only the necessities of life, and moving FREELY about, on GOD’s land. They moved South in the Winter, and North in the Summer, searching-out the best climatic-conditions to live in.

8:59 The Indians did not have the audacity, to say that they OWNED the land, because they KNEW that it belonged to God, NOT them, and that God graciously allowed them to live on it, and provided them with food, water and the means to create shelter.

8:60 When the white-men asked the Indians to sell them some of “their” land, the Indians laughed at them, but; being friendly and not wanting to upset or offend their new friends; they humoured the “simple-minded” white-men; agreed to accept their money and play their silly game, because it seemed to make them feel better, and happier.

A man who claims "the way home or face the fire" is the only way to be saved is singing the praises of the American Indians, portraying them as being superior/ correct compared to the white-men?!!!

It shouldn't need to be said, but just in case:
AJH has provided no evidence at all to support his romanticized portrayal of the American Indians' interactions with new settlers. We are just supposed to take TWHOFTF's word for it.

Frankly it reads more like a comic book story than a serious book.

 

[Maldarker]

I know i posted this in another thread but....

Do you actually know any natives @A Freeman ? Your off the mark on this one. I live in an area that is all native american...and studied the culture most of my life...they sure where one with nature running whole herds of buffalo off cliffs or burning down whole forest areas to push out tribes that weren't nomadic - don't go there. They have the same issue every person on this planet does and that is they need THE TRUE GOD CHRIST JESUS not whatever you think it is or what you think they where worshipping - grasping at straws now are we not.

And i will add how about the evil tribes did to each other or the fact they where slavers of their own people. Yup best example of humanity right there. LOL nope they have the same problem all of us do. Its a world problem bro and the native americans suffer from it like the rest of humanity and that would be sin and a sinful nature. Thats the nature they follow.

 

[JoChris]

I know i posted this in another thread but....

Do you actually know any natives @A Freeman ? Your off the mark on this one. I live in an area that is all native american...and studied the culture most of my life...they sure where one with nature running whole herds of buffalo off cliffs or burning down whole forest areas to push out tribes that weren't nomadic - don't go there. They have the same issue every person on this planet does and that is they need THE TRUE GOD CHRIST JESUS not whatever you think it is or what you think they where worshipping - grasping at straws now are we not.

And i will add how about the evil tribes did to each other or the fact they where slavers of their own people. Yup best example of humanity right there. LOL nope they have the same problem all of us do. Its a world problem bro and the native americans suffer from it like the rest of humanity and that would be sin and a sinful nature. Thats the nature they follow.

I would love you to give your own quick commentary on the Indian segments in TWHOFTF, since you obviously know the people personally!

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

8:50 First you send in missionaries, to teach them Satan’s religions, and about all the wonderful inventions, and teach them possessiveness, and convince them that they own the land, and then, that they need to become materialistic, and then they are HOOKED.

The stage is then set for Satan to lead them on his merry dance into “The Fire”, with you.

That is a strong claim that "missionaries teach Satan's religions". Christian missionaries aim to spread the Gospel and as a result convert people into Christians.
That sounds like TWHOFTF is claiming Christianity is a Satanic religion!!!!

In this statement i think ajh is using the strawman of Christianity= roman catholicism. When denouncing Christinanity, freeman often uses the example of catholicism, and all it's unbiblical errors, to prove his point that Christianity is somehow satanic.

I am unsure if there were protestant missionaries in early american history or if the settlers were immigrating only for their own religious freedom, but the catholic missionaries, particularly to the west coast, are well known.

This statement was interesting....

Due to perceived similarities between the Great Spirit and the Christian concept of God, colonial European missionaries frequently used such existing beliefs as a means of introducing indigenous Americans to Christianity and encouraging conversion.[4]...

but read a bit lower (the missionaries must have sometimes jumped to a positive conclusion way too quickly!).

Numerous individuals are held to have been "speakers" for the Great Spirit; persons believed to serve as an earthly mediator responsible for facilitating communication between humans and the supernatural more generally. Such a speaker is generally considered to have an obligation to preserve the spiritual traditions of their respective lineage.[6] The Great Spirit is looked to by spiritual leaders for guidance by individuals as well as communities at large.[7]

---

Somewhat related, whether purposely or not, it seems the (catholic) missionaries were ok with native indigenous people keeping some of their beliefs and mixing them in with Christianity, so long as they were baptized catholic and could be counted towards the number of catholics.

This is still going on to a certain degree, with the acceptability of some kind of fertility deity called pachamama in south american indigenous catholicism.

Pachamama - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After the Spanish colonization of the Americas, they converted the native populations of the region to Roman Catholicism. Due to religious syncretism, the figure of the Virgin Mary was associated with that of the Pachamama for many of the indigenous people.[4]
...
Marzal also states that for some Andeans, Pachamama retains an "intermediary role" between God and man within a primarily Catholic framework similar to that of the saints.[15] Some ethnographic scholars have also noted a syncretic identification of Pachamama with the Virgin Mary.[16] Pachamama is sometimes syncretized as the Virgin of Candelaria.[17]

But given the syncreticism with elements of paganism from very early on (like diana of the ephesians), it is not so surprising that missionaries allowed this for the sake of conversions.

Anyway, it's odd. On the one hand catholic missionaries are spreading their "satanic religion", on the other hand worshipping God as the great white spirit is fine?

 

[JoChris]

In this statement i think ajh is using the strawman of Christianity= roman catholicism. When denouncing Christinanity, freeman often uses the example of catholicism, and all it's unbiblical errors, to prove his point that Christianity is somehow satanic.

You make great points. I expect that TWHOFTF will continue to muddle the two, and attempt to make Christianity (all different types of denominations) = Roman Catholic Church (the institution + many extrabiblical traditions and doctrines) because that suits his agenda.

The difference between Protestantism/ Baptist church and the RCC is massive in many areas. The Nicene Creed is something all Christians would agree upon though.

If TWHOFTF ever actually agrees with unique RCC teachings I will most certainly point it out!

I am unsure if there were protestant missionaries in early american history or if the settlers were immigrating only for their own religious freedom, but the catholic missionaries, particularly to the west coast, are well known.


Somewhat related, whether purposely or not, it seems the (catholic) missionaries were ok with native indigenous people keeping some of their beliefs and mixing them in with Christianity, so long as they were baptized catholic and could be counted towards the number of catholics.

This is still going on to a certain degree, with the acceptability of some kind of fertility deity called pachamama in south american indigenous catholicism.

Pachamama - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But given the syncreticism with elements of paganism from very early on (like diana of the ephesians), it is not so surprising that missionaries allowed this for the sake of conversions.

Anyway, it's odd. On the one hand catholic missionaries are spreading their "satanic religion", on the other hand worshipping God as the great white spirit is fine?

I was under the impression that Protestants and Baptists fled Europe to USA due to persecution and so the first white settlers (and therefore missionaries) wouldn't have been Catholics.
Americans, please correct me if I am wrong there.

Of course multiple immigrants means all types of people would have ended up in USA, good, bad and everything in between. That would have naturally resulted in conflict between immigrants and "first nations people"! In Australian history it follows a similar pattern.

The difference I have seen between RCC in western nations and South American countries looks massive.

RE the claim that Christianity (really RCC) is bad, but native American paganism = good, IMO it shows what side of the fence AJH really is.

 

[JoChris]

Sentences spaced for easier reading:

8:61 How can people OWN land? It belongs to God! How have people managed to pay God, for their title-deeds? Why do people always want to own things? The more you own, the more problems you have.

The more you have, the more there is to protect from thieves, or to clean, or to go wrong and to have to have repaired, or to be replaced.

It is SELF-perpetuating and a vicious-circle, eventually turning the materialistic person into a SLAVE, to his own possessions, and their maintenance and perpetual increase.

You CAN break the circle and get OFF the treadmill, if you WANT to. You do not own your possessions; they own you.

The love of money is the root of evil, Simplicity is the best way! Always seek the simple things of life.

8:62 It is NOT the man who has the MOST that is rich; but the man who NEEDS the LEAST.

The man who needs the least is rich, because he has more freedom - not being a SLAVE to material possessions (mammon) - and he does not have to slave-his-life-away, to obtain material objects that he can never keep, either for himself or his wife.

IMO what was written can be read from a glass half-full or glass half-empty perspective.

TWHOFTF sings the praises of a simple life, and that is something many readers would agree with.

It also has a faint monastic tone - the more spiritual a person is, the more simply a person will live.

Many non-Christian religions also support asceticism and self-sacrifice.

8:63 Nothing in this world lasts for ever, and nothing is perfect, as an incentive, to leave the things of this world, and go home, where things are perfect; and live for ever.

I agree. We live in a fallen world.

 

[JoChris]

It should not need to be said, but just in case:
If any person says the following about Jesus, there is no way they can be called a Christian!!

8:64 Even Jesus was not perfect, whilst he was in this world, and he said so openly (Matt. 19:17 & Luke 18:19).
TWHOFTF is cult-quoting as usual.
Matthew 19:16-26, (same story) Luke 18:18-27

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

AJH is pretending that Jesus said "I am not good (or perfect)".
AJH is either lying there or he is proving he has been incredibly deceived by Satan @A Freeman.

The bible says Jesus was without sin. That means Jesus was perfectly holy and perfectly good ....

10 bible verses about Jesus' sinlessness

8:65 It is not possible to be absolutely perfect, whilst wearing a human-animal-body, with all the temptation of this world.
8:66 The fact, that even Jesus was not perfect, should give everyone more encouragement, to strive harder, to be like him.
That looks like a statement of faith.

That contradicts Christianity's Gospel.

If AJH actually believed the bible, he would admit that he could never live up to Jesus' standards.
Romans chapter 3

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.